middle school dance -- girls can't turn down a guy who asks them

[Hikergirl]

And that statement right there is why the amount of compassion people have for others decreases with each generation.

If your daughter won't dance, talk, walk with someone because of his looks that is way too shallow for words.

Oh please, girls want to dance with who they want to dance with, and newsflash- that is usually someone they find attractive.
Being expected to say yes to every Tom, Dick and Harry that asks to avoid being labled "shallow" is ridiculous.
You may be OK with forcing your daughter to do things she doesn't want too, but I'm not.

 

[wenrob]

Well I wouldn't go so far as to say "something they do not want to do for whatever reason" (because then they'll all be telling me they simply don't want to do the math homework ) I definitely agree that this policy goes too far!

No one should be forced to accept an invitation - whether it's to dance, be partners on a project, or play at recess. I'm all for teaching compassion and inspiring kindness, but if it's forced, it's not compassion or kindness. It will just be resented, and we're not solving anything, only changing who's uncomfortable.

LOL I should have clarified that it was in context of this discussion.

Your last paragraph is dead on. Especially about changing who in uncomfortable.

 

[luvsJack]

If you read my post that you quoted no, being paired for a class project is not rape culture. Having to say ‘yes’ to a slow dance so a kids ego doesn’t get bruised IS. I believe kids need to learn compassion but teaching kids, in particular girls, that they MUST say yes to something they’re uncomfortable with just to be nice sends a dangerous message. There are far better ways to do it.

So we can't possibly teach our daughters the difference in saying yes to a dance and no to sex? Funny, I danced with a lot of people in my teen years. Never had an issue with saying a loud and clear no to other things. What is the change?

 

[gotomu212]

So is pairing them up to work on a project contributing to rape culture? Sometimes I think we go from extreme to extreme. There has to be a happy medium.

If a girl is choosing to say "no" because of petty reasons, like the boy is "ugly" or the boy is "weird"(not perverted just not like the other boys)---that girl needs to learn compassion and needs to learn that sometimes you just need to be nice. But she also needs to know if said boy says or does anything inappropriate, its ok to walk away in that moment. And that there is a difference in saying "yes" to a dance on a gym floor in front of a bunch of adults and not being able to say no to sex. A HUGE difference. Can our girls not understand that? (and you can reverse girl/boy in any of that statement)

Boys and girls need to know what is and isn't appropriate in the ways they act around and toward each other.

I just think our boys and our girls need a lot more teaching on this subject than whether or not its ok to say no or not.

So here’s what personally bothers me about the “girl needs to learn compassion and needs to learn that sometimes you just need to be nice” line: girls and women have historically been made to think that they need to be ”nice” and be “kind” to spare others feelings and one form that takes it less control over their own bodies and who touches them. Talking with middle age women most of us have stories of sexual contact/even assaults that occurred because we felt like we couldn’t speak up more forcefully or we would say no but not in the “ no, touch me again I will scream and try to hit” way but in the “please don’t, I don’t want that way”. A lot of that stems from how we were socialized very early on to be ”nice” and in a way that it was okay for someone to hug us, put an arm around us, or slow dance with us.

Personally I’m not okay with that anymore, and definitely not for my daughter. She does not need to permit anyone the right to put their hands on her waist and hold hands for a slow dance unless she would like them to do that. I hope she says a kind no thank you, I hope that she does it discreetly and doesn’t make fun of anyone, but that’s as nice as she needs to be when it comes to people putting their hands on her actual body. I have personally cringed when a man I don’t like has put his hand on my back or arm around my waist in public, so even though it’s a dance in front of adults, having an unwanted physical touch is no better just because others see it to me.

 

[mjkacmom]

Oh please, girls want to dance with who they want to dance with, and newsflash- that is usually someone they find attractive.
Being expected to say yes to every Tom, Dick and Harry that asks to avoid being labled "shallow" is ridiculous.
You may be OK with forcing your daughter to do things she doesn't want too, but I'm not.

I would not make my daughter dance with any Tom dick or Harry, but if she turned down someone because they were disabled, I’d lose a little respect for her. However, I honestly can’t imagine that ever happening.

