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Medicaid lookback

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The places I looked at for my dad had limited Medicaid beds, so you want to be private pay as long as possible to get a chance at getting one, otherwise they can send you anywhere when money runs out.
You are right about that. My husband worked several years in a nursing home network. The state had a certain number of Medicaid allotments and the different facilities would compete for them. Medicaid funds are guaranteed filled beds.
 
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While I don't deny that in some (heck, maybe many) cases it's just plain greed and entitlement on the part of families, what I think is a gut reaction for the majority of Americans is that the amount of money that skilled nursing care currently costs seems incredibly out of line with how long it took the applicant to earn it, and the initial reaction is to try to protect those modest family goals that they worked toward all their adult lives, like home ownership, helping to send a grandchild to college, or to give them a used car. If the most money the family breadwinner ever made in a year was $15K (true in my parents' case, because my Dad died in 1974), paying that much for one month of care seems unreal, and their first reaction is to say, "Wait, why did I pay taxes into this system for all those decades only to be treated like some kind of financial deadbeat now that I'm experiencing a health crisis? Why can't just my modest home that I worked so hard to pay for pass to my children?" It seems outrageous to them that the US government is paying companies what they might think of as up to a couple of years' normal full-time earnings for a calendar quarter of care that does not include any hospitalization or doctor visits.

OP's mom always said she would be "rich" when Mom died; that was probably because her Mom undoubtedly thought that an inheritance equal to the value of a nice middle-class home would be considered a really big windfall coming all at once. Now, even with today's inflated home values, the equity value of an average home that it took 30 years to buy will be gone after paying just over 2 years of skilled nursing facility costs. It takes many working-class elderly quite a while to come to terms with what suddenly looks like abject career failure when they start having to deal with the bite of health care bills this size on a regular basis. It's also often a shock to their children, who thought of Mom and Dad as financially solid until suddenly illness changes the stakes, and overnight they no longer are. There is also a great loss of dignity there: it is humiliating to be the grandparent who cannot give a graduation gift or a wedding gift; who cannot even pass down a car that they can no longer drive because it is worth too much on paper.

I'll never forget my Mother's tears as she handed me a paper greeting card for my college graduation gift and apologized for never having been able to help with my tuition, or my MIL crying her eyes out, sobbing that the product of decades of 12 hour days on a chemical plant line that my FIL worked until it killed him, decades of never eating in a restaurant, never going on a vacation, never buying a piece of brand-name clothing ... came down in the end to life in a 12 x18 ft box shared with a stranger, where they even charged extra for watching TV. Three years ago my eldest sister died suddenly of the flu, and we all said a prayer of thanks that she was spared that awful slow slide back to poverty. I hope to God that I go the same way, because my youngest child is still a minor, and I know that pretty soon I'll probably have to give up paying for the long-term-care insurance that I took out when her brother was born, because even though I'm still working full-time, the premium has grown so much that it threatens to eat my entire paycheck by the time she finishes college.

I cut the OP some slack for an impulse to try to sustain her mother's small illusion of middle-class prosperity for just that little while longer, when the abyss of poverty is again looming at the end of the already dark tunnel she finds herself in. This is one of those social responsibility issues that seems very straightforward until you personally find yourself on the ugly side of it in spite of doing everything right to the best of your ability for an entire lifetime. When that happens to you or to someone you love, shades of grey may suddenly appear where you could not see them from your previous vantage point, and it takes a while to mentally work through that. I also agree that it's pretty rough on folks who work for the system to have to deal with that hurt & desperation day after day; it's just rough, period, and I can't really blame people for feeling angry about it all-around.

I get where the anger and frustration comes from.

However, you can't have it both ways. (Not you, personally). You can't spend your whole life saying "my house is an investment" and put all your financial efforts into saving and building up a net worth and ALSO then say you don't want to use that money on your own care. Too many people feel compelled to pass along inheritances rather than spend their money on end of life care.

Medicaid is an entitlement program. It is asset based, like every other social safety net program. If you can sell assets for liquid cash, you must exhaust those before getting medicaid. Makes perfect sense.

