MS giving pushback on suggestion of point transfer???

wvalx

Mouseketeer
Joined
Jul 10, 2003
Messages
90
I called MS about availability at one of the resorts which is not my home and is beyond 7 months. She kindly informed me I couldn't make a reservation because my points are at HH. I told her yes I know but I was thinking about have points transferred into my account but I wanted to see if there was availability. Well it seems she really didn't like that answer as she told me the "easiest" way for them to make the reservation for me and there was consequences of transferring (1 for each of us). I told her I understand, but I would like to control the reservation. Well she REALLY didn't like that I said that and mumbled something about this being a taped conversation and what I said would raise red flags. She FINALLY said yes there was availability and I thanked her and hung up.

WTH??? Am I doing something wrong? Is it wrong to buy points to transfer?
 
Since have just joined DVC as of last week so I am still a little new. But I did do my research on DVC for over six months. Somehow I missed this in looking over all the paperwork. I guess based on the postings in the rent/trade board their are a lot of people "breaking" the rules. Since I saw all the postings that occur there I just assumed it could be done. I understand that this is one of the reason they went to one transfer per account rule a year or two ago from what I picked up in previous posts.

I will have some extra points due getting the developer points and also getting 07 points (June UY) that will I will bank into 08. I was planning on doing a point transfer to another member so I don't have to deal with renters since it is only 37 points. I guess I will have to rethink this now?
 

ok. I now understand. Thanks for the replies. I was in the same boat at seeing all the R/T board offers, thinking it must be ok. I guess my question is: what was the original intent of allowing transfers? To encourage families to sign up by giving the flexibility to "share" points.

Other than my parents and siblings I don't think I would be inclined to just give anyone my points.
 
I've done an incoming transfer (at least 100 points) every year for the past 3 years. MS has always been nice about it.

If they eventually go to a no-transfers-whatsoever rule they are going to find a lot of contracts dumped on the market.
 
Since have just joined DVC as of last week so I am still a little new. But I did do my research on DVC for over six months. Somehow I missed this in looking over all the paperwork. I guess based on the postings in the rent/trade board their are a lot of people "breaking" the rules. Since I saw all the postings that occur there I just assumed it could be done. I understand that this is one of the reason they went to one transfer per account rule a year or two ago from what I picked up in previous posts.

I will have some extra points due getting the developer points and also getting 07 points (June UY) that will I will bank into 08. I was planning on doing a point transfer to another member so I don't have to deal with renters since it is only 37 points. I guess I will have to rethink this now?

According to the rules you can't sell your transfered points but you can "give" ;) them to a friend. I don't know about you but I consider fellow DISers friends, and if my friend wants to give me a gift of money for my birthday, well. :cool1:
 
Since have just joined DVC as of last week so I am still a little new. But I did do my research on DVC for over six months. Somehow I missed this in looking over all the paperwork. I guess based on the postings in the rent/trade board their are a lot of people "breaking" the rules. Since I saw all the postings that occur there I just assumed it could be done. I understand that this is one of the reason they went to one transfer per account rule a year or two ago from what I picked up in previous posts.

I will have some extra points due getting the developer points and also getting 07 points (June UY) that will I will bank into 08. I was planning on doing a point transfer to another member so I don't have to deal with renters since it is only 37 points. I guess I will have to rethink this now?

I wouldn't rethink it, go ahead and do the transfer. I just did a transfer myself this week for points I won't need in my October 08 UY. The other member needed them to make an October reservation using the 11 month advantage. It worked out well! I don't have to worry about controlling someone else's reservation and the other member has the points and control herself. I highly recommend transfers to (or from) other members if it happens to work out for you that you have (or want) just the right number of points. That one transfer only per year does put a restriction on you though...
 
Tell them you are "Trading" points with the other member. They are transfering to you this year and you will transfer to them next year. That's all the information MS needs. The rest is your little secret.
 
Since have just joined DVC as of last week so I am still a little new. But I did do my research on DVC for over six months. Somehow I missed this in looking over all the paperwork. I guess based on the postings in the rent/trade board their are a lot of people "breaking" the rules. Since I saw all the postings that occur there I just assumed it could be done. I understand that this is one of the reason they went to one transfer per account rule a year or two ago from what I picked up in previous posts.

I will have some extra points due getting the developer points and also getting 07 points (June UY) that will I will bank into 08. I was planning on doing a point transfer to another member so I don't have to deal with renters since it is only 37 points. I guess I will have to rethink this now?

An explanation:

1. When you purchase DVC, you buy a real estate interest in a "unit." A unit is usually a group of rooms and the purchase is similar to purchasing a condominium. The rooms are called "vacation homes" in the official documents to distinguish them from the unit and the actual real estate purchase you make.

2. Points are deemed to be symbols that represent your real estate interest. The documents declare that points have no monetary value. Thus, though everyone perceives their points have value, from a legal standpoint, they have none. It is the real estate interest itself that has value.

3. To maintain that legal lack of any monetary value in points, the documents also declare that you cannot transfer points for value, in the form of money or otherwise. In other words, you cannot transfer points for money because such an act would be giving points a monetary value when they are deemed to have none.

