Making the Caste System work within the Disney philosophy – A “What If” game

[DVC-Landbaron]

In the ‘Dear Eisner’ thread an interesting idea popped up. It centered on the way to make the Moderate and Economy versions of resorts fit within the Disney philosophy. Or at the very least, less overt in the distinction of class, income, socioeconomic, etc.

In other words how to blend them into the overall picture, without having to resort to primary colors and giant icon decorations as opposed to theme and quality and dramatic reductions in service, style and amenities.

The position was put forth that these accommodations could be melded into the ‘standard’ Resorts (i.e. Deluxe) with little distinction and relatively few cutbacks. A radically different pricing structure and philosophy would also be necessary. But, this would afford the guest a quality Disney ‘EXPERIENCE” and at the same time be less expensive overall.

So it goes out to the group at large. Anyone who likes these “What If” games (which I am admittedly no good at).

Can it be done? If so, how. If not, why not.

 

[hopemax]

Nothing much to add, except that the resort meld reminded me of a cruise ship. The price of a particular cabin can vary dramatically depending on whether it's an inside or outside, has a veranda, etc. But all passengers share the same pools, restaurants, entertainment options, etc.

At WDW the difference is the ship is "permanetly docked", but some people will still go on shore excursions (to the parks and other WDW activities) and some will stay on the ship (partake in the resort amenities).

 

[KNWVIKING]

At least not to the point of maintaining the current price structure. Just using round numbers, assume $300.00 per nite for Poly, $100.00 for the new Economy.

What fixed expenses require Poly to charge that much ? Lavish landscaping and lighting. A beautifully themed pool.Larger rooms which require great air conditioning expenses.Higher property taxes. Large staff. Greater retail space. Top of the line restaurants with menu pricing to match. Unique architecture with contrasting roof lines and angles, structures with a stunning curb appeal require greater up-keep.More luxurious bedding, higher grade of furniture, better TV's. These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many others.

Now where do you cut back to keep the price at $100.00 but still maintain that Poly experience ? Probably the easiest thing to do is reduce room size and basically fit 1000 units into an area Poly would have 800. That could generate more cash, but also requires additional housekeeping. Room furnishing expenses can be reduced somewhat, but there is a fine line between "nicely done" and Motel 6. The up front construction costs would need to be reduced, which would mean less dramatic structures. Problem though is that without the longhouses, is Poly really Poly. I believe a compromie is possible between Poly and AS/PC that wouldn't raise the cost per square foot too high. Biggest expense and most important to the Poly experience is manpower. There's no substitute for manpower. You need something,you want it now, someBODY has to be availible to fetch it. You don't want to wait in long check-in lines, but those extra CM's are an expense. A great hotel or resort has to have nearly excessive waitstaff. $300.00 per nite is easily forgiven if the service is great. You can't run a Poly at AS staffing levels. Poly has great restaurants with prices that reflect the quality. Can you have a great new Economy resort without high quality restaurants, and if not, will the economy minded guests be willing to pay the premium menu prices.

So my answer is No, it can't be done. Can something be done better then AS, yes, at least the physical appearance of the buildings. But I believe too many corners would need to be cut for a new Economy Resort to even remotely ressemble the Poly.

 

[SnackyStacky]

I'd have to imagine that it's really not a big deal to merge a moderate/economy experience into a current deluxe property.

Quite a few of your arguments, Viking, are falling flat. It's true that you'd need more labor, but in turn, you're getting rid of the moderate and economy level hotels. (At least I thought that's the way we were playing)

I contend that a whole new deluxe experience would need to be created and it would need to be similar to the Polynesian.

GAH! I'm in a public computing lab, and need to wrap up cause they're closing. I'll finish painting my scenario when I get home.

 

[Mr D]

The whole scenario of finding an affordable resort room for several weeks stay with the luxury I wanted just made me look elsewhere outside the parks, for $100 a night I have a whole house, heated pool, AC, PC with DSL, alarm system.

Really several years ago I tried sorting out all the differences, even booked a room at Disney Institute. It was way too confusing. so I cancelled it and looked outside the parks. Been renting a home now every time i visit orlando, though currently I'm about to buy one here.

 

[Planogirl]

There's the possibility that you'd only be consolidating the castes rather than getting rid of them. You might end up with the "haves" close to everything enjoying the big rooms and the nicer buildings while the "have-nots" would be on the other side of the tracks so to speak.

I'm reminded of a "haunted" plantation in Louisiana that's been turned into a bed and breakfast. Rooms include both suites and regular rooms within the old house itself and some less expensive cottages set a slight distance from the house. We stayed in one of those cottages and I was a bit jealous of those that stayed in the house. They not only had the ghosts but also the nicer rooms complete with antiques. So you see, at least in this case, the supposed caste system was still in place even though everyone was at the same "resort".

 

[Cricket2]

I'm assuming maintenance costs are more of a concern than upfront investment costs.

Some things could be added/changed that would bring them closer to a "Poly" quality without quite adding "Buttling" services.

1) Fully automated multi-lingual check-in where you get to pick your room off a virtual map either at the hotel or airport.