People who choose to live frugally should do so with the mindset that the monies saved will be used by them EVENTUALLY, and they will die with a net worth of zero. That is the ideal outcome. Anything left over is a bonus for their next of kin. It is foolish to live your life assuming that you will never need end of life care. Death is a certainty, but no one can predict how that end comes to be.

If it is absolutely essential to leave an inheritance, you need life insurance policies.
 
I'd like to give her four toddler great-grandchildren a monetary Christmas gift from her. I was thinking of a $2,500 I bond for each child.

she is in a memory care facility

It's about my mother doing something for them before the state takes the rest of her money. I am not worried about setting up my grandchildren myself.

So without sounding mean the thing is your mother is simply incapable in the present of making these decisions you think she would have made. She's in a memory care facility for a reason and to take some of her money to give to someone else would be unconscionable (regardless of legality or not though yes I would get legal advice for that) no matter how you personally think she would have handled it.

My suggestion, however unpopular it may be, is if you truly are thinking of her great grandchildren gift them from your own money these bonds (even if you need to lower the intended amount of each bond to do so) but do it in the name/memory of your mother. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. In the event your mother passes before her funds run out you could also do this from your portion of what is left that is also your choice as well but after she has passed and the funds are now simply yours (assuming all other of her debts have already been accounted for of course out of it).

My husband received some bonds from his grandmother but they were done many years before the mental decline of his grandmother. This is unfortunately one of those things that it would have been something to do to secure this gesture without affecting funds later on in life towards actual care.
 
i know that in california some counties are VERY ACTIVE in enforcing the law that requires even distant blood relatives to provide for the disposition of remains (health and safety code sections §7100 and 7103). failure to act in a timely manner is a criminal misdemeanor violation and could result in the next of kin being required to pay up to three times the cost of the disposition. section §7100 of the health and safety code establishes next of kin. i was personalty subjected to this law and despite the fact that the decedent and i were estranged due to his (on police record) threats of violence against me i learned from a very well respected attorney in the county that contacted me that the particular county was very active in pursing enforcement and my failing to make arrangements immediately would have resulted not only in a criminal prosecution but that county would enact their practice of utilizing the most expensive form of disposition which i would be responsible for repayment to them at the rate of 3x (in addition to the civil penalties of up to $10,000).

im guessing some northern CA counties. If it happened in any of the larger counties in Southern California, you can bet it would make the news
 


"... In the event your mother passes before her funds run out you could also do this from your portion of what is left that is also your choice as well but after she has passed and the funds are now simply yours (assuming all other of her debts have already been accounted for of course out of it)."
I do not agree with this as stated. If her mother passes, the funds become part of the decedent's estate. During that period, there are legal priorities of payment. Among these, the creditors must be paid. But also expenses of the estate like administration, burial etc. Then there are specific bequests and more. There are other heirs/beneficiaries too. So, OP cannot just start writing checks to people who are probably not beneficiaries of an estate. She must wait until, as an heir, she receives her inheritance. At that point, the funds belong to OP and she can gift funds to whomever she pleases.
 
I do not agree with this as stated. If her mother passes, the funds become part of the decedent's estate. During that period, there are legal priorities of payment. Among these, the creditors must be paid. But also expenses of the estate like administration, burial etc. Then there are specific bequests and more. There are other heirs/beneficiaries too. So, OP cannot just start writing checks to people who are probably not beneficiaries of an estate. She must wait until, as an heir, she receives her inheritance. At that point, the funds belong to OP and she can gift funds to whomever she pleases.
You're not really looking at my comment correctly. I'm talking about when everything is all settled, when all debts are paid and using the portion the OP receives as part of her share. I did clearly state a portion of the OP's share. I not once insinuated taking money from the entire estate. You've read something that wasn't there. As a recipient of a small amount from my mom's share of money leftover from my grandmother's estate I know how that worked. It took around 2 years or so for things to be fully settled after debts and things being split 4 ways (a 5th child a different arrangement was made due to her autism) and another 6 months before funds was able to even be taken from it to even be gifted to me. Regardless it is an option should there be any money left over (meaning the OP's mother passes before it runs out and all other things are taken care of that have to be).
 