 

[Turn the Page]

If you read my post that you quoted no, being paired for a class project is not rape culture. Having to say ‘yes’ to a slow dance so a kids ego doesn’t get bruised IS. I believe kids need to learn compassion but teaching kids, in particular girls, that they MUST say yes to something they’re uncomfortable with just to be nice sends a dangerous message. There are far better ways to do it.

Uncomfortable in what way though? Uncomfortable because they feel like something is 'off' is one thing. Uncomfortable because the kid wears glasses is another.

I also agree with Luvsjack in that it is a large leap to go from teaching girls they can dance with a boy they may not necessarily prefer at a dance (and I do agree that there is a difference between square dancing in gym class and slow dancing at an after school dance) and not being able to say no to rape. I really don't feel like this is a black and white issue and if we all think our kids are too stupid to tell the difference between a dance at a school function and rape then we should probably be focusing on making our kids more intelligent.

 

[lovemygoofy]

So, I have different perspective about all this. There is no way crazy hell I'm forcing my daughter to smile and do as told when someone asks her to dance. She's hardly going to pimp herself out for a grade or any other reason that includes boosting self esteem.
BUT
I'm about to get on my soapbox in a major way. I work in suicide prevention and one of the biggest demographics for suicide is young men. We HAVE to be teaching young men to manage emotions and disappointment and broken hearts. We aren't letting children lose anymore nor teaching them to lose gracefully and it's killing them. One of the most basic ways is letting people say no to dancing when asked. Young people have to be taught how to win and lose gracefully. It is lost art and big part of helping people development.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Who cares. Can you post a link to the law that says anyone must be kind to everyone? So tired of all of this.

I'm beginining to think you aren't actually Mr. Rogers

 

[luvsJack]

There is a HUGE difference between working on project in a group setting/ squared dance lesson and being FORCED to say yes to any/every classmate that asks for a slow dance with more body contact than a simple hand touch at the "fun" Valentine's dance.

I said paired. Didn't say anything about a group. TWO people being paired up to do a project. That would work just about as closely as two kids would be on the dance floor in front of a group of adults. These kids aren't dancing in the back alley somewhere.

I am all for our girls needing to know its ok to say no. 110%. Taught my own that for 18 years. I just think we are passing the balance as usual in our society from "its ok to say no" to "its ok to be rude".

 

[Hikergirl]

I would not make my daughter dance with any Tom dick or Harry, but if she turned down someone because they were disabled, I’d lose a little respect for her. However, I honestly can’t imagine that ever happening.

And that is great for you, I would respect my daughter more for doing what she wanted than what she was expected to do in that case. I didn't raise her to make herself uncomfortable in order to make everyone else happy. I raised her to be strong and stand up for herself.

 

[DuskKodesh]

If someone asks for anything then the recipient of the ask should be allowed to say no. In a lesson no one is asking for work, group projects or not. In a real PE class when kids are paired up no one asked. But if someone asks for anything then the recipient should have the right to say no. Always, for any reason. The person who asks should be made aware that a 'no' could be what they receive. I believe from reading this article that this school doesn't seem to understand what 'ask' even means.

 

[Hikergirl]

I said paired. Didn't say anything about a group. TWO people being paired up to do a project. That would work just about as closely as two kids would be on the dance floor in front of a group of adults. These kids aren't dancing in the back alley somewhere.

I am all for our girls needing to know its ok to say no. 110%. Taught my own that for 18 years. I just think we are passing the balance as usual in our society from "its ok to say no" to "its ok to be rude".

So telling someone "no thank you" is rude?

 

[wenrob]

So we can't possibly teach our daughters the difference in saying yes to a dance and no to sex? Funny, I danced with a lot of people in my teen years. Never had an issue with saying a loud and clear no to other things. What is the change?

