Man Shot on Tube By Police

[Ware Bears]

Good for you Elaine - it's so important to carry on as normal and not give in to the terrorists.

It doesn't stop me feeling a little nervous, though. I do not like the tube at the best of times so will probably have us walking everywhere.

 

[jen_uk]

I know Im in the minority but I think that although the police were right to shoot the man they didnt have to kill him, they could have shot him in the leg or something instead of shooting him 5 times at close range as the witness reports suggest. It seems a bit over the top.

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

I know Im in the minority but I think that although the police were right to shoot the man they didnt have to kill him, they could have shot him in the leg or something instead of shooting him 5 times at close range as the witness reports suggest. It seems a bit over the top.

Unfortunately aiming to shoot somebody in the leg or the hand to disarm them is just TV fiction. There are very strict guidelines about when police can use their firearms: essentially the only time they can do so is when they believe there is an immediate threat to the lifes of themselves, police colleagues or members of the general public. If there is not this risk they are not allowed to shoot. If the risk is so severe that that the lives of innocent people are threatened the rules of engagement say that you must guarantee that the attacker is stopped. This means in most circumstances you fire at their torso or their head, which in most circumstances unfortunately means a lethal shooting. In the current circumstances the police guidelines have changed slightly to take account of the possibility that a suicide bomber will could be wearing a suicide vest packed with explosives - therefore police firearms officers have been instructed to shoot at the head if at all possible.

While the loss of an innocent life at Stockweel station is a tragedy for all concerned, I'm not sure the police could have done anything differently. There will be an independent inquiry to see what went wrong, but my guess is the police believed they were dealing with a suicide bomber who was making a desperate attempt to get onto a train to kill and maim innocent people. If I or my loved ones had been on that train I would want the police to make absolutely certain that they had stopped the attacker before he could detonate his bomb - unfortunately the only way to do this is by killing him. A shot to the legs or arms would have easily allowed a suicide bomber to press the trigger on his payload, which is a situation I'm sure we all would like to avoid if at all possible.

As Ken Livingstone said earlier today, the innocent Brazilian man who was killed at Stockwell was yet another victim of the bombers that have been tragetiing London in the last couple of weeks.



Regards

Rob

 

[kazzie]

I have very mixed feelings on this.Whilst it makes me feel a bit safer knowing the police are fighting terrorism anyway they can-I am uncomfortable with a man being shot dead without judge and jury.

I didn't post on here but in April my DD's 20 year old boyfriend was mugged for his mobile phone,as he didn't hand it over and he was stabbed multiple times as he ran away.He nearly died as one stab would collpsed his lung.His 2 friends who were being driven around in a police car to see if they could spot the animals,when they thought they saw one of them.The police ran towards him and he ran away.Eventually he was arrested,and after it was established he wasn't one of the attackers he was asked 'Why did you run' He answered 'Becuase you chased me'.

There might be several reasons someone would run in the circumstances the man who was shot did,including something like he was he an illegal immigrant.

 

[diberry]

If the man who was shot dead by police had indeed been a suicide bomber the police would have been considered heroes for their quick response. They must have had good reason to do what they did in a split-second decision in an incredibly tense situation in London at the moment. I do not uphold the death penalty under any circumstances but I do feel they acted in order to save lives by sacrificing one. No comfort to the man's family I know.

 

[Miffy2003]

As Ken Livingstone said earlier today, the innocent Brazilian man who was killed at Stockwell was yet another victim of the bombers that have been tragetiing London in the last couple of weeks.

Yep, I agree with this. Though it must be said that this is an absolute tragedy for this poor man and his family

I am also not very happy that this man was shot at all but I fear in the current climate I can understand why the police took the action they did. Their responsibility was to prevent a further disaster on a large scale.


Kazzie - what a terrible experience! I do hope he has recovered now.

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

Yep, I agree with this. Though it must be said that this is an absolute targedy for this poor man and his family

Yes, it certainly is. There will be a full independent inquiry and I hope that whatever comes out of it will reassure the general public that this wasn't a summary execution, but a tragic mistake.

I also think that if the policeman who fired the shots acted in good faith and was following set procedures it will be a terrible experience for him as well. A good friend of mine used to be a firearms officer for the Met Police; I think this situation is probably his worst nightmare.

Regards

Rob

 

[Miffy2003]

Agreed, Rob.

 

[kazzie]

Miffy-thanks for asking.He is fine now.Although it meant he wasn't able to come on holiday with us when we stayed in a villa in Spain,as he wasn't allowed to fly for 6 weeks,he lost the money on his flights.He was very upset as he said they've not only done what they'd done to him,but also stolen his holiday from him.Apparantly when the ambulance came all he was concerned about was would be able to fly in 2 weeks time!

