Murtha on Gitmo

They are POWs. Bush was wrong. We all know that - heck, he even knows it. Trials are the result of his mistake. They need to be re-classified as POWs and locked away, not tried for something that will be almost impossible to prove. Who keeps evidence with a proper chain of custody in a war zone?

If you think that we can classify a prisoner one way to get what we like, then reclassify him and keep him forever, and get any rational country, friend or foe, to accept the silly notion that America somehow holds the moral high ground on anything, then you're sadly mistaken.

Plain and simple, Bush blew it.
 
The only reason I get concern Mr. Man is because we have been parading that "spreading of democracy" line to justify every questionable thing we do.

I too have no love for these nut cases but we can't spread some thing we don't practice.

So if we are going to say we opposed torture, then that means we don't get to indiscrimately torture people when we feel the need. If we are going to declare a war on terrorism that we can't change the designation just because we all of a sudden don't like the Geneva convention. If we are at war then these people are POW's are should be treated as such.

Why not just stop the torture at Gitmo then? I really don't see the need to close it. Just do housekeeping on the staff, change policies and start from scratch.

:lmao: I missed that in your location!

Then, we agree....West Virginia it is! :rotfl:

Cool, WV it is. We'll call it the Robert C. Byrd POW, or maybe not-POW, Detention Center. Heck, everything else in the state is named after him. lol
 





Looks like YOU mentioned Mc Cain..Now who's memory is failing! :rolleyes:


I meant McCain in general (not his opinions on Gitmo) prior to the election mainly during the debates!! I am sure you read those threads and there were many times Obama supporters claimed he had dementia and all I was saying was maybe they to just did not agree with his answers. Anyway what happened to your avatar picture of the horse? I liked it and I am sad it is gone!:(
 

I meant McCain in general (not his opinions on Gitmo) prior to the election mainly during the debates!! I am sure you read those threads and there were many times Obama supporters claimed he had dementia and all I was saying was maybe they to just did not agree with his answers. Anyway what happened to your avatar picture of the horse? I liked it and I am sad it is gone!:(

I didn't have a horse...had a donkey named Eyeore.
 
If you think that we can classify a prisoner one way to get what we like, then reclassify him and keep him forever, and get any rational country, friend or foe, to accept the silly notion that America somehow holds the moral high ground on anything, then you're sadly mistaken.

Plain and simple, Bush blew it.
Agreed, but I am not interested in holding anything that the world might consider the moral high ground. We are in a war. The only imperative is winning that war. Consider the alternative. If we made a mistake, own up to it - but don't compound it by trying to put these people on trial when you know you cannot win those trials and you know they are a danger to America.
 
I happen to think this is a slap in the face of every victim of 9/11 to want to bring them to Pennsylvania. I'm sure if you asked the people he REPRESENTS if they'd like to house the very people who proudly claim responsibility for killing their own friends and families, you'd see he was not REPRESENTING the overwhelming majority of his constituents. If you recall, he represented Shankesville PA on 9/11/01.

I hope every single person living in his district bombards his offices with angry calls, emails, and letters.

I don't believe for a moment that this has anything to do with anything other than another attempt to funnel federal funds into his backyard.

Utterly disgusting, if you ask me.

These people do NOT deserve to be covered by the constitution. Do all of you who are crying foul for these people not realize that they still intend to do harm to the citizens of the USA? Do you not also realize that to give them a trial through our pubilc courts would compromise countless intellingence operations, force the release of classified information to the general public, and disclose all kinds of information that has been used to thwart further terrorist attacks? If you don't think this is a problem, why don't you just paint a big red target on any one of our soldiers, and send them out into these hostile countries unarmed and unprotected with a sign that says "kill me".

I don't give a rat's behind if some other country is displeased with us for using whatever intelligence we can gather to keep our citizens safe. I'm not in support of putting ourselves at risk just to appease other countries. Obviously they don't want these people either. Heck, their own countries don't want them back. I think they need to stay right where they are.
 
Now closing Gitmo within a year is an executive order. It seems that politics has trumped national security. Where are the adults? :confused3
 
Now closing Gitmo within a year is an executive order. It seems that politics has trumped national security. Where are the adults? :confused3

You knew it was only a matter of time, Dawn. Regardless of who won the presidency, it was going to happen.
 
