Monorail Expansion Rumors????

rmaiers

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What's the latest rumor on any type of growth/expansion of the WDW monorail system?

In my opinion, the monorail is a WDW "icon" as much as anything else on the Disney Campus can be and somewhat of an attraction itself - in an odd sort of way. Why not grow it? - especially in this day and age of eco-friendly transportation. Certantly an electric monorail is better for the environment than a bunch of diesel powered buses.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the monorail extended to Animal Kingdom, MGM, and Downtown Disney - at the very least.

I'm aware that it's expensive, but let's face it, everything DIsney does is expensive.

Any rumors out there????
 
It's not going to happen, for two reasons.

First, money. To expand the monorail would cost $700m to $1b. The monorail is a non-revenue generating item, so therefore, they cannot justify the enormous cost.

And second, logistics... there are so many logistical issues that would come up. Routing, station placement, potential transfers, etc.
 
There are always rumors out there. It seems like every 4-6 months we hear of somebody who heard from a CM that expanding the monorail was being considered. Well, there is a huge leap between being thought about and actually happening.

As somebody has already pointed out, it would cost a lot of money to expand the monorail between the construction and the new rolling stock. However, I don't agree with the "non-revenue generating item" comment only because you could say the same about any new theme park attraction, but that doesn't stop them from being built. But at least in that case, Disney can figure there will be a boost from people who have to come to ride the new attraction. In the case of the monorail, the equasion is different. The monorail will displace some of the bus service, so you need to compare the cost per passenger mile for the monorail to the bus. I've never seen numbers on that.
 
OKW Lover said:
I don't agree with the "non-revenue generating item" comment only because you could say the same about any new theme park attraction,

Keep in mind, to experience the theme park attraction, you must first purchase a theme park ticket.
 

We asked Park staff again this summer during our trip about the monorail expansion rumors...and that's all they are...there are no current plans to expand the monorail. It's a nice dream that recycles every season.
:earsgirl: :earsboy: :earsboy: :earsgirl:
 
That rumor has been going around ever since my first trip to WDW over a decade ago. Anyone ever hear the one about how the monorail was supposed to go through the Swan/Dolphin, and that's why you see the black square up there?
Barb
 
Is it just me? I don't really like the monorail. Yes, it's cool, but I swear it took just as long to get to MK from the GF as it does from OKW with all the stops and it took longer to get to Epcot!
 
/
All guests can currently experience a monorail as an attraction without the need to expand the system.

Compared with the existing infrastructure I would have doubts that a monorail system linking all of the parks with resort bus service only to the nearest monorail station could carry the guest load more quickly. Also, if there were a breakdown on a monorail based system at park closing, transporting the guests would be an even bigger nightmare, as there would not be extra buses and drivers on hand.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm
 
CarolA said:
Is it just me? I don't really like the monorail. Yes, it's cool, but I swear it took just as long to get to MK from the GF as it does from OKW with all the stops and it took longer to get to Epcot!

Amen! Finally someone that feels the same way I do.

And man, that thing seems to break down a lot.

Anne
 
CarolA said:
Is it just me? I don't really like the monorail. Yes, it's cool, but I swear it took just as long to get to MK from the GF as it does from OKW with all the stops and it took longer to get to Epcot!

Us too. It is HIGHLY overrated. Drove us nuts getting to MK from CR during our last visit. I can't tell you how many times it would sit for 6 minutes at a station (I timed it).
 
The current rumors have to do with an effort by elements of the Florida government to be selected as the site for a prototype high-speed magnetic-levitation (MagLev) train project. The proposed route would be east-west through central Florida, including a stop at MCO, and of course Disney would love to have it stop at WDW as well.

A direct rail link from MCO to WDW is opposed by many businesses in Orlando, Kissimmee, and St. Cloud, all of whom depend heavily on tourist dollars which would be severely cut if there was a free, convenient, easy way to get directly from MCO to WDW without ever seeing any of the surrounding area. Towncar companies, taxi services, and even Mears would be put nearly out of business, and rental car companies would see a major hit to thier business, too.

This web page shows the current status of the project, which was at one time supposed to be the first leg of a statewide high-speed rail system:
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2c_phases.jsp
 
Disney basically is already doing this with Magical Express. Unlike a train or monorail the buses will get you from the airport directly to your resort. Local business aren't happy, the combination of the magical express and the almost free park days (5 to 7 days) will hurt other attractions.