You’re skipping that these were 11 year olds and that it was a slow dance. You’re also skimming over being required to say yes. I want my daughter to know she can say no to any kind of touching she is uncomfortable with and I want my son to know that it’s alright to be rejected and vice versa.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

All this talk of square dancing in school reminds me of when I learned that Henry Ford promoted square dancing in schools because he thought that jazz was a Jewish conspiracy

https://www.mic.com/articles/186892...against-an-anti-semitic-jazz-dance-conspiracy
Now, don't take this to mean square dancing is bad. Just that there was an agenda behind some people wanting it taught in schools.

I certainly understand the importance of physical fitness, but I don't get learning to dance in school.

 

[wvjules]

All this talk of square dancing in school reminds me of when I learned that Henry Ford promoted square dancing in schools because he thought the genre was a Jewish conspiracy

https://www.mic.com/articles/186892...against-an-anti-semitic-jazz-dance-conspiracy
Now, don't take this to mean square dancing is bad. Just that there was an agenda behind some people wanting it taught in schools.

I certainly understand the importance of physical fitness, but I don't get learning to dance in school.

Same.

 

[Turn the Page]

Do we not teach kids good touch/bad touch anymore?

I am also confused about a slow dance for 11 year olds. We have dances at our middle school but I don't even think they have slow dances.

And further, at that age, around here at that age the girls all dance in a group with their friends for the most part. There isn't much partner dancing anyway.

 

[mrodgers]

So we can't possibly teach our daughters the difference in saying yes to a dance and no to sex? Funny, I danced with a lot of people in my teen years. Never had an issue with saying a loud and clear no to other things. What is the change?

The change is everyone expecting everyone to do exactly as ones opinion thinks

 

[BLAZEY]

I said paired. Didn't say anything about a group. TWO people being paired up to do a project. That would work just about as closely as two kids would be on the dance floor in front of a group of adults. These kids aren't dancing in the back alley somewhere.

I am all for our girls needing to know its ok to say no. 110%. Taught my own that for 18 years. I just think we are passing the balance as usual in our society from "its ok to say no" to "its ok to be rude".

I have NEVER had to physically touch ANY person I was partnered with for project work. A slow dance at a Valentine's Dance in a darken gym with music 300 other kids and a few adults is way different than being in a classroom doing a project. Nobody had said the the girls could be rude in the manner that the declined a boy , but that a "No Thank you" should be respected.

 

[luvsJack]

So here’s what personally bothers me about the “girl needs to learn compassion and needs to learn that sometimes you just need to be nice” line: girls and women have historically been made to think that they need to be ”nice” and be “kind” to spare others feelings and one form that takes it less control over their own bodies and who touches them. Talking with middle age women most of us have stories of sexual contact/even assaults that occurred because we felt like we couldn’t speak up more forcefully or we would say no but not in the “ no, touch me again I will scream and try to hit” way but in the “please don’t, I don’t want that way”. A lot of that stems from how we were socialized very early on to be ”nice” and in a way that it was okay for someone to hug us, put an arm around us, or slow dance with us.

Personally I’m not okay with that anymore, and definitely not for my daughter. She does not need to permit anyone the right to put their hands on her waist and hold hands for a slow dance unless she would like them to do that. I hope she says a kind no thank you, I hope that she does it discreetly and doesn’t make fun of anyone, but that’s as nice as she needs to be when it comes to people putting their hands on her actual body. I have personally cringed when a man I don’t like has put his hand on my back or arm around my waist in public, so even though it’s a dance in front of adults, having an unwanted physical touch is no better just because others see it to me.

I am in the Deep South. The very heart and soul of the belief that women should be nice and kind. And had not one issue of saying a loud no or even giving a swift slap in the face, elbow to the ribs or knee in the groin if necessary (never was but I wasn't afraid to do it). See, somehow I was taught that balance by my mom and grandmother. Sort of like Patrick Swazey said "be nice until its time to not be nice".

But my point is that we, as a society, tend to swing things from one extreme to the other. And I find it hard to believe that there isn't a happy medium in teaching socialization skills and being compassionate and being a doormat for whatever anyone wants to do to or with you.

 

[wvjules]

Do we not teach kids good touch/bad touch anymore?

If it's a touch I don't want then it's a bad touch, no?