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You're not really looking at my comment correctly. I'm talking about when everything is all settled, when all debts are paid and using the portion the OP receives as part of her share. I did clearly state a portion of the OP's share. I not once insinuated taking money from the entire estate. You've read something that wasn't there. As a recipient of a small amount from my mom's share of money leftover from my grandmother's estate I know how that worked. It took around 2 years or so for things to be fully settled after debts and things being split 4 ways (a 5th child a different arrangement was made due to her autism) and another 6 months before funds was able to even be taken from it to even be gifted to me. Regardless it is an option should there be any money left over (meaning the OP's mother passes before it runs out and all other things are taken care of that have to be).
I understand what you are saying. But, it must still be solely from OP's share and then only after full and final distribution is authorized. In other words, OP's right to direct the funds to the great grands is directing her own funds after they have been distributed to her; and not before.
What you received was from what your mother inherited. It was a gift from your mother. At the end of a decedent's estate after everything is distributed to the remainder beneficiaries or heirs, there is never anything "left over." Full and final distribution of the estate is the end of the estate. If anything is discovered afterwards, that also must be distributed to the "rest, residue and remainder" beneficiaries.
 
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i know that in california some counties are VERY ACTIVE in enforcing the law that requires even distant blood relatives to provide for the disposition of remains (health and safety code sections §7100 and 7103). failure to act in a timely manner is a criminal misdemeanor violation and could result in the next of kin being required to pay up to three times the cost of the disposition. section §7100 of the health and safety code establishes next of kin. i was personalty subjected to this law and despite the fact that the decedent and i were estranged due to his (on police record) threats of violence against me i learned from a very well respected attorney in the county that contacted me that the particular county was very active in pursing enforcement and my failing to make arrangements immediately would have resulted not only in a criminal prosecution but that county would enact their practice of utilizing the most expensive form of disposition which i would be responsible for repayment to them at the rate of 3x (in addition to the civil penalties of up to $10,000).
That is a pretty obscure example. But the law doesn't say how fancy a disposition you have to pay far. While dispositions aren't cheap, the bare minimum is a lot less expensive than a month of LTC.
 
I understand what you are saying. But, it must still be solely from OP's share and then only after full and final distribution is authorized. In other words, OP's right to direct the funds to the great grands is directing her own funds after they have been distributed to her; and not before.
What you received was from what your mother inherited. It was a gift from your mother. At the end of a decedent's estate after everything is distributed to the remainder beneficiaries or heirs, there is never anything "left over."
I said twice it would be from the OP's share. Then I reiterated that in my response to you. I'm talking about when the share is 100% completely and utterly just the OP's to do with whatever she wants.

You're confusing left over to mean something else. Of course the gift was from my mother, who else do you think it was from?? Because I sure as heck didn't make any comments that it was from my grandmother. I was giving IRL example to what my advice was in my first comment.

To break it down in my original comment:
  • The OP wants to take money from her mother to give to her grandchildren (the great grandchildren of her mom).
  • My advice was to either do it
    • out of the OP's pocket right now
    • OR
    • if the OP's mother passes before all money has run out and all obligations are taken care of whatever is the OP's amount that is fully hers now to do the bond for the children.

In case my somewhat subtle (ETA: I looked back and I did say "from your own money" so not subtle) message was lost in my original comment both choices are coming from the OP's pocketbook not her mother's (in a nudge as to what I personally thought the OP should be doing as I mentioned it was unconscionable to take from her mother's money regardless if it is legal or not).

The difference between the two is if the OP really thinks her mother would want this for her great-grandchildren to do it now but as a more like "your great-grandmother would want this"/"in the name of your great-grandmother when the money is 100% assured vs an unknown because it's based on when the OP's mother passes and what financials exist then (which obviously includes it could be nothing to be had).

I cannot be any clearer than that, I hope that alleviates your concerns with respects to my opinion.
 
