Ministry Salaries-- are they private?

[Cindy B]

Now, this topic may get destined to the DB but I want to ask opinions, and I want it to stay nice, OK!

That said, here is my question(s).

Now, if you are in a place of worship, are you aware of your ministers/spiritual leaders' salary?

If you are aware of it, was it made public to you for the whole congregation, or did you have to ask for the salary via the accouting office?


Do you consider the salary a private topic? If the congregants support the leader with contributions, is it the members right to know if the money is being misused if the salary is astonisghly high?

And also on the topic of spiritual leaders salary, it is a common conception that the salary is usually a lower salary, since the job is "non profit"or "service" oriented. Do you agree with that conception? Should it be a lower, service oriented salary or a salary equitable to say... an attorney, or medical doctor?

I have some info on this , but want to get opinions first.

 

[jfulcer]

Our Pastor's Salary is clearly stated in our financial documents that are given to every member of our congregation. It is the Church Council that decides on what to pay him, and if there should be any raises/etc.

I do not believe he should be paid 'less' because it's a non-profit church, he should be paid based on his skills/seniority/etc just like any other position, IMHO. If I remember correctly, our pastor does make a decent salary. Not enough to support his who family so his wife does work, but enough....

 

[KathyTX]

Because the congregation directly funds the church, they should have easy and full access to ALL financial records, including salaries. They are the "owners".

As far as the pastor's salary, it should relate to the size of the church. Smaller church, fewer parishioners, smaller salary. Larger church, larger responsibility, more contributors, larger salary.

It's hard to compare to lawyer and doctor salaries- in these two professions, salaries can also vary widely. (You'll find both doctors and lawyers making less than 50K per year in some cases, and multi-millions in others.)

(Edited to say: )
I think the pastor's salary should be one that allows him and his family to live in a manner that fits comfortably into the community in which they live. The pastor's kids should have the same advantages and opportunities as their peers...

I don't think it would be appropriate to see this family in the position of "paupers" as compared to their peers and neighbors, nor to see them in a position of vast financial superiority.

 

[cherylp3]

In my case, I am a member of the ritual committee which decides the Cantor's salary. The board of trustees has the final say regarding saleries but any synagogue member is allowed to attend board meetings and financial info is given out at the annual meeting. If I wanted to know the Rabbi's salary I would have to ask the treasurer.

Do you consider the salary a private topic? If the congregants support the leader with contributions, is it the members right to know if the money is being misused if the salary is astonisghly high?

No. Again our synagogueholds annual meetings and at that time a financial statement is supplied.

And also on the topic of spiritual leaders salary, it is a common conception that the salary is usually a lower salary, since the job is "non profit"or "service" oriented. Do you agree with that conception? Should it be a lower, service oriented salary or a salary equitable to say... an attorney, or medical doctor?

In an ideal world yes the salary should be lower and if you have the person whos more the right fit, it could be higher.
I think it should be somewhere in between. Not as high as a doctor or an attourney but not too low.

 

[Princess Michelle]

At my church financial records are open to any member of the congregation who would like to view them. I don't think any church expense, including the Pastor's salary should be private.

As far as what his salary should be, this may be a divine calling but it's still his job and the way he makes his living so I don't think it should be less just because it is a non-profit orginization. I think it should be factored into the budget just like any other business does when deciding on a salary for an employee. I think that a Pastor should make as much as his congregation can afford to pay him, be it little or be it much. I would also hope that the Board members and anyone else involved in that decision would be in prayer about what his salary should be before they settle on it.

 

[browneyes]

I thought it was a public thing to know. I've never wanted to know the salaries of any of the Pastors I've known though.

I do know of 1 Pastor at a different church (different denomination as my church also) quit pastoring at that church because he felt they didn't pay him enough. I don't know how much they were paying him, but they gave him and his family a house to live in, and they never had to do their yard work, people from the church did that (the house is next door to the church). They also had several members of their church to host dinners for them, or bring them dinner almost every night of the week. He left that church to go to another one that paid more money. I always thought Pastors went to churches when they had a calling, not for greed. Lots of people from that church found other churches to go to because of the reason why he left.

 

[WDWHound]

Our Minister's Salary is public knowledge, it is part of the church budget which anyone in the church can examine. In Methodism, the salary is proposed by the staff parish relationship committee and approved by the church board. The SPRC also deals with disputes between the church members and the pastor and/or the staff. I am on this commitee for our church, and it can get quite colorful sometimes.