Joe is an art student and was visiting a friend in the East End at the time.The scum who did it were never caught.

On the Original post.The man that was shot was Argentinian,my Dad is Italian and swarthy skinned,do even dark looking meditareans have to be subject to more suspicion now?

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

On the Original post.The man that was shot was Argentinian,my Dad is Italian and swarthy skinned,do even dark looking meditareans have to be subject to more suspicion now?

I don't think he was shot just because of his appearance and/or his behaviour. It seems that the house he was in, in the Tulse Hill area of London, was under surveillance by the anti-terror squad following intelligence gained from the failed bombs on Thursday. Tragically that intelligence looks like it was not correct.

The Met Police have confirmed that they have arrested a third man in connection with Thursday's failed bombings (perhaps one of the bombers?). He was arested in the Tulse Hill area of London.

Regards

Rob

 

[Miffy2003]

Kazzie - I am so pleased he is okay now

 

[Kilted_Yank]

I'm sorry that the officers had to shoot that guy, but from everything I see, it is a clean shoot.

There is a lesson in all of this:

DON'T RUN FROM THE POLICE!

Good on 'em, I say.

 

[jen_uk]

What really concerns me is that the police in interviews are saying its better to be safe than sorry which is ok for trained and informed police to think that but its not for the general public. There have already been some vigilante attacks and on the local news here over the weekend there was a story about local muslims who are now being threatened by ignorant people who think all muslims must be terrorists. My husband is muslim and whilst he doesnt wear any traditional dress he does still look like a young male muslim like the terrorists from 7/7 did, what happens when someone thinks he is walking suspiciously and therefore its ok to attack him in case he is a terrorist?

 

[kazzie]

If you read my post from earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,so the poor bugger panicked and was killed,dare I say murderded for panicking.I also didn't realise that the officers who shouted at him were in plain clothes.

He was wearing a puffa jacket not a big coat.Who hasn't been to hotter countries and been wearing shorts and a vest top while the locals look bemusedly on in their jeans and jackets.So from his much hotter climate he deemed it neccessary to wear a jacket on a mild day,hardly a crime to die for.


I said I was uncomfortable about a shoot to kill policy,I'm now firmly against it.It is being touted as he is another victim of the terrorists-what a cop out

In countries with the death penalty-the US for example-they know for a fact they sometimes execute innocent people,I've read the statistics that they admit are killed in error.BUT they say these innocent deaths are still worth it for all the guilty people they do execute.I'm not happy for even one innocent person to be killed either that way,or as in this subject,in a shoot to kill policy where they know for a fact innocent people WILL be killed and in fact the first person they have killed was innocent.Not avery good coup for this policy.

If he was your brother or father or friend you wouldn't be quite so keen on a shooot to kill policy-but that's OK he was only Brazilian not British so it doesn't count

Kilted Yank how can you call this a 'clean kill' the man's brains are all over the tube carriage and I would imagine the bystanders who witnessed this killing will be damaged by it for some time.

 

[alisonbestford]

If you read my post from earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,so the poor bugger panicked and was killed,dare I say murderded for panicking.I also didn't realise that the officers who shouted at him were in plain clothes.

He was wearing a puffa jacket not a big coat.Who hasn't been to hotter countries and been wearing shorts and a vest top while the locals look bemusedly on in their jeans and jackets.So from his much hotter climate he deemed it neccessary to wear a jacket on a mild day,hardly a crime to die for.


I said I was uncomfortable about a shoot to kill policy,I'm now firmly against it.It is being touted as he is another victim of the terrorists-what a cop out

In countries with the death penalty-the US for example-they know for a fact they sometimes execute innocent people,I've read the statistics that they admit are killed in error.BUT they say these innocent deaths are still worth it for all the guilty people they do execute.I'm not happy for even one innocent person to be killed either that way,or as in this subject,in a shoot to kill policy where they know for a fact innocent people WILL be killed and in fact the first person they have killed was innocent.Not avery good coup for this policy.

If he was your brother or father or friend you wouldn't be quite so keen on a shooot to kill policy-but that's OK he was only Brazilian not British so it doesn't count

Kilted Yank how can you call this a 'clean kill' the man's brains are all over the tube carriage and I would imagine the bystanders who witnessed this killing will be damaged by it for some time.

I have to agree Kazzie

 

[Frances999]

If you read my post from earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,so the poor bugger panicked and was killed,dare I say murderded for panicking.I also didn't realise that the officers who shouted at him were in plain clothes.

He was wearing a puffa jacket not a big coat.Who hasn't been to hotter countries and been wearing shorts and a vest top while the locals look bemusedly on in their jeans and jackets.So from his much hotter climate he deemed it neccessary to wear a jacket on a mild day,hardly a crime to die for.