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Up here nursing homes are part of our healthcare system and it's income based. In my province the highest daily rate which in based on income and marital status is $96.40 a day. Plus you have to pay for your home phone, tv, haircuts, etc.
My understanding is assets are not considered just your income.
 
im guessing some northern CA counties. If it happened in any of the larger counties in Southern California, you can bet it would make the news
yes, and a rather wealthy northern california county. i suspect it doesn't make the news when it happens is b/c 99.9% of anyone that gets impacted by it runs the numbers (or a quick call to an attorney brings the numbers to light). you are put in about a 72 hour time crunch during which you have to have whatever company is handling the remains make formal contact with the county coroner's office. if you don't the county takes over and decides, and in the case of the one i was dealing with defaults to one of their contracted which basically has 2 tiers-indigent (lowest cost/only available to the county that pays it) or a much more costly (which not only the contractor makes out on but the county pursues their 3x reimbursement for). so with only 72 hours to deal with this people tend to quickly figure out the most reasonable cost option so they don't end up on the hook for over 5 figures in JUST costs (with the 3x penalty) plus the potential 10K fine but also the associated attorney and courts costs (if you don't settle with the county for 'just' the 3x so they opt to not prosecute).

when it's someone you've had a terrible history with the last thing you would want to do is prolong the process let alone have to discuss it in the media.


That is a pretty obscure example. But the law doesn't say how fancy a disposition you have to pay far. While dispositions aren't cheap, the bare minimum is a lot less expensive than a month of LTC.

county's choice-and they can make it a dettterant to not 'stepping up' by making it the most costly choice they have available (and making a 200 percent profit on it). cost of ltc has nothing to do with it. apples and oranges.
 
I get where the anger and frustration comes from.

However, you can't have it both ways. (Not you, personally). You can't spend your whole life saying "my house is an investment" and put all your financial efforts into saving and building up a net worth and ALSO then say you don't want to use that money on your own care. Too many people feel compelled to pass along inheritances rather than spend their money on end of life care.

Medicaid is an entitlement program. It is asset based, like every other social safety net program. If you can sell assets for liquid cash, you must exhaust those before getting medicaid. Makes perfect sense.

People who choose to live frugally should do so with the mindset that the monies saved will be used by them EVENTUALLY, and they will die with a net worth of zero. That is the ideal outcome. Anything left over is a bonus for their next of kin. It is foolish to live your life assuming that you will never need end of life care. Death is a certainty, but no one can predict how that end comes to be.

If it is absolutely essential to leave an inheritance, you need life insurance policies.
My point was that I didn't think it was right to imply that the OP and others in a similar boat are somehow conniving thieves just because they have the impulse to carry out a parent's wishes with a fairly small percentage of that parents' money. (Doing it anyway once you find out it's actually against the law would be different, but simply asking about it shouldn't draw condemnation.)

Yes, it makes sense that a safety net for the poor should require that people who use it to actually be poor, and to encourage people to save for end-of-life care, but with all of the money the law encourages to be wasted on all kinds of overpriced things, it seems that the state and Federal government's definition of poor enough often seems deliberately designed to humiliate. In almost every case where someone who once was able to pay has to apply to Medicaid, they have too many assets for the program and are forced to deliberately spend them down to qualify. It's not enough money to pay the next nursing home bill, but it's too much to be considered poor, so you get told to do weird things like put new appliances in your home (which you pretend you might some day move back into and thus have to keep maintaining just a tiny bit with the allowed funds, but which everyone involved knows will have to be signed over in about a year or so), or worse, told to use the money to buy a pre-paid funeral plan. With the number of single people growing old in America, that adds up to hundreds of thousands of dollars each year spent on particular commerical items exempt from asset consideration. A logical system would allow people to give that limited amount of discretionary money to a child's educational fund instead of buying a burial plot for that child (yes, that's allowed in some places!), thus letting it do some little true good for one's own family rather than enriching the funeral profession.