The salary of the minister is public to any church member because they pay his salary through their giving to the church. The deliberations for setting that salary are closed to anyone not on the SPRC, though church member can relay their suggestions to an SPRC member. Salary's vary depending on church size, the pastors experience and the churches financial situation. While no Methodist minister is ever going to get rich off his salary, most have a middle class salary level.

 

[kidzmom3]

I don't know the man but perhaps even with the no rent, the salary really was too low for him and his family. Being able to support yourself in a comfortable manner is not "greedy" to me. THey may have a clalling to spread the gospel, but unlike catholic priests, they do not have to take a vow of poverty for themselves and their family.

 

[katerkat]

It's been public - in the financial statements everyone in the congregation receives - in every church I've been to.

I think the pay should be based on the community, the size of the church and the experience of the pastor. I know many parishes/dioceses set minimums or guidelines.

As a sidenote, I was shocked when I found out that the church I worked at for four months (and they knew it was temporary) was planning to pay me the same amount I made as a reporter. That's right, a temporary, part-time church secretary makes the same amount as a reporter!

 

[Cindy B]

Ok, let me give you particulars...

Philadelphia region, over one million people in the city, but only about at last count, 700-900 memembers. These members number fluctuate due to lacks of true particulars.

These members come from the worst part of the ghetto in North Philadlephia , with no money.. living in rat infested homes.., to a palatial 500K home. Its very wide, but a good bulk of the members live in a comfortable,middle class range.

Does the help the discusion any?

Many people are calling for our lead minister to resign, and I am trying to get a feel for what other churches do.

For example we have anywhere from 8-16 staff memebers (two sets of financials have two different sets of staff numbers) with an annual budget of 1.8 million for staff, with the lead minister makeing over $121K (with an 37K housing allowance a year!)

Is this too high?

 

[Bob O]

In my church the pastor's salary/expenses are part of the churchs budget which in passed in voters meetings and is known to anyone who picks up a copy of the church budget.
As for your church leaders pay being to high that is something for the members of the church too decide based on what his work activities are/number of church memebers/what other church leaders are being paid in the area and what the church can afford. Im sure in some areas where they standard of living is high the pay received will be much more.
The one thing i do believe in is that the church leader should live in the area of the church and too somewhat the same standards that the regular churchgoers lived in. I have seen in the areas where i work that is poverty ridden that the church leader lives in a very affluent area of the community that is nothing like the area where his church is and that IMHO is wrong. In my church the pastor lives next door to the church and in similiar accodamations to what the church members live in. I have seen way too many inner city/poverty church leaders lving way better than the people wqho foot the bills for the churches they lead.
But again this is a decision that should be made by the members of the church, and if i didn t like what was taking place i would find a different church to attend.

 

[Cindy B]

Originally posted by Bob O

The one thing i do believe in is that the church leader should live in the area of the church and too somewhat the same standards that the regular churchgoers lived in. I have seen in the areas where i work that is poverty ridden that the church leader lives in a very affluent area of the community that is nothing like the area where his church is and that IMHO is wrong. In my church the pastor lives next door to the church and in similiar accodamations to what the church members live in. I have seen way too many inner city/poverty church leaders lving way better than the people wqho foot the bills for the churches they lead.
But again this is a decision that should be made by the members of the church, and if i didn t like what was taking place i would find a different church to attend.

This is the case here.. He is in a 500K house, but there are some members that live in the roughest area of the city

 

[MerryPoppins]

Our priest's salary is common knowledge. We are handed out a budget at our annual meeting and all employee's salaries are included.

Having said that, I can't begin to tell you what he makes. I don't remember.

 

[tar heel]

Our church membership (Presbyterian) approves the budget each year which includes all the salaries. Our senior pastor's salary and housing allowance (which is basically salary, since he arranges his own housing) is around $90,000, which is well above average for our community but not above average for our congregation. I would guess, however, that his salary may be a bit above the median for the congregation, though. He lives in a house that I would guess would be worth about $250,000. In central NC, that buys a nice house -- 2,500-3,000 square feet in a good neighborhood. He's a brilliant man and wonderful leader with a doctorate degree -- I don't consider him overpaid.

 

[Pembo]

This is a subject that is hits VERY close to home since DH is a UCC minister. This is going to be a long post....

First, in the UCC the salary is public knowledge. It is in the annual financial reports.