One other point about Gitmo - it provided a level of security not possible in American prisons. That is what made it so important. We could keep them from communicating with ANYONE. When they are moved into American prisons, they will get visitors. What harm can they do in prison? Depends on the person and their affiliations. What harm can they do from Gitmo - none...
 
Having only read the OP, where SHOULD they go? If Gitmo is closed they have to be housed somewhere. Why not PA? :confused3

Hey, why not West Virginia??? They have to go somewhere. ;)

John Murtha is an idiot. He almost makes me embarrassed to be a Pennsylvanian. Almost. Then, I remember I don't support the guy. :sad2:

Michelle :flower3:

:lmao: I missed that in your location!

Then, we agree....West Virginia it is! :rotfl:

How about the maximum security prison goes *wherever* Murtha's domicile actually is. I doubt he really lives in his district much anyway, most probably has a house in the DC-area and visits his supposedly racist and redneck constituency as little as possible.

I had forgotten that Shanksville is within Murtha's district.

If it's put into West Virginia, maybe they can put it on one of those topped-off mountains that are being strip-mined for coal. Nothing else will grow there.

And *yes*, I know that strip-mines are supposedly 'reclaimed'...hahahahaha...have you ever seen what comes back on the land after it is so disturbed? I have. And close-up?... it ain't pretty.
So if the land that is left is useless for future logging or pretty much anything else, then maybe it should at least generate some income for the people left behind.

agnes!
 
Well, I think we're seeing the "Obama style" emerging.... "Big on symbolism, and short on substance."

While it's true that both Bush and McCain had signaled that things were starting to wind down at Gitmo and should be closed soon and so this is not a new notion, Obama has decided apparently to go ahead with the idea sooner rather than later. But he's not provided any of the important details other than "when". The need for instant symbolism has trumped the need for "who, what, and most importantly... WHERE!". The fact that he's also stopped the prosecution clock at Gitmo for 1/3 or more of the remaining time the detention center will remain open all but insures that un-tried prisoners will have to be transported and housed in the mainland. Even the ObamaChannel (MSNBC) today was lamenting the 10s of millions of dollars that will be likely spent to prepare a separate place for them at a likely existing military prison where they won't be allowed to mix with the other inmates. On top of that, other internal facilities will likely be built to provide services to the detainees so they won't have to be transported to local hospitals or the general prison medical ward for care. Other than "Mad" Jack ("My constituents are Rednecks") Murtha, no politician in a likely location (Kansas, California, or South Carolina) has expressed an interest in hosting the new detention center... and it's likely that the local voters (nationally, polls show that people don't want the Gitmo detainees brought here) won't be too happy either. It appears that Obama's applying the "global test" here in this decision.

As for the other "breaking from the Bush Administration" executive orders today... more showmanship. The now-infamous "waterboarding" hasn't been used since 2003 and the long term detention by the CIA of terror suspects was previously ended by Bush a few year ago also. It'll also be interesting to find out (hello, NYT!) if the reports from last week came to pass about a likely classified loophole in the "no more torture" order that would allow the CIA to deviate from the Army Field Manual for interrogations if the information they were seeking was really, really, important (in another words, exactly how the Bush Administration did things).
 
Well, I think we're seeing the "Obama style" emerging.... "Big on symbolism, and short on substance."

While it's true that both Bush and McCain had signaled that things were starting to wind down at Gitmo and should be closed soon and so this is not a new notion, Obama has decided apparently to go ahead with the idea sooner rather than later. But he's not provided any of the important details other than "when". The need for instant symbolism has trumped the need for "who, what, and most importantly... WHERE!". The fact that he's also stopped the prosecution clock at Gitmo for 1/3 or more of the remaining time the detention center will remain open all but insures that un-tried prisoners will have to be transported and housed in the mainland. Even the ObamaChannel (MSNBC) today was lamenting the 10s of millions of dollars that will be likely spent to prepare a separate place for them at a likely existing military prison where they won't be allowed to mix with the other inmates. On top of that, other internal facilities will likely be built to provide services to the detainees so they won't have to be transported to local hospitals or the general prison medical ward for care. Other than "Mad" Jack ("My constituents are Rednecks") Murtha, no politician in a likely location (Kansas, California, or South Carolina) has expressed an interest in hosting the new detention center... and it's likely that the local voters (nationally, polls show that people don't want the Gitmo detainees brought here) won't be too happy either. It appears that Obama's applying the "global test" here in this decision.