Right now in my state, the amount that Medicaid residents are allowed to hold back from retirement income for incidental expenses (by which my mother's facility meant all prescription deductibles, laundry charges, clothing, shoes, special foods not provided by the nursing home, over-the-counter medications, personal-care items like deodorant and soap and shampoo and skin lotion, haircuts, maintenance of her wheelchair, any reading material, stamps and stationary, telephone charges, and yes, basic in-room television programming so you can watch the news, not HBO) is $50/month, which hasn't changed in over 30 years. The rest of it goes to the facility up to the cost billed for custodial care. Well, God help you if your family isn't able to supplement that with regular gifts, because even for a fragile 90 year old who can't get out much, $50/month is a miserable pittance in 2022. (My mother wasn't American by birth, and she lived for cups of hot tea, which the nursing home didn't provide; they only served coffee with meals. We spent more than $50/month just buying her daily 3 cups of tea, let alone keeping her clean and maintaining her wheelchair so that she could go to the restroom and the cafeteria on her own.) Rather understandably, Medicaid facilities often have a problem with theft, as residents take to stealing what they cannot buy for themselves: sweaters, shoes, religious items, costume jewelry, jars of candy kept for treats for grandchildren, decks of cards. Or underpaid staff members steal from the residents. It's obscene.

There has to be some way to create a middle ground, some world where being alone and "not having enough" isn't a choice between living on $50/mo or paying $6000/month (the typical average cash cost of residential skilled care in the US for a single person; memory care costs much more.)

Yes, spending down one's assets to exactly Zero at death would be ideal, but it isn't a very kind or practical goal unless your death and a finite period of time leading up to it could somehow be scheduled and meticulously pre-planned.
 
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yes, and a rather wealthy northern california county. i suspect it doesn't make the news when it happens is b/c 99.9% of anyone that gets impacted by it runs the numbers (or a quick call to an attorney brings the numbers to light). you are put in about a 72 hour time crunch during which you have to have whatever company is handling the remains make formal contact with the county coroner's office. if you don't the county takes over and decides, and in the case of the one i was dealing with defaults to one of their contracted which basically has 2 tiers-indigent (lowest cost/only available to the county that pays it) or a much more costly (which not only the contractor makes out on but the county pursues their 3x reimbursement for). so with only 72 hours to deal with this people tend to quickly figure out the most reasonable cost option so they don't end up on the hook for over 5 figures in JUST costs (with the 3x penalty) plus the potential 10K fine but also the associated attorney and courts costs (if you don't settle with the county for 'just' the 3x so they opt to not prosecute).

when it's someone you've had a terrible history with the last thing you would want to do is prolong the process let alone have to discuss it in the media.




county's choice-and they can make it a dettterant to not 'stepping up' by making it the most costly choice they have available (and making a 200 percent profit on it). cost of ltc has nothing to do with it. apples and oranges.
If I wasn't retired I'd pitch that as a story idea. First I have heard of that, and on the surface, just wrong.
 
you might want to research this a bit more. ssdi (social security disability insurance) is only an income program that after a 2 year waiting period brings eligibility to medicare with it. medicare only has VERY LIMITED payback provisions-it must be repaid to medicare if you get a settlement, judgment, award, or other payment later. you're responsible for making sure medicare gets repaid from the settlement, judgment, award, or other payment. otherwise-there's no repayment. medicaid does have provisions for repayment in some cases. both programs operate differently.

saying this as someone who administered these programs, dealt with estates of multiple family members who were reliant on medicare for decades of care (and there was never repayment) and due to my own disability as well as my adult son's-have dealt with it as both a primary and a secondary insurance for going on 2 decades (never any repayment to them EXCEPT when care was due to any auto accident and they had to be reimbursed out of the settlement).

it's horribly confusing but finding your local/state's medicare hotline from the medicare.gov site can get you in contact with someone to help you navigate this and explain it so it makes sense (not that does :sad2: ).
I had an attorney help me deal with the process last year, maybe I'll just ask the same attorney to help explain this now. It's not estate planning and I'm not elderly, I just need to grasp what is happening. I have found the whole process very blurry, I mean for a thing that affects so many millions of Americans how the whole thing works really should be common knowledge. Why aren't there hundreds of Ted Talks on this? I just don't get how tough it is at all, and how do young people help their parents?
 
I said twice it would be from the OP's share. Then I reiterated that in my response to you. I'm talking about when the share is 100% completely and utterly just the OP's to do with whatever she wants.

