MK Bus wheelchair/ECV at closing

[Mirabell Rose]

Patience is indeed required in equal measures for everyone if they leave directly after FW.

a couple things I noticed after a 2 night stay @ PoP thanksgiving weekend when waiting for DS bus around 4:15 pm…

the line was wildly long, we usually rent a vehicle to avoid the buses. The CM stationed at the stop indicated it tends to be that way on weekends, especially near Holidays. We didn’t get on a bus until almost 5:30 pm.

There were an extraordinary number of ECVs. Going to guess many may have been first time visitors. Loud complaints from people unhappy at prospect of being separated from their party…both when in groups larger than two ECVs or when having another ECV guest ahead of them that was waiting to board.

to my eye, a high percentage of people in ECVs also had quite large parties with them...resulting in less availability for those in the regular line. I have no idea how many people are permitted to board with somebody in a ECV.

I do know people were getting increasing frustrated seeing repeated buses arrive for the other stops. Once it started to rain, the mood really soured. Finally, they started to send more buses after 5 pm.

it absolutely wasn’t magical experience. Can only imagine similar issues the end of the night from Epcot or MK directly after the FW, yike & double yike!

Glad I didn’t have kids along on that trip. Shouldn’t be an us against them sort of thing among guests, nor should we have to explain the law or ECV boarding process to wdw employees & other guests.

WDW needs to set a clear & consistent policy, follow it and have security on standby, if needed to calm down those who melt down over the process for the safety of all guests.

I agree the bus at ‘closing’ is a mess that could be improved. I also see way too many little ones who should have to be seated are made to stand. Btw, all the people who load with me know that they stand unless/until there is room for other the kids, people holding kids, and elderly individuals have gotten a seat. I know there are others who do not, but my family’s united philosophy is that you show your gratitude for your health and adult responsibility by yielding your seat to those who aren’t as fortunate to be young and healthy enough to stand.

I also tried very much to avoid closing time. That particular day we went into the park at 6pm and planned on staying for the extra Deluxe resort hours. Unfortunately it was not a good day for me and I was exhausted after 2 hours, which put me at the dead wrong time to leave. I wanted to just try Minnie Van, but I had swapped my phone with my daughter who stayed because she had been in the park all day, and hers was dead. So I figured I would have to wait for the second or third bus, but not that I’d have to try and navigate a very crowded and tight cue.

 

[starlite_]

Exactly. So there is always a penalty there for a wheelchair rider on a bus at #3. There is never a penalty for a #3 non wheelchair rider

Waiting for the next bus is not a penalty.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more chairs/ecv’s going to Epcot than some of the other parks. You can do most of the attractions and I found the wide walkways easier than the other parks. AK has horribly rough walkways (I know it adds to the theming) and the Pandora area especially has a lot of narrow walkways. MK is hard with the rails in the concrete, the always large crowds, and some narrow walkways. HS doesn’t have many attractions I can go on, but the walkways are pretty decent and Fantasmic is wonderful.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

Waiting for the next bus is not a penalty.

It is. How many times as a non chair has everyone else at the stop gotten to load but you, even when you were the first one at the stop? And you sat and watched everyone else pull away with you left alone at the stop. Never. It’s been my penalty at least 7 or 8 times so far this trip. I have once gotten to load when a non chair person hasn’t.

 

[DisneyOma]

HA parking is set as a percentage of spots. No, a store doesn’t have to add more for an occasional overage. But even when all those spots are empty, they can’t let non handicapped park in them.

For busses, they have designated 6 seats for handicapped. (Two flip ups of 3) They can fill them with non wheel chairs, but only if no wheel chairs are waiting when the bus is loading. Thus, the bus can not leave a chair sitting at the stop so long as they have one of those spots not filled with a chair. This the ‘wait in the regular que’ serves no purpose, as the only wait for spots for those in a chair is for the 2 available slots. Chairs always have to take priority over people for those 2 slots. That is how the bus can load people who come after the chairs over the chairs.