WillCAD said:
A direct rail link from MCO to WDW is opposed by many businesses in Orlando, Kissimmee, and St. Cloud, all of whom depend heavily on tourist dollars which would be severely cut if there was a free, convenient, easy way to get directly from MCO to WDW without ever seeing any of the surrounding area. Towncar companies, taxi services, and even Mears would be put nearly out of business, and rental car companies would see a major hit to thier business, too.

This web page shows the current status of the project, which was at one time supposed to be the first leg of a statewide high-speed rail system:
http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/2c_phases.jsp
 
I'm glad some of you (and we'll include Eisner and friends as well) weren't on Disney's development team when he was designing and building Disney World over 30 years ago. I'm sure he was told numerous times the problems with building a monorail was back then (especially since they had to develop the trains, track, and almost all of the techonology). I'm also tired of hearing why everything needs a cost efficiency study to validate its purpose these days (though, I'll let that discusion for another day...). How many kids have dreamed larger dreams just because of watching that monorail? Probably millions to this day! Yeah, it breaks down a bit and the audio is usually off, but riding on one is truly more "magical" than a bus...even if it does take longer. If you don't like it, don't stay at a monorail resort; otherwise, there's no requirement you have to take it, you can always walk from the CR and take a boat from GR and Poly.

Anyways, as part accountant, part auditor/examiner, part cost analysis specialist, part engineer-wanna-be, and part Disney geek, if you really want a feasibility study how about this -

Monorail resorts typically charge a premium for just the convenience and accessibility of being on the monorail loop. Even though the AKL and WL are as deluxe as the CR, GF, and Poly, the difference in room rates for the same type room ranges anywhere from $50 - $75. While, notably, the greatest portion of this is because of the properties view of the MK, even those rooms not facing the MK still charge more than their counterparts at the other deluxe hotels. As such, we can conservatively estimate a $20/night/room "monorail access fee" for any resort directly linked to a monorail.

While I would love to see the MK express and EPCOT express monorail loops linked to create one giant figure-eight MK/TTC/EPCOT express monorail circuit, my proposal doesn't require this connection (though it would alleviate a no. of problems). The proposal does, however, require three new resorts to be built (2 deluxe and 1 premium moderate - moderate ammenities, but connected to the monorail) along with the requisite no. of stations.

For starters, I would build a super deluxe resort on the point north of the TTC facing the lagoon and MK and than another deluxe resort on the east side of the EPCOT loop inbetween the TTC and EPCOT station. I would then build a Monorail transfer station at where the current EPCOT line bends to head east.

From this transfer station I would build a third monorail loop that connects the new transfer station with a station at the Boardwalk/Swan/Dolphin/EPCOT-area resorts, another at MGM studios, swings west and connects to a single station between AK and AKL, then heads north to the open area where a new theme park/resort area could be built (Colonial Village, etc.), then back east to the transfer station. Generally, any more than 4 or 5 stops for a circuit significantly decreases its efficiency.

According to previous calculations, this loop would be about 8 or 9 miles long (a little more than twice the length of track for the EPCOT loop) and with newer technology and open land could probably be built for a little less than $700 million, as previously posted. (However, I would build it as a double track since building two tracks side-by-side using the same pylons barely raises the overall cost by 20%)

Now about paying for this...

In addition to the 2722 rooms in the MK resorts that are already paying the monorail access fee (MAF), Disney's accountants could then charge and expense AKL's 1293 rooms each the $20 MAF, a $15 MAF for each of the EPCOT/Boardwalk-area's 1569 rooms since they are already paying an EPCOT accessibility fee, and a $10 MAF for the Swan/Dolphin's 1500 combined rooms (give them a little break as they are already paying a $10 resort fee). In addition, I'm estimating a combined 3000 rooms at $20 MAF for the new resorts to be built with each having a station on one of the lines.

With a conservative estimate that the resorts maintain an average of 80% occupancy for 360 days out of the year, combining all the rooms' MAF generates a total $51.5 million dollars just for monorail accessibility each year. Even if no other growth was planned over a lifespan of only 40 years, the total dollars generated with monorail accessibility is just about $2.1 billion! O.k., that's over the next 40 years...the "present value," or what $2.1 billion dollars over the next 40 years is equal to in today's dollar, comes to just under $950 million using an inflation rate of 4.5%.

Can we justify it now????

