middle school dance -- girls can't turn down a guy who asks them

[wenrob]

Uncomfortable in what way though? Uncomfortable because they feel like something is 'off' is one thing. Uncomfortable because the kid wears glasses is another.

I also agree with Luvsjack in that it is a large leap to go from teaching girls they can dance with a boy they may not necessarily prefer at a dance (and I do agree that there is a difference between square dancing in gym class and slow dancing at an after school dance) and not being able to say no to rape. I really don't feel like this is a black and white issue and if we all think our kids are too stupid to tell the difference between a dance at a school function and rape then we should probably be focusing on making our kids more intelligent.

Uncomfortable for any reason that is valid to them. The point is this policy teaches girls they have to say ‘yes’ to boys and boys won’t ever hear a ‘no.’ In order for each of them to understand it they have to experience it.

As for rape that’s the very definition of a girl not being able to say “no.” It’s something she has no choice about.

So here’s what personally bothers me about the “girl needs to learn compassion and needs to learn that sometimes you just need to be nice” line: girls and women have historically been made to think that they need to be ”nice” and be “kind” to spare others feelings and one form that takes it less control over their own bodies and who touches them. Talking with middle age women most of us have stories of sexual contact/even assaults that occurred because we felt like we couldn’t speak up more forcefully or we would say no but not in the “ no, touch me again I will scream and try to hit” way but in the “please don’t, I don’t want that way”. A lot of that stems from how we were socialized very early on to be ”nice” and in a way that it was okay for someone to hug us, put an arm around us, or slow dance with us.

Personally I’m not okay with that anymore, and definitely not for my daughter. She does not need to permit anyone the right to put their hands on her waist and hold hands for a slow dance unless she would like them to do that. I hope she says a kind no thank you, I hope that she does it discreetly and doesn’t make fun of anyone, but that’s as nice as she needs to be when it comes to people putting their hands on her actual body. I have personally cringed when a man I don’t like has put his hand on my back or arm around my waist in public, so even though it’s a dance in front of adults, having an unwanted physical touch is no better just because others see it to me.

Bravo. Exactly this.

 

[Hikergirl]

Do we not teach kids good touch/bad touch anymore?

I'm not sure what it is you are asking here. Are you implying that because during a slow dance it's not "bad" touch, that kids should be comfortable with it?

 

[wenrob]

Do we not teach kids good touch/bad touch anymore?

I am also confused about a slow dance for 11 year olds. We have dances at our middle school but I don't even think they have slow dances.

And further, at that age, around here at that age the girls all dance in a group with their friends for the most part. There isn't much partner dancing anyway.

Did you read the article? A boy asked the girl to slow dance and the principal told her she couldn’t say no.

 

[luvsJack]

I have NEVER had to physically touch ANY person I was partnered with for project work. A slow dance at a Valentine's Dance in a darken gym with music 300 other kids and a few adults is way different than being in a classroom doing a project. Nobody had said the the girls could be rude in the manner that the declined a boy , but that a "No Thank you" should be respected.

So we know that it was a dark gym and just a few adults? I didn't see that in the article? You do realize it was during the school day??

 

[lovemygoofy]

I am in the Deep South. The very heart and soul of the belief that women should be nice and kind. And had not one issue of saying a loud no or even giving a swift slap in the face, elbow to the ribs or knee in the groin if necessary (never was but I wasn't afraid to do it). See, somehow I was taught that balance by my mom and grandmother. Sort of like Patrick Swazey said "be nice until its time to not be nice".

But my point is that we, as a society, tend to swing things from one extreme to the other. And I find it hard to believe that there isn't a happy medium in teaching socialization skills and being compassionate and being a doormat for whatever anyone wants to do to or with you.

What do you want from the female population? I'm about as Southern as you can get and you know what? I was taught I can so no to a man anytime, any place and for anything I did not want. You want us to teach "kindness" by forcing females to say yes any time a male approaches them and setting the precedent that their needs or instincts don't matter because the female population has to be kind? How about we teach guys that NO is a sentence and it's not life altering or the end all be all? In the end we are doing a disservice to all these children by not showing them how to grow and mature.

 

[Turn the Page]

I'm not sure what it is you are asking here. Are you implying that because during a slow dance it's not "bad" touch, that kids should be comfortable with it?

No, I'm implying that kids should be able to tell the difference between dancing and rape.

 

[luvsJack]

What do you want from the female population? I'm about as Southern as you can get and you know what? I was taught I can so no to a man anytime, any place and for anything I did not want. You want us to teach "kindness" by forcing females to say yes any time a male approaches them and setting the precedent that their needs or instincts don't matter because the female population has to be kind? How about we teach guys that NO is a sentence and it's not life altering or the end all be all? In the end we are doing a disservice to all these children by not showing them how to grow and mature.

I think we need to teach our children, male and female to be kind and compassionate. I think we need to have discussions with our kids about including all people. And we need to have discussions with how they are to treat each other. Whether dating, hanging out, at a dance, or whatever.

Believe me, I was taught the same thing. But I was also taught to be compassionate. And to think of how I am making someone feel but not at the expense of my own safety or well being. Ask me to dance at a chaperoned dance, I would say yes. Ask me to go off in a dark alley with you, or to get in the car or to take a ride or whatever to get me alone and the answer was a loud no. Period. I knew the difference.