Second, ministers in general are some of the worst paid professionals. DH has a masters degree and before his latest move was being paid so poorly that we qualified for welfare benefits. Members of his former church felt that his "package" numbers were high. They were looking at the amount the church paid for his health insurance, pension share, etc, not just the actual take home amount.

In the UCC most churches do not have a parsonage so we get a housing allowance. A housing allowance is a portion of the salary that is non-taxed by law. It should cover the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance and basic utilities. All the things that would be paid for by the church if they had a parsonage.

That said---in the situation you are talking about CindyB---I don't think a minister should be asked to step down based on his salary. The church leaders had to offer him a good salary when he started at the church and it sounds like he has been given adequate pay increases. I wouldn't judge a minister by his house. Consider that if he owns it, he must have had a substantial downpayment.

I don't think parishioners should have any say in where the minister lives. He or she should live where they feel most comfortable. Good ministers are hard to find, especially ones willing to serve the inner city. Be greatful for a caring minister.

I need to stop now.............

One more thing

Should it be a lower, service oriented salary or a salary equitable to say... an attorney, or medical doctor?

Equitable salary!!!!

 

[kidzmom3]

the average salary for the "head of pastoral care" in my area is 52,000-74,000 per year.

 

[Cindy B]

Originally posted by Pembo
This is a subject that is hits VERY close to home since DH is a UCC minister. This is going to be a long post....


Second, ministers in general are some of the worst paid professionals.
In the UCC most churches do not have a parsonage so we get a housing allowance. A housing allowance is a portion of the salary that is non-taxed by law. It should cover the mortgage payment, taxes, insurance and basic utilities. All the things that would be paid for by the church if they had a parsonage.

That said---in the situation you are talking about CindyB---I don't think a minister should be asked to step down based on his salary.

I don't think parishioners should have any say in where the minister lives. He or she should live where they feel most comfortable. Good ministers are hard to find, especially ones willing to serve the inner city. Be greatful for a caring minister.

I need to stop now.............

One more thing Equitable salary!!!!

I'm glad you chimed in Pembo, I was looking for your response.

Is 121K too high? Pluse the housing allowance The average salary of the member is about 35K a yar. His housing allowance is highter than most of the average congregants salary...

A majority of the members are upset because because he doesn't go to the urban areas, does not return phone calls, etc..

The down payment of his home was a gift from the church, namely from contributions... not from savings. Some congregants are upset because there contribution went to a 550K home.
This minister is also unapproachable and unavailalbe most of the time.

I know what some ministers make.. I was on a mission team. I saw people pour their lives out for others... and I did it for no pay from the church..

I'm just concerned about the inequality of it all. The single mom.. vs.. this guy...

 

[Bevv]

For example we have anywhere from 8-16 staff memebers (two sets of financials have two different sets of staff numbers) with an annual budget of 1.8 million for staff, with the lead minister makeing over $121K (with an 37K housing allowance a year!)

I think the congregation has the right to decide what to pay. If they set up a board to do that or have the whole congregation vote is up to the way they handle their financial affairs. There would be a lot of factors that would concern me if I were making the decision.
What is the total church income?
can you afford that $$ for staff?
what does your minister do.. exactly... every week?
does the minister meet your needs spiritually?


If he met spiritual needs (first consideration) and you felt that the $$ is too much, you should negotiate all the salaries to match the needs of the congregation.

 

[Bevv]

A majority of the members are upset because because he doesn't go to the urban areas, does not return phone calls, etc..

after reading the above and rest of the post...

yes, $158K for someone that does not do what sounds like ought to be their job is way too much.

 

[Cindy B]

Pembo---and everyone else


I also have another question to ask you.. and if it is too personal PM me...


Is it proper for wives or substantial for the wives to get paid a salary as well?

Our minsitry wives are getting paid approx a $40K a year salary, plus housing and other expenses as well!!!!!
.
Its about 65K a year for the ministry wives... they have been given a title such as Womens Ministry Coordinator or Womens Ministry Leader.,

We are trying to get the board to justify the cost. And no the members had no input on salary, just the board, and the minister itself. .. the members are all up in arms about this and shocked as well.


Its a big problem here..the church can not afford that.. they are asking congregants to pay more in tithing, and yes, they have reduced the ministers salary.. It used to be 140K and it was reduced to 121k.

bUTthe interns are making maybe 35K a year, and a $400 month allowance for an apartment..

Its not fair or equitable