-R
 
:banana:
Lord Fantasius said:
I'm glad some of you (and we'll include Eisner and friends as well) weren't on Disney's development team when he was designing and building Disney World over 30 years ago. I'm sure he was told numerous times the problems with building a monorail was back then (especially since they had to develop the trains, track, and almost all of the techonology). I'm also tired of hearing why everything needs a cost efficiency study to validate its purpose these days (though, I'll let that discusion for another day...). How many kids have dreamed larger dreams just because of watching that monorail? Probably millions to this day! Yeah, it breaks down a bit and the audio is usually off, but riding on one is truly more "magical" than a bus...even if it does take longer. If you don't like it, don't stay at a monorail resort; otherwise, there's no requirement you have to take it, you can always walk from the CR and take a boat from GR and Poly.

Anyways, as part accountant, part auditor/examiner, part cost analysis specialist, part engineer-wanna-be, and part Disney geek, if you really want a feasibility study how about this -

Monorail resorts typically charge a premium for just the convenience and accessibility of being on the monorail loop. Even though the AKL and WL are as deluxe as the CR, GF, and Poly, the difference in room rates for the same type room ranges anywhere from $50 - $75. While, notably, the greatest portion of this is because of the properties view of the MK, even those rooms not facing the MK still charge more than their counterparts at the other deluxe hotels. As such, we can conservatively estimate a $20/night/room "monorail access fee" for any resort directly linked to a monorail.

While I would love to see the MK express and EPCOT express monorail loops linked to create one giant figure-eight MK/TTC/EPCOT express monorail circuit, my proposal doesn't require this connection (though it would alleviate a no. of problems). The proposal does, however, require three new resorts to be built (2 deluxe and 1 premium moderate - moderate ammenities, but connected to the monorail) along with the requisite no. of stations.

For starters, I would build a super deluxe resort on the point north of the TTC facing the lagoon and MK and than another deluxe resort on the east side of the EPCOT loop inbetween the TTC and EPCOT station. I would then build a Monorail transfer station at where the current EPCOT line bends to head east.

From this transfer station I would build a third monorail loop that connects the new transfer station with a station at the Boardwalk/Swan/Dolphin/EPCOT-area resorts, another at MGM studios, swings west and connects to a single station between AK and AKL, then heads north to the open area where a new theme park/resort area could be built (Colonial Village, etc.), then back east to the transfer station. Generally, any more than 4 or 5 stops for a circuit significantly decreases its efficiency.

According to previous calculations, this loop would be about 8 or 9 miles long (a little more than twice the length of track for the EPCOT loop) and with newer technology and open land could probably be built for a little less than $700 million, as previously posted. (However, I would build it as a double track since building two tracks side-by-side using the same pylons barely raises the overall cost by 20%)

Now about paying for this...

In addition to the 2722 rooms in the MK resorts that are already paying the monorail access fee (MAF), Disney's accountants could then charge and expense AKL's 1293 rooms each the $20 MAF, a $15 MAF for each of the EPCOT/Boardwalk-area's 1569 rooms since they are already paying an EPCOT accessibility fee, and a $10 MAF for the Swan/Dolphin's 1500 combined rooms (give them a little break as they are already paying a $10 resort fee). In addition, I'm estimating a combined 3000 rooms at $20 MAF for the new resorts to be built with each having a station on one of the lines.

With a conservative estimate that the resorts maintain an average of 80% occupancy for 360 days out of the year, combining all the rooms' MAF generates a total $51.5 million dollars just for monorail accessibility each year. Even if no other growth was planned over a lifespan of only 40 years, the total dollars generated with monorail accessibility is just about $2.1 billion! O.k., that's over the next 40 years...the "present value," or what $2.1 billion dollars over the next 40 years is equal to in today's dollar, comes to just under $950 million using an inflation rate of 4.5%.

Can we justify it now????

-R

:cheer2: ~~~COOL!~~~ :cheer2:

Can you please get a job at WDW & make this happen?!
 
Kimberle said:
:banana:

:cheer2: ~~~COOL!~~~ :cheer2:

Can you please get a job at WDW & make this happen?!

Decisions like this are not made by one job. :) I doubt even a CEO can make it happen. You need approval from the board and investors. I would love to sere it, but I doubt it would happen.

Ted
 
Lord Fantasius said:
According to previous calculations, this loop would be about 8 or 9 miles long (a little more than twice the length of track for the EPCOT loop) and with newer technology and open land could probably be built for a little less than $700 million, as previously posted. (However, I would build it as a double track since building two tracks side-by-side using the same pylons barely raises the overall cost by 20%)

8 miles=42,240 linear feet of single track or 84,480 linear feet of dualized track.