 

[BLAZEY]

So we know that it was a dark gym and just a few adults? I didn't see that in the article? You do realize it was during the school day??

That's what middle school dances were like, the WHOLE school or Grade level in the gym music and a few adults, I went to a couple because my friend wanted to go, wasn't my thing. Our gyms don't have windows in them so maybe a door might be open, but yes they were darkened, maybe 1/2 lit, or coloured lighting. And yes ours were during the school day as well. I'll find out next year if they've changed if my daughter goes to middle school next year.

 

[Hikergirl]

No, I'm implying that kids should be able to tell the difference between dancing and rape.

Ok, so do you feel that unwanted or uninvited touching is OK as long as it isn't rape?

 

[Hikergirl]

I think we need to teach our children, male and female to be kind and compassionate. I think we need to have discussions with our kids about including all people. And we need to have discussions with how they are to treat each other. Whether dating, hanging out, at a dance, or whatever.

I asked before and you didn't answer- is saying "no thank you" rude?
Isn't that part of teaching your child how to behave- if someone asks you to do something you don't want to you can say "no thank you". And if you are told that, you accept it and say "OK".
None of that is wrong or rude, it's just life.

 

[lovemygoofy]

I think we need to teach our children, male and female to be kind and compassionate. I think we need to have discussions with our kids about including all people. And we need to have discussions with how they are to treat each other. Whether dating, hanging out, at a dance, or whatever.

Believe me, I was taught the same thing. But I was also taught to be compassionate. And to think of how I am making someone feel but not at the expense of my own safety or well being. Ask me to dance at a chaperoned dance, I would say yes. Ask me to go off in a dark alley with you, or to get in the car or to take a ride or whatever to get me alone and the answer was a loud no. Period. I knew the difference.

There is a big difference in so many personalities though. Some young ladies already have enough personality to navigate difficult situations that develop during young teen years and there lots of young ladies not able to navigate those tricky situations. Frankly sometimes a dance is not just a dance in the teen years and people blow things out proportion. I was much more willing and understanding at 17,18,19 than understanding at 13. Forcing and requiring or saying the are lacking in compassion for saying no just isn't fair. It also setting young men up to fail by never learning and understanding that they aren't always going to get what they want.

 

[PollyannaMom]

So telling someone "no thank you" is rude?

I don't think so. I think saying "Eeewww, no!" is rude, but saying "No thanks, I'm sitting this one out" is politely declining.

 

[Hikergirl]

I don't think so. I think saying "Eeewww, no!" is rude, but saying "No thanks, I'm sitting this one out" is politely declining.

I agree, but it seems for some saying no thanks is rude I guess.
Maybe they didn't hear it a lot growing up

 

[Disneypro1]

Sometimes you have your own personal reasons not too.
Refusing to dance with someone is not unkind.

This.

 

[Disneypro1]

Someone mentioned locker room chat and boys will be boys.... well. Yes. Boys will be boys and girls will be girls. And will be for the next 2000 years. It’s ok..

also. Saying no or yes. Ends with that. One doesn’t need to worry of it’s said “nicely” or not. Just a simply Nope. Or Yes. Is all that’s needed. All this feelings crap is meaningless. People will survive getting their feeling hurt. Goodness.

 

[minthorne]

Who knows what happened. But there is no right or wrong reason. If someone. A kid or not. Doesn’t want to do something with someone. Dance. Movie or whatever. Don’t do it.

I wish that was true at work. There have been people I don't wan to do stuff with but I have to. I think it is call responsibility

 

[minthorne]

Common or not, it's still a pet peeve of mine.

Speak for yourself! I don't have an issue at all being called a "girl". Makes me feel young.

 

[mjkacmom]

And that is great for you, I would respect my daughter more for doing what she wanted than what she was expected to do in that case. I didn't raise her to make herself uncomfortable in order to make everyone else happy. I raised her to be strong and stand up for herself.

Well good for her being strong enough to refuse to dance with a boy just because he was disabled, definitely deserves respect.

 

[tzolkin]

So we can't possibly teach our daughters the difference in saying yes to a dance and no to sex? Funny, I danced with a lot of people in my teen years. Never had an issue with saying a loud and clear no to other things. What is the change?

The change is that in the past, there's no way the school principal would force a girl to dance with a boy who made her uncomfortable because they were concerned about the boys' self esteem.

No, I'm implying that kids should be able to tell the difference between dancing and rape.

Of course kids can tell the difference between dancing and rape. But just because it's not "rape" doesn't mean that someone should have to be forced to allow someone else to touch them.

 

[Moliphino]

So, I have different perspective about all this. There is no way crazy hell I'm forcing my daughter to smile and do as told when someone asks her to dance. She's hardly going to pimp herself out for a grade or any other reason that includes boosting self esteem.
BUT
I'm about to get on my soapbox in a major way. I work in suicide prevention and one of the biggest demographics for suicide is young men. We HAVE to be teaching young men to manage emotions and disappointment and broken hearts. We aren't letting children lose anymore nor teaching them to lose gracefully and it's killing them. One of the most basic ways is letting people say no to dancing when asked. Young people have to be taught how to win and lose gracefully. It is lost art and big part of helping people development.

At the other end, you have the men who never learned how to deal with rejection who end up harassing/assaulting/murdering the women who turn them down.