Actually, bus drivers can ask people in those seats to move, but the people don't have to get up. If a person with an obvious disability (like a missing leg, etc) is sitting in those seats, the bus driver doesn't even have to ask. And I've yet to find the section in ADA that states mobility devices get loaded first. A link to that would be really helpful, if you have one?

Exactly. So there is always a penalty there for a wheelchair rider on a bus at #3. There is never a penalty for a #3 non wheelchair rider

While it's not the number 3 spot, there's also a penalty for any rider that gets to the bus after it is loaded. It would be interesting to know the percentage of guests who use the bus that have a mobility device.

 

[Lewisc]

Actually, bus drivers can ask people in those seats to move, but the people don't have to get up.

A non handicapped guest is required to vacate the seat if the seat is needed for a guest in a chair.

 

[DisneyOma]

A non handicapped guest is required to vacate the seat if the seat is needed for a guest in a chair.

Not according to what I found online at https://www.nadtc.org/wp-content/uploads/ES-NADTC-Transit-Operators-Guide-Brch-1217_web.pdf

 

[Lewisc]

Not according to what I found online at https://www.nadtc.org/wp-content/uploads/ES-NADTC-Transit-Operators-Guide-Brch-1217_web.pdf

I'm referring to Disney's posted policy. Doesn't the signage on the bus say as much? The ADA sets minimum standards.A company is generally free to exceed ADA requirements.

You do make a good point. Some people think the ADA requires more then it does.

 

[lanejudy]

The general consensus that I find online as ADA guidance for transportation agencies indicates the driver must ASK someone to vacate the fold-down seating to allow a wheelchair to board, but is not required to make that person move if they refuse. If an individual occupying a seat has an "obvious" disability, no requirement to even ask them to move. Individual transit agencies may have stricter rules, though -- so it is a case of YMMV. To my knowledge, WDW does not force people to vacate those seats if already occupied.

 

[FastPasser.]

I'm referring to Disney's posted policy. Doesn't the signage on the bus say as much?

I’m a long time former WDW bus driver and I was trained by WDW bus transportation per the ADA.

Guests were politely asked if they wouldn’t mind moving to another seat but they had the option of refusing. I never had any issues with the procedure.

 

[Lewisc]

I’m a long time former WDW bus driver and I was trained by WDW bus transportation per the ADA.

Guests were politely asked if they wouldn’t mind moving to another seat but they had the option of refusing. I never had any issues with the procedure.

My bad. I thought there was a sign on the bus stating those seats are reserved.

 

[lanejudy]

My bad. I thought there was a sign on the bus stating those seats are reserved.

You may be correct about the signage. But how enforceable that is seems to be the question.

This is a much older post so I don't know if the signage and/or wording has changed: https://www.disboards.com/threads/clearing-bus-seats-for-wheelchair-ecv.2973441/page-2#post-45821804

 

[starlite_]

It is. How many times as a non chair has everyone else at the stop gotten to load but you, even when you were the first one at the stop? And you sat and watched everyone else pull away with you left alone at the stop. Never. It’s been my penalty at least 7 or 8 times so far this trip. I have once gotten to load when a non chair person hasn’t.

A previous poster said it better than I could, if there are 150 ppl waiting for a bus and a bus only sits 110 and 2 wheelchairs, making 40 ppl wait is not penalizing them.

Expanding on that, if there are 300 ppl waiting and the 3rd wheelchair user is #290 in line, why should that guest (and their party) get priority over the 70 other guests in front of them. Equal access does not mean having priority even tho most of the time it's ok when that happens.

This is exactly the reasoning given as to why DAS is no longer provided for mobility issues.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

Actually, bus drivers can ask people in those seats to move, but the people don't have to get up. If a person with an obvious disability (like a missing leg, etc) is sitting in those seats, the bus driver doesn't even have to ask. And I've yet to find the section in ADA that states mobility devices get loaded first. A link to that would be really helpful, if you have one?

While it's not the number 3 spot, there's also a penalty for any rider that gets to the bus after it is loaded. It would be interesting to know the percentage of guests who use the bus that have a mobility device.