As for the other "breaking from the Bush Administration" executive orders today... more showmanship. The now-infamous "waterboarding" hasn't been used since 2003 and the long term detention by the CIA of terror suspects was previously ended by Bush a few year ago also. It'll also be interesting to find out (hello, NYT!) if the reports from last week came to pass about a likely classified loophole in the "no more torture" order that would allow the CIA to deviate from the Army Field Manual for interrogations if the information they were seeking was really, really, important (in another words, exactly how the Bush Administration did things).


Well said. I am guessing that most states would prefer to have a nuclear waste storage facility rather than the Gitmo detainees, who by the way, get excellent care right where they are.
 
That wouldn't be the same fat piece of garbage Murtha that accused our troops of being cold-blooded killers before they were given a trial would it ? The were all exonerated, BTW, and Murtha has not apologized for his venom.
 
Well, I think we're seeing the "Obama style" emerging.... "Big on symbolism, and short on substance."

While it's true that both Bush and McCain had signaled that things were starting to wind down at Gitmo and should be closed soon and so this is not a new notion, Obama has decided apparently to go ahead with the idea sooner rather than later. But he's not provided any of the important details other than "when". The need for instant symbolism has trumped the need for "who, what, and most importantly... WHERE!". The fact that he's also stopped the prosecution clock at Gitmo for 1/3 or more of the remaining time the detention center will remain open all but insures that un-tried prisoners will have to be transported and housed in the mainland. Even the ObamaChannel (MSNBC) today was lamenting the 10s of millions of dollars that will be likely spent to prepare a separate place for them at a likely existing military prison where they won't be allowed to mix with the other inmates. On top of that, other internal facilities will likely be built to provide services to the detainees so they won't have to be transported to local hospitals or the general prison medical ward for care. Other than "Mad" Jack ("My constituents are Rednecks") Murtha, no politician in a likely location (Kansas, California, or South Carolina) has expressed an interest in hosting the new detention center... and it's likely that the local voters (nationally, polls show that people don't want the Gitmo detainees brought here) won't be too happy either. It appears that Obama's applying the "global test" here in this decision.

As for the other "breaking from the Bush Administration" executive orders today... more showmanship. The now-infamous "waterboarding" hasn't been used since 2003 and the long term detention by the CIA of terror suspects was previously ended by Bush a few year ago also. It'll also be interesting to find out (hello, NYT!) if the reports from last week came to pass about a likely classified loophole in the "no more torture" order that would allow the CIA to deviate from the Army Field Manual for interrogations if the information they were seeking was really, really, important (in another words, exactly how the Bush Administration did things).

I've been discussing this in another thread. In the executive order, he has created a task force with a mission to:

to study and evaluate whether the interrogation practices and techniques in Army Field Manual 2‑22.3, when employed by departments or agencies outside the military, provide an appropriate means of acquiring the intelligence necessary to protect the Nation, and, if warranted, to recommend any additional or different guidance for other departments or agencies

He is expressly leaving the door open to additional techniques not covered in the Field Manual, if necessary.

And in other news - hopefully this will cause at least some folks to pause and realize the Gitmo issue isn't going to be easily solved and has very grave implications for our future safety:

From the NYTimes tonight.
Freed by U.S., Saudi Becomes a Qaeda Chief
By ROBERT F. WORTH
Published: January 22, 2009
BEIRUT, Lebanon — The emergence of a former Guantánamo Bay detainee as the deputy leader of Al Qaeda’s Yemeni branch has underscored the potential complications in carrying out the executive order President Obama signed Thursday that the detention center be shut down within a year.

The militant, Said Ali al-Shihri, is suspected of involvement in a deadly bombing of the United States Embassy in Yemen’s capital, Sana, in September. He was released to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and passed through a Saudi rehabilitation program for former jihadists before resurfacing with Al Qaeda in Yemen.

His status was announced in an Internet statement by the militant group and was confirmed by an American counterterrorism official.

“They’re one and the same guy,” said the official, who insisted on anonymity because he was discussing an intelligence analysis. “He returned to Saudi Arabia in 2007, but his movements to Yemen remain unclear.”