You're confusing left over to mean something else. Of course the gift was from my mother, who else do you think it was from?? Because I sure as heck didn't make any comments that it was from my grandmother. I was giving IRL example to what my advice was in my first comment.

To break it down in my original comment:
  • The OP wants to take money from her mother to give to her grandchildren (the great grandchildren of her mom).
  • My advice was to either do it
    • out of the OP's pocket right now
    • OR
    • if the OP's mother passes before all money has run out and all obligations are taken care of whatever is the OP's amount that is fully hers now to do the bond for the children.

In case my somewhat subtle (ETA: I looked back and I did say "from your own money" so not subtle) message was lost in my original comment both choices are coming from the OP's pocketbook not her mother's (in a nudge as to what I personally thought the OP should be doing as I mentioned it was unconscionable to take from her mother's money regardless if it is legal or not).

The difference between the two is if the OP really thinks her mother would want this for her great-grandchildren to do it now but as a more like "your great-grandmother would want this"/"in the name of your great-grandmother when the money is 100% assured vs an unknown because it's based on when the OP's mother passes and what financials exist then (which obviously includes it could be nothing to be had).

I cannot be any clearer than that, I hope that alleviates your concerns with respects to my opinion.
I still disagree with that portion of your advice that I quoted in my first reply to you. I have understood everything you said. Also it cannot be from OP’s share while the estate is still open.

You assume I am confusing “left over” or otherwise misunderstanding. No. I am not. I am very well versed in probates and estates. When an estate is completed, there are no leftover funds. Leftover was your word. When an estate is completed by final distribution the ownership changes, subject to very limited reopening and clawback rules. While Grandmother is alive, no one has a legally enforceable interest in being an heir or beneficiary. After death, the heirs or beneficiaries have a “beneficial ownership interest subject to administration of the estate.” After the decedent’s estate is finally distributed and closes, the property completes the change and is the property of the person receiving the distribution unless the distribution was improper.

Mom, as heir or beneficiary cannot simply waive or redirect distribution of her share of the estate (or a portion of it) to another person. There are rules for this. It depends on whether the gift to Mom was a specific bequest or as a “rest, residue and remainder beneficiary or heir.” If the latter, then it depends on whether the gift was per stripes or per capita. If Mom attempts to redirect a portion, Mom would have two choices: (1) receive it in Mom’s name when the estate closes and then gift it to whomever or (2) waive it. If waived and it is per stripes, then by law it is treated as if Mom had predeceased grandmother. If the gift from Grandmother to Mom was per stripes Mom’s share or a portion waived would go by Grandmother’s will to the next in line by state law — Mom’s children in equal shares. If per capita and Mom was receiving 25% and each of her other 3 siblings were getting 25%, then the waived amount would be divided equally three ways among Mom’s siblings. It would never reach the great grands. Now if Mom receives her whole share and the grandmother’s estate closes, then Mom can give her property to whomever she pleases. It does not retain the character of Grandmother’s property.

I understand in your last reply about being 100% sure. Also, the concept that “when Grandmother passes and what financials exist then” (your words) is not the whole picture. There are expenses and fees that arise after death that further diminish the distributable estate. For example, expenses of last illness, funeral expenses, appraiser fees to appraise property of the estate, ongoing utilities, HOA fees, lawn services, mortgage payments and property taxes. Tax preparation fees. Costs for care of animals until they are adopted. Costs to clear a house. Costs for lawn services, cleaning and repairing and to prepare a house for sale. Costs to sell a house. Court fees. Attorney fees. Proof of service fees for notices. Publishing fees to notify creditors. Personal Administrator/Personal Representative or Executor fees. So, I am saying I disagree with advising any distribution as a gift to the great grands prior to Mom’s entire inheritance being distributed to Mom. Then and only then can Mom gift to the great grands.

Did you know even that point is not failsafe 100% sure. (Again, your words.). That is because if the person handling the estate post death did not properly distribute it anyone with an interest, like a forgotten creditor or that aunt who would have received 1/3rd of the funds Mom waived and tried to re-direct to the great grands can move to re-open the estate and claw back the funds distributed in the wrong amount to the wrong person.