$700 million / 42,240' = $16,571.96 per foot of track. That seems a little low to me, considering the costs of design, construction, environmental compliance and wetland mitigation. Fortunately, right-of-way aquisition is not an issue since Disney already owns the entire WDW property. But alterations to the existing TTC and or Epcot stations, as well as construction of several new stations, including new utility connections to the WDW water, sewer, and electrical grids, would be part of the total project cost, causing the average price per linear foot of track to rise significantly.

Estimates I've heard place the cost of new monorail construction at $1 million per linear foot. At $1 million per foot, 8 miles of single track would cost $42.2 billion. Assuming the 20% increase you mentioned, 8 miles of dualized track would cost $50.64 billion.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

But let's assume for a moment that $700 million is the actual cost for 8 miles of dualized track. And assume that the monorail resorts net $51.5 million per year that goes directly toward recouping the monorail construction costs, which would pay off the new monorail in only 13.6 years, which is right quick. The construction would still cause Disney to take on $700 million in new debt over the course of 2 or 3 years. That's not an untennable debt for a company the size of Disney, but Disney has never laid out that much money for a project that doesn't generate DIRECT income like a new theme park or resort. It's hard enough to get $30 million out of Disney's wallet for a new theme park attraction!
 
Estimates I've heard place the cost of new monorail construction at $1 million per linear foot. At $1 million per foot, 8 miles of single track would cost $42.2 billion. Assuming the 20% increase you mentioned, 8 miles of dualized track would cost $50.64 billion.
Maybe if it was being built by a front for the mafia, but here's some actual figures -

The most recent monorail completed in the US was the 3.9 mile line running along the Las Vegas strip which opened for business in 2004 (after quite a lengthy delay in opening). The bond issue to pay for this construction provided $650 million of funding for the city of Las Vegas; from this, many people erronously figure a new monorail costs approx. $150 million / mile complete. This, however, is a gross misrepresentation. The actual cost to the city for the complete design, construction, and installation from inception to carrying the first paying passenger was $342 million, or $87 million / mile. Though this is even quite high according to most light-rail/monorail engineers.

But first of all, why issue $650 million worth of bonds to pay for a $342 million project? What happened to the other $308 million? Here's how that breaks down -
$100 million pre-paid interest on the bonds during the construction period when no revenue was being generated;
$25 million for insurance premiums to cover county-required guarantees;
$75 million as a reserve to cover unforeseen events that are not covered by insurance;
and over $100 million "contingency fees" never fully explained (surprise, welcome to Vegas!).

Of the $342 million used for actual construction, the breakdown is as follows -
$141 to construct fixed facilities (supporting pylons, trackbed, stations, etc.);
$190 million for construction of vehicles and operating system;
$11 million utility allowance (connecting electricity, etc.).

It should be noted that the contract between Las Vegas and Bombadier/Granite was a non-competitive, fixed-price contract that did not require the contractors to account for material costs or labor hours. Las Vegas was to pay Bombadier/Granite a total $342 million regardless of whether it actually cost more or substantially less to build.

Strangely, in a competitive market, most light-rail construction engineers estimate that a monorail/light-rail system should cost only $50 million / mile to fully build (track, stations, vehicles, and utility connections). Ergo, upon review of three engineers that specialize in monorail/light-rail designs, they noted anything over $200 million for the 3.9 mile line in Las Vegas was buried in fees, interest payments, and insurance; none of which has much to do with the actual building of the monorail. By comparison, China has contracted with an Hawaiian co. to build a light-rail/monorail system for $25 - $30 million / mile complete, while Indianapolis has a proposed 1.5-mile light-rail system that will only cost approx. $30 million. Even if these systems actually cost twice their budget, they will still be well below $87 million / mile.

So, what does this have to do with Disney? First of all, after printing out a geo-map of Walt Disney World and routing a fictitious circuit as described above, I discovered my proposed route is actually a little over 10 miles in length. If we don't include a swing out to AKL the overall length is just over 8 miles, but then we don't get the MAF from those rooms. Sorry about that.

Secondly, Disney would have many cost-savings compared to the Vegas line in that graft will probably be kept to more of a minimum, there will be no pre-paid interest that has to be accumulated, no land acquisition or right-of-way fees to be paid, and they own their own construction co. The most significant consideration that would increase the cost of construction is the building of support structures in a marsh setting.