The development came as Republican legislators criticized the plan to close the Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, detention camp in the absence of any measures for dealing with current detainees. But it also helps explain why the new administration wants to move cautiously, taking time to work out a plan to cope with the complications.

Almost half the camp’s remaining detainees are Yemenis, and efforts to repatriate them depend in part on the creation of a Yemeni rehabilitation program — partly financed by the United States — similar to the Saudi one. Saudi Arabia has claimed that no graduate of its program has returned to terrorism.

“The lesson here is, whoever receives former Guantánamo detainees needs to keep a close eye on them,” the American official said.

Although the Pentagon has said that dozens of released Guantánamo detainees have “returned to the fight,” its claim is difficult to document, and has been met with skepticism. In any case, few of the former detainees, if any, are thought to have become leaders of a major terrorist organization like Al Qaeda in Yemen, a mostly homegrown group that experts say has been reinforced by foreign fighters.

Long considered a haven for jihadists, Yemen, a desperately poor country in the southern corner of the Arabian Peninsula, has witnessed a rising number of attacks over the past year. American officials say they suspect that Mr. Shihri may have been involved in the car bombings outside the American Embassy in Sana last September that killed 16 people, including six attackers.

In the Internet statement, Al Qaeda in Yemen identified its new deputy leader as Abu Sayyaf al-Shihri, saying he returned from Guantánamo to his native Saudi Arabia and then traveled to Yemen “more than 10 months ago.” That corresponds roughly to the return of Mr. Shihri, a Saudi who was released from Guantánamo in November 2007. Abu Sayyaf is a nom de guerre, commonly used by jihadists in place of their real name or first name.

A Saudi security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Mr. Shihri had disappeared from his home in Saudi Arabia last year after finishing the rehabilitation program.

A Yemeni journalist who interviewed Al Qaeda’s leaders in Yemen last year, Abdulela Shaya, confirmed Thursday that the deputy leader was indeed Mr. Shihri, the former Guantánamo detainee. Mr. Shaya, in a phone interview, said Mr. Shihri had described to him his journey from Cuba to Yemen and supplied his Guantánamo detention number, 372. That is the correct number, Pentagon documents show.

“It seems certain from all the sources we have that this is the same individual who was released from Guantánamo in 2007,” said Gregory Johnsen, a terrorism analyst and the editor of a forthcoming book, “Islam and Insurgency in Yemen.”

Mr. Shihri, 35, trained in urban warfare tactics at a camp north of Kabul, Afghanistan, according to documents released by the Pentagon as part of his Guantánamo dossier. Two weeks after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, he traveled to Afghanistan via Bahrain and Pakistan, and he later told American investigators that his intention was to do relief work, the documents say. He was wounded in an airstrike and spent a month and a half recovering in a hospital in Pakistan.

The documents state that Mr. Shihri met with a group of “extremists” in Iran and helped them get into Afghanistan. They also say he was accused of trying to arrange the assassination of a writer, in accordance with a fatwa, or religious order, issued by an extremist cleric.

However, under a heading describing reasons for Mr. Shihri’s possible release from Guantánamo, the documents say he claimed that he traveled to Iran “to purchase carpets for his store” in Saudi Arabia. They also say that he denied knowledge of any terrorists or terrorist activities, and that he “related that if released, he would like to return to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, wherein he would reunite with his family.”

“The detainee stated he would attempt to work at his family’s furniture store if it is still in business,” the documents say.

The Yemeni branch of Al Qaeda has carried out a number of terrorist attacks over the past year, culminating in the assault on the American Embassy in Sana on Sept. 16. In that assault, the attackers disguised themselves as Yemeni policemen and detonated two car bombs. The group has also begun releasing sophisticated Internet material, in what appears to be a bid to gain more recruits.
 
While I agree somewhat with the decision to close GITMO, I feel America's security should come first.

I hope and pray our politicians make the right decisions on this matter. They are batting "0" in my eyes on decision making.

As far as Murtha go I think he's off his rocker.

With a new administration who's promised change lets hope the change doesn't come back to Haunt.
 
This is the biggest mistake of Obama's presidency. He is starting the process to release cold blooded murderers. Just a matter of time before one of them attacks us again.

Line em up and shoot them. Bums.
 


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