You can have whatever opinions you want. I just saw a red flag and addressed it. No further reply posts.
 
I still disagree with that portion of your advice that I quoted in my first reply to you. I have understood everything you said. Also it cannot be from OP’s share while the estate is still open.

You assume I am confusing “left over” or otherwise misunderstanding. No. I am not. I am very well versed in probates and estates. When an estate is completed, there are no leftover funds. Leftover was your word. When an estate is completed by final distribution the ownership changes, subject to very limited reopening and clawback rules. While Grandmother is alive, no one has a legally enforceable interest in being an heir or beneficiary. After death, the heirs or beneficiaries have a “beneficial ownership interest subject to administration of the estate.” After the decedent’s estate is finally distributed and closes, the property completes the change and is the property of the person receiving the distribution unless the distribution was improper.

Mom, as heir or beneficiary cannot simply waive or redirect distribution of her share of the estate (or a portion of it) to another person. There are rules for this. It depends on whether the gift to Mom was a specific bequest or as a “rest, residue and remainder beneficiary or heir.” If the latter, then it depends on whether the gift was per stripes or per capita. If Mom attempts to redirect a portion, Mom would have two choices: (1) receive it in Mom’s name when the estate closes and then gift it to whomever or (2) waive it. If waived and it is per stripes, then by law it is treated as if Mom had predeceased grandmother. If the gift from Grandmother to Mom was per stripes Mom’s share or a portion waived would go by Grandmother’s will to the next in line by state law — Mom’s children in equal shares. If per capita and Mom was receiving 25% and each of her other 3 siblings were getting 25%, then the waived amount would be divided equally three ways among Mom’s siblings. It would never reach the great grands. Now if Mom receives her whole share and the grandmother’s estate closes, then Mom can give her property to whomever she pleases. It does not retain the character of Grandmother’s property.

I understand in your last reply about being 100% sure. Also, the concept that “when Grandmother passes and what financials exist then” (your words) is not the whole picture. There are expenses and fees that arise after death that further diminish the distributable estate. For example, expenses of last illness, funeral expenses, appraiser fees to appraise property of the estate, ongoing utilities, HOA fees, lawn services, mortgage payments and property taxes. Tax preparation fees. Costs for care of animals until they are adopted. Costs to clear a house. Costs for lawn services, cleaning and repairing and to prepare a house for sale. Costs to sell a house. Court fees. Attorney fees. Proof of service fees for notices. Publishing fees to notify creditors. Personal Administrator/Personal Representative or Executor fees. So, I am saying I disagree with advising any distribution as a gift to the great grands prior to Mom’s entire inheritance being distributed to Mom. Then and only then can Mom gift to the great grands.

Did you know even that point is not failsafe 100% sure. (Again, your words.). That is because if the person handling the estate post death did not properly distribute it anyone with an interest, like a forgotten creditor or that aunt who would have received 1/3rd of the funds Mom waived and tried to re-direct to the great grands can move to re-open the estate and claw back the funds distributed in the wrong amount to the wrong person.

You can have whatever opinions you want. I just saw a red flag and addressed it. No further reply posts.
You have what you think I'm saying and are sticking with it regardless of how else I explain it. This comment below tells me you are doing that exactly because if you actually re-read my comments you'll see that's exactly what I've been saying all along.

if Mom receives her whole share and the grandmother’s estate closes, then Mom can give her property to whomever she pleases.

My entire scenario is with the above the case. Like I said multiple times. You're just going off elsewhere with your comments.
 
I still disagree with that portion of your advice that I quoted in my first reply to you. I have understood everything you said. Also it cannot be from OP’s share while the estate is still open.

You assume I am confusing “left over” or otherwise misunderstanding. No. I am not. I am very well versed in probates and estates. When an estate is completed, there are no leftover funds. Leftover was your word. When an estate is completed by final distribution the ownership changes, subject to very limited reopening and clawback rules. While Grandmother is alive, no one has a legally enforceable interest in being an heir or beneficiary. After death, the heirs or beneficiaries have a “beneficial ownership interest subject to administration of the estate.” After the decedent’s estate is finally distributed and closes, the property completes the change and is the property of the person receiving the distribution unless the distribution was improper.