Overall, even including new stations and vehicles, a 10-mile double-line loop should only cost about $500 or $600 million in today's dollars.

WillCAD - Disney would obviously not have to pay for this out of pocket all at the beginning, but rather expense it over the life of the project...in this case, about $150 million / year for four years. And considering it's return-on-value, might be a better investment than any number of E-ticket attractions!

Ted - ah, but have you ever dreamed? It was one man's vision, namely Walt Disney, that initiated this whole magic we call Disney World. True, he alone did not make Disneyland and WDW come into fruition and no one person could make this happen by themself either, but it only takes one to light the match.

However, the most depressing aspect about this is that even if the whole project could be proved to be cost-effective, from what I understand there is a division at Disney that has veto power over any future project development and that they usually veto anything they did not think up themselves. Oh well, maybe the magic will return to Disney once again before it's too late...

-R
 
Lord Fantasius said:
Ted - ah, but have you ever dreamed? It was one man's vision, namely Walt Disney, that initiated this whole magic we call Disney World. True, he alone did not make Disneyland and WDW come into fruition and no one person could make this happen by themself either, but it only takes one to light the match.

However, the most depressing aspect about this is that even if the whole project could be proved to be cost-effective, from what I understand there is a division at Disney that has veto power over any future project development and that they usually veto anything they did not think up themselves. Oh well, maybe the magic will return to Disney once again before it's too late...

-R

Of course! I would not love WDW as much as I do without perhaps too many dreams. But, the one man that DID do it was Walt Disney. In today's business world, within Disney, we are stuck. It would take a significant change of those in power to make any of the really wild dreams come true.

If the people in power were in charge back in the 60s and 70s, they would not have built a whole World in a swampy, sandy area in the middle of Florida.

If there is another Walt out there, he will have a real fight to do anything.

Sad.

Ted
 
Lord Fantasius said:
Maybe if it was being built by a front for the mafia, but here's some actual figures -

The most recent monorail completed in the US was the 3.9 mile line running along the Las Vegas strip ....
-R

Disney is basically built on a swamp. Building the support beams is expensive, much more so than in Vegas. I've read that if Disney decided to expand the rail transportation it would be much more likely to be light rail than monorail.

Buses are a lot more flexible. I think the only time we'd see anything like rail would be if Disney decided to build a large parking garage like Universal and then transport people to the parks.
 
Disney is basically built on a swamp.
The whole east half of downtown Chicago is basically built on a swamp as well...specifically, anything east of Lasalle St. was swamp and anything east of Michigan is built on infill from Lake Michigan...the point is?

Sorry, just came out...no, you are right, Lewisc, it probably would be even more cost-effective to build a light-rail system instead of a monorail; hey, I even think the light-rail connecting the terminals at Orlando international is pretty cool! Definitely could see that as a connecting network between the resorts and/or the parks as well.

As noted, the biggest problem building in a swamp is driving supporting beams deep enough. But basically, every building on WDW property has had to do the same thing. I think if I remember it correctly, when they dredged out to build Seven Seas they were 20 feet down before they hit solid earth. If this holds true for the rest of the property, it would mean supporting pylons would have to be pile-driven down 30 feet. Since this is standard practice in Chicago (do you realize how deep the supporting pylons are driven for the Sears Tower?), its really not all that untenable. Even if the cost were double what Vegas paid in its non-competitive contract for just building the track (2 x $35 million, or $70 million / mile), it would still pass most feasibility studies; though I truly doubt driving support beams that deep would really double the cost of track building since supporting beams would have to be driven at least 8-10 feet to begin with and that is already incorporated into the initial price.

Truthfully, I really like San Diego's light-rail trolley system and could really see this being adapted at Disney. It's part grade-level and part raised track and has a quaint old-town feel to it. And I'm sure it would be much cheaper to build than a monorail and it would still allow Disney to charge a trolley-access-fee for any resort built along the trolley.

Obviously, I'm not a big bus fan, and think they actually detract from the magic of WDW. This past visit I had the feeling that Disney Corporate was using a band-aid approach to keeping WDW up-to-date: build a new ride there, construct half a park there, remodel some rooms, add more bus routes, etc., instead of truly having a vision. Strangely, when Disney decides to do something, they really do it well and spare little cost in making it the most detailed, magically, "thing" to come out of Imagineering, but to get something actually rolling takes a long process and appears to strangle a lot of good ideas!

-R
 














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