I said I was uncomfortable about a shoot to kill policy,I'm now firmly against it.It is being touted as he is another victim of the terrorists-what a cop out

In countries with the death penalty-the US for example-they know for a fact they sometimes execute innocent people,I've read the statistics that they admit are killed in error.BUT they say these innocent deaths are still worth it for all the guilty people they do execute.I'm not happy for even one innocent person to be killed either that way,or as in this subject,in a shoot to kill policy where they know for a fact innocent people WILL be killed and in fact the first person they have killed was innocent.Not avery good coup for this policy.

If he was your brother or father or friend you wouldn't be quite so keen on a shooot to kill policy-but that's OK he was only Brazilian not British so it doesn't count

Kilted Yank how can you call this a 'clean kill' the man's brains are all over the tube carriage and I would imagine the bystanders who witnessed this killing will be damaged by it for some time.

I do not wish to start a debate, but what if he was a terrorist? The policeman in question faced a split-second decision. The man he shot could have have detonated a bomb and killed hundreds. He ran, and looked suspicious. He should be aware of the current political climate in London.

Your post is only okay with the benefit of hindsight. Aat the time IMHO it was the right thing to do.

 

[diberry]

I strongly disagree with kazzie's comments and think it's way out of line.

If he was your brother or father or friend you wouldn't be quite so keen on a shoot to kill policy-but that's OK he was only Brazilian not British so it doesn't count

I don't think sarcasm is very fitting here - what if he had been a terrorist and the policeman had prevented him from killing your brother or father or friend who was on the tube train ??????????????????

 

[Kilted_Yank]

Kilted Yank how can you call this a 'clean kill' the man's brains are all over the tube carriage...

Kazzie,

I wasn't attempting to sound flip or cavalier about that man's death. Perhaps my American police vernacular made it sound like I was. I meant "clean" in terms of the fact that the officers, from the information that I have, were justified in using deadly force.

I have been a police officer for quite a few years, and have spent the last (nearly) nine years as a tactical firearms instructor. I spend my time not only teaching officers and agents HOW to shoot, but WHEN to shoot.

I can only speak for our laws and our court system, of course, but in the broad world of what we call "probable cause", the officer seem to have been totally justified in firing.

That the person that was killed wasn't guilty of what the officers thought he was, unfortunately doesn't enter into it. They can only go by what they know or reasonably believe to be the case.

Any British Coppers want to join in on this?


Bill

 

[jen_uk]

If you read my post from earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,so the poor bugger panicked and was killed,dare I say murderded for panicking.I also didn't realise that the officers who shouted at him were in plain clothes.

He was wearing a puffa jacket not a big coat.Who hasn't been to hotter countries and been wearing shorts and a vest top while the locals look bemusedly on in their jeans and jackets.So from his much hotter climate he deemed it neccessary to wear a jacket on a mild day,hardly a crime to die for.


I said I was uncomfortable about a shoot to kill policy,I'm now firmly against it.It is being touted as he is another victim of the terrorists-what a cop out

In countries with the death penalty-the US for example-they know for a fact they sometimes execute innocent people,I've read the statistics that they admit are killed in error.BUT they say these innocent deaths are still worth it for all the guilty people they do execute.I'm not happy for even one innocent person to be killed either that way,or as in this subject,in a shoot to kill policy where they know for a fact innocent people WILL be killed and in fact the first person they have killed was innocent.Not avery good coup for this policy.

If he was your brother or father or friend you wouldn't be quite so keen on a shooot to kill policy-but that's OK he was only Brazilian not British so it doesn't count

Kilted Yank how can you call this a 'clean kill' the man's brains are all over the tube carriage and I would imagine the bystanders who witnessed this killing will be damaged by it for some time.

I completely agree

 

[rob@rar.org.uk]

If you read my post from earlier I suggested maybe he ran because he was an illagal immigrant or had commited a minor crime.It has just been announced his visa had expired,so the poor bugger panicked and was killed,dare I say murderded for panicking.

Perhaps it would be better to wait for the independent inquiry to report before coming to such strongly worded opinions? You missed out, for example, that he was in a building that was under police surveillance because of information gathered from the previous day's failed attempt to murder many innocent people.

As far as I'm concerned the police have a duty and a responsibility to take whatever steps are necessary to protect the lives of innocent people who travel around London. This may involve taking difficult, split-second decisions which are literally life or death. I know how angry I would be if one of my loved ones was killed because the police had failed to stop a suicide bomber when they had the opportunity to because of a reluctance to act. Kazzie, how would you feel in those circumstances?

Regards

Rob