Mom, as heir or beneficiary cannot simply waive or redirect distribution of her share of the estate (or a portion of it) to another person. There are rules for this. It depends on whether the gift to Mom was a specific bequest or as a “rest, residue and remainder beneficiary or heir.” If the latter, then it depends on whether the gift was per stripes or per capita. If Mom attempts to redirect a portion, Mom would have two choices: (1) receive it in Mom’s name when the estate closes and then gift it to whomever or (2) waive it. If waived and it is per stripes, then by law it is treated as if Mom had predeceased grandmother. If the gift from Grandmother to Mom was per stripes Mom’s share or a portion waived would go by Grandmother’s will to the next in line by state law — Mom’s children in equal shares. If per capita and Mom was receiving 25% and each of her other 3 siblings were getting 25%, then the waived amount would be divided equally three ways among Mom’s siblings. It would never reach the great grands. Now if Mom receives her whole share and the grandmother’s estate closes, then Mom can give her property to whomever she pleases. It does not retain the character of Grandmother’s property.

I understand in your last reply about being 100% sure. Also, the concept that “when Grandmother passes and what financials exist then” (your words) is not the whole picture. There are expenses and fees that arise after death that further diminish the distributable estate. For example, expenses of last illness, funeral expenses, appraiser fees to appraise property of the estate, ongoing utilities, HOA fees, lawn services, mortgage payments and property taxes. Tax preparation fees. Costs for care of animals until they are adopted. Costs to clear a house. Costs for lawn services, cleaning and repairing and to prepare a house for sale. Costs to sell a house. Court fees. Attorney fees. Proof of service fees for notices. Publishing fees to notify creditors. Personal Administrator/Personal Representative or Executor fees. So, I am saying I disagree with advising any distribution as a gift to the great grands prior to Mom’s entire inheritance being distributed to Mom. Then and only then can Mom gift to the great grands.

Did you know even that point is not failsafe 100% sure. (Again, your words.). That is because if the person handling the estate post death did not properly distribute it anyone with an interest, like a forgotten creditor or that aunt who would have received 1/3rd of the funds Mom waived and tried to re-direct to the great grands can move to re-open the estate and claw back the funds distributed in the wrong amount to the wrong person.

You can have whatever opinions you want. I just saw a red flag and addressed it. No further reply posts.

thank you for your concise and detailed explanations. the information you are providing just drives home how important it is to have late/end of life and estate planning in place-and for the person(s) entrusted with it understanding of all it entails. dh and i went through 2 nightmarish situations with handling both our mom's end of life and then estate issues. the sheer amount of time we wasted arguing with our siblings over the limitations our 'power' (their words not our) garnered us pertaining to the finances was hell. we lost it several times explaining and re-explaining that a power of attorney ends upon the death of the person and just b/c we had one when 'mom' was alive didn't mean after she died we could get access to all her personal records in long closed bank accounts to see which kid had gotten gifts vs. not or how she had spent her money in the last decades of her life (when she was entirely competent). uuuuuugggggggggh-this is specifically why we've named a neutral unrelated 3rd party to handle our estates, it's not a nightmare i would wish on anyone and well worth the cost.

thanks again.
 
I had an attorney help me deal with the process last year, maybe I'll just ask the same attorney to help explain this now. It's not estate planning and I'm not elderly, I just need to grasp what is happening. I have found the whole process very blurry, I mean for a thing that affects so many millions of Americans how the whole thing works really should be common knowledge. Why aren't there hundreds of Ted Talks on this? I just don't get how tough it is at all, and how do young people help their parents?

it's beyond blurry-it's a freaking blizzard. it was the single most complicated program i ever administered and the reason there's no ted talks or anything of the kind is b/c it's different everywhere. there are federal rules but individual states and even in some places-individual counties have their own rules and niche programs. medicare is one animal, medicaid is another, the state subsidized health plans just added another animal into that jungle of regulations. top it off with all the rules the aca threw into the mix-i cant imagine working it anymore.
 
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