4. However, the documents also declare that you can rent or lease any portion of your real estate interest subject to the rule against doing so for a "comercial purpose" and a commercial purpose can include a pattern of rental activity from which DVC could conclude that you are acting as a "commercial enterprise." Recently DVC adopted the 20 reservation rule creating a presumption that you are violating the commercial purpose rule if you make more than 20 reservations per year. That was an interpretive rule (and one allowed if it is "reasonable" to enforce the commercial purpose rule, which it would likely be found to be) to give DVC some objective test that DVC personnel could appy without trying figure out for themselves what is meant by commercial purpose. Note, it only creates a presumption so you can still try to show to them when you make that 21st reservation that you really aren't engaging in a pattern of rental activity. The number is so high that it really will not effect many people (my inquiry to DVC management came back with an explanation that they will be counting number of separate reservation numbers per year, and thus those who do day by day reservations will not be effected because they end up with one reservation number, and they will also be looking at whether the reservations are made in the owners name, i.e., someone who makes a lot reservations in their own name will not necessarily have those counted against them). The new rule also restates that you cannot transfer points for value.


5. They also decided recently that you cannot make more than one transfer per use year. That is actually not a new rule. From the start of DVC and then for most of the years of its existence, the rule was that you could make only one transfer per year. The rule allowing multiple transfers was a change made about four years ago and thus all they have done now is go back to the old rule.

6. Why the 20 reservation rule and reversion back to one transfer per use year? The internet is partly to blame. Without it, there would be no real rental market and thus no reason to be concerned about rentals. What was going on is that a market developed and there was at least the perception that there were a number who had essentially gone into the business of renting DVC, buying large numbers of points (circumventing total point limits of 2,000 per resort, 5,000 total, by having more than one person purchase) and renting all the time. Proof of the truth of that perception was at least that there appeared to be persons on the internet who were always offering rentals including on ebay and the rent portion of this site and there were many rental offers for hard to get times like Christmas time, meaning the renter was probably making numerous reservations for hard to get times at 11 months out and then renting that time. (Even this site recently changed its rules for posting rentals by prohibiting such if you attempt to post already existing reservations for a specific time far in advance of that time).

7. That perceived or real rental activity caused many to complain, particularly the activity of getting hard to get times and renting them out. For a long time DVC did nothing and possibly for a long time the problem was more of a perception rather than real problem. But at some point fairly recently, DVC must have concluded that it had a problem that needed some action. Some here have expressed the belief that DVC's latest rules were put into effect to protect Disney's own rental market. I think not. In any event, I know DVC would never admit that was the purpose. By law, DVC management is a fiduciary of the members and must act in the best interests of the members when creating any rules. If it said it took the recent action to protect Disney's own rental interests, it would be conceding that it breached its fiduciary obligations by acting in Disney's own interest rather than the interests of the members, subjecting it to the risk that any such rules could be voided and a risk of fines. In other words, we should assume that the new rules are designed to address the problem created by members who apparently are in the business of renting and thus violating the rule against a "commercial purpose" and that the problem was noticeable enough that it was effecting other members ability to reserve rooms.

8. So basically what we have now is a DVC that is actually trying to enforce the "commercial purpose" prohibition. In that vein, the enforcement ultimately goes through rather low paid MS representatives who handle reservations. What we have is the usual problem that creates. Those MS personnel have been told of the new rules and that DVC is trying to crack down on commercial renters. Most of them don't really understand all the issues and we will have situations where they start doing things that are just incorrect. like telling you shouldn't do transfers or even cannot do one.

9. Now getting back to what you are allowed to do. You can rent your interest but can't do so for a commercial purpose, which does not prohibit an occasional rental as long as your real purpose of having points is mainly to use them yourself. You are prohibited from transfering points for value, mainly because they are deemed to have no value. However, that is a limited rule and there are ways to rent or even transfer points without attaching a value to them while still getting a value. For example, the "transfer" rule applies not at all to a member who rents by making the reservation in another's name using the members points because no transfer of points occurs. Also, even with a transfer, you can word the agreement to be a transfer of your real estate interest and then agreeing to transfer points to complete that agreement. In that way, you have not legally placed a value on the act of transfering the points. Moreover, no one is required to tell DVC that they are doing a cash transfer and thus it knows that its real way of effectively enforcing its rule is by what it has already done, going back to the one transfer rule. Nevertheless, MS personnel, who mainly are not sure of what to do, may sometimes try to enforce things in creative and often incorrect ways because they now have this new job directive about enforcing the commercial purpose rule.
 
So if someone is renting us points, they cannot also rent points to another person within that same year. For instance, if we rent 200 points from an owner that has 300 points to rent, that owner cannot rent the remaining 100 points?
 
They cannot actually transfer points more than once per use year. "Renting points" is a generic term many use to apply to any rental. If what the owner does is agree to rent and then the owner calls MS and uses his own points to make the reservation in the other's name, that owner has not done a "transfer" of any points to the other. You can do that kind of rental multiple times subject to the 20 reservation rule.
 
So if someone is renting us points, they cannot also rent points to another person within that same year. For instance, if we rent 200 points from an owner that has 300 points to rent, that owner cannot rent the remaining 100 points?


What you're talking about is a different transaction than what is referenced in this thread. A transfer is a transaction between 2 members which involves moving points from one members account to another members account. Renting does not involve a transfer since the member retains control of their points at all times and does not move them to another account. As drusba said rentals are only limited by the 20 reservation rule.
 

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