Actually you are required to move and the bus driver is required to move you. If you have a disability that requires you be seated, the bus driver can require a non disabled person in a regular seat to move. ADA gives rules such as the fair and equal access. It does not lay out specific examples. You must apply the rules. That’s most laws that cover broad subjects. The mobility device does not need to be loaded first. But if there are mobility devices present, they must be given those areas marked for them. Getting to a ‘full’ bus is a different criteria for a wheelchair versus a non wheel chair. If you have to wait on the monorail for another train, everyone has the same access and the same requirement for wait. If 3 chairs are the first to get there and 15 non chairs come, all will ride the first train. If that happens at a bus stop, chair 3 won’t load and all the 15 people who came after the chair will load.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

A previous poster said it better than I could, if there are 150 ppl waiting for a bus and a bus only sits 110 and 2 wheelchairs, making 40 ppl wait is not penalizing them.

Expanding on that, if there are 300 ppl waiting and the 3rd wheelchair user is #290 in line, why should that guest (and their party) get priority over the 70 other guests in front of them. Equal access does not mean having priority even tho most of the time it's ok when that happens.

This is exactly the reasoning given as to why DAS is no longer provided for mobility issues.

That is not why DAS was changed. It was changed because those who didn’t need access for a disability were abusing it. You know there aren’t 300 people in line for the bus. I’m sorry it bothers you that you’ve only seen the wheelchairs loading before you and think, damn they always get the advantage. You aren’t around for all the disadvantages. I am fortunate that for a good part of my life I was able to ride and stand on a bus, some people have dealt with this all their lives. I am grateful that my experiences have given me insight to those things. I am grateful for those who have never experienced it but have thought deep enough to get it and understand what we have put in place in regards to accommodation. And I also accept that there is a group of people who don’t or don’t want to get it.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

You may be correct about the signage. But how enforceable that is seems to be the question.

This is a much older post so I don't know if the signage and/or wording has changed: https://www.disboards.com/threads/clearing-bus-seats-for-wheelchair-ecv.2973441/page-2#post-45821804

It is federally enforceable. Do some bus drivers disregard it? Yes they do. I have an experience when I was much younger when a driver at Grand Floridian left a little girl in a wheelchair because he didn’t want to ask people to move. My family walked off the bus and stood with those left behind. I took down his name and the ‘trainer’ driver as well and reported him. Worst experience I ever had at Disney.

 

[OurBigTrip]

It is federally enforceable. Do some bus drivers disregard it? Yes they do. I have an experience when I was much younger when a driver at Grand Floridian left a little girl in a wheelchair because he didn’t want to ask people to move. My family walked off the bus and stood with those left behind. I took down his name and the ‘trainer’ driver as well and reported him. Worst experience I ever had at Disney.

Bus drivers have to ask, but they don’t have to make people move if they choose not to.

 

[piccolopat]

Disney has two spots for wheelchairs or scooters. That always means if there are more waiting, they won't get on that bus no matter how many walkers can be loaded that got there after them. There really isn't a good way to make sure everyone is able to get onto a bus in order of arrival. The buses simply can't be designed to accomodate a large number of wheelchairs and so those folks may need to wait a bit. As for those reserved seats, you never know if that healthy looking young man has a hidden disability. That's why drivers ask but won't demand someone vacate one of those seats. Let's not forget that the ADA requires reasonable accommodations, not the accommodation of your choice or 100% equal access.

 

[Mirabell Rose]

Bus drivers have to ask, but they don’t have to make people move if they choose not to.

Not true. And you have to move.

 

[SteveMouse]

It is. How many times as a non chair has everyone else at the stop gotten to load but you, even when you were the first one at the stop? And you sat and watched everyone else pull away with you left alone at the stop. Never. It’s been my penalty at least 7 or 8 times so far this trip. I have once gotten to load when a non chair person hasn’t.

Agreed it is a major penalty. Late for ADRs. Budgeting an extra 45 minutes to account for "missing"a bus. Needing to use the bathroom, but.... Getting up an hour early to deal with buses that don't have capacity when you're aiming at rope drop...