2) Consolidate the multi themed resorts into one with shared better amenities such as 1 monster themed pool that is over the top and decent restaurants that pay for themselves. A single check in hub and internal automated transportation to the hub like covered airport sidewalks. The money that this costs can be made up with fewer CM's like lifeguards and check-in hosts.

3) Make the hotel itself the destination rather than a pit stop by including the deluxe activities such as bike trails and kids clubs.

4) Valet parking

5) Get the parking lots away from the rooms further and add more ponds and stuff!!!!!

6) AS sports? Sports bar. AS Movies? Theatre. AS Music? Piano bar. All of these things on site compete with current locations but there is more than one steak house, so why not more than one sports bar?

7) Include specific resort perks for specific resorts. e.g. AS resorts along with say Coronado get something that no other resort can get while Poly and Pop get something equal but different. Point being, include the lower priced rooms/resorts in with a deluxe resort to lessen the caste group feel.

Most of this stuff can pay for itself.

This will not remove the "value" feel overall, but it will lessen the gap somewhat I think.

JC

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Quite a few of your arguments, Viking, are falling flat. It's true that you'd need more labor, but in turn, you're getting rid of the moderate and economy level hotels. (At least I thought that's the way we were playing)"***

I don't see what closing the existing mods & ecos have to do with the staffing levels at the New Economy resort. In order to maintain the Poly experience you need staffing levels at the new resort that are closer to Poly's, not the current mod and ecos. If the current AS/PC need - we can debate need later- to charge $100 now to operate, how can a new Eco resort charge the same and pay for additional staff.

I'm also curious to know where my other arguements are falling flat. Are you saying that the new resort would be built to the same specs as Poly,including landscaping & pool area, at a price cheap enough to allow the low rate, and properly maintain it ?

 

[airlarry!]

The Myrtles...

 

[KNWVIKING]

... I like a lot of your ideas, but isn't that getting away from the Disney magic so to speak - too much automation, not enough CM interaction. And one monster pool for a resort that be reading your discription would be HUGE... sounds more chaotic rather then deluxe.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
... I like a lot of your ideas, but isn't that getting away from the Disney magic so to speak - too much automation, not enough CM interaction.

I don't think so, so I guess it comes down to how it's done and what you define as "magic". To me, sometimes fewer CM's can be better than a zoo of them. I'm not saying to remove the check-in CM's, just have them there as the backup or as "helpers" like at the fast pass kiosks rather than the only method of checking in.

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
And one monster pool for a resort that be reading your discription would be HUGE... sounds more chaotic rather then deluxe.

Not if they do a bigger better SAB or small scale water park or whatever. It could even be to the point where they have to close it down to pool hoppers from the deluxes. It's all how the cards are played.

JC

 

[KNWVIKING]

**"Not if they do a bigger better SAB or small scale water park or whatever. "**

That sounds expensive to build and to maintain. Also, compare the number of lifeguards on duty at SAB as opposed to all pools combined at AS. Lifeguards aren't cheap.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
**"Not if they do a bigger better SAB or small scale water park or whatever. "**

That sounds expensive to build and to maintain. Also, compare the number of lifeguards on duty at SAB as opposed to all pools combined at AS. Lifeguards aren't cheap.

Any custom pool is expensive to build. It's all about surface area. A small lazy river will always be more expensive than a big pond size pool because it's harder to build. I don't know how lifeguard regulations are figured, but I'm guessing it's a line of sight thing. Again, it's how you play the design against the cost. Maintenence of one psycho pool may or may not be less than 3 slightly mentaly disturbed pools. I'm not a pool guy nor do I play one on tv. It is obvious that there has to be some sort of trade off to make it come out in the end. I'm just pointing out that there are things that can be done. Call in an actuary in to crunch the numbers on the lifeguard set up. Until things like that happen, we are all really just flapping our jaws like old guys on a front porch.

Now where is my lemonade!

JC

 

[Cricket2]

Sort of an on/off topic question:

Are the bus stops at the parks set up in the caste system with their distances away from the gate? I usualy only pay attention to the one I'm looking for, but never take the time to look to see who has the least distance to walk/ furthest to walk at each park.

Anyone ever paid attention to them enough to figure this out?

JC

 

[Lewisc]

Really not sure what the question is. Are you suggesting adding a "budget" wing to the POLY? I suspect the extra number of guests and whatever is taken out to find room for the new wing will make the entire resort much less deluxe. Sticking a cinder box budget hotel in the same complex as a deluxe would take away from the entire resort (I wouldn't stay there)

Disney is adding some "deluxe" touches to moderates. Better themed pools (CSR) and table service restaurants.

Disney also added deluxe resorts with smaller rooms and pricing between deluxe and moderate (WL and AKL).

Disney has also added DVC sections to deluxe resorts.

Finally Disney offers Deluxe hotels at moderate prices (code discounts).

 

[KNWVIKING]

Not adding on to anything.

Basically we're building from the ground up a new type resort. It will be an economy price resort but will try to offer deluxe amenities. Poly is the standard. AS/PC are what we're trying to improve upon.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by Lewisc
Are you suggesting adding a "budget" wing to the POLY?

That would start up the "Star-Bellied Sneech" machine for sure. They charge Poly prices because people will pay them. Add on the "star" (value rooms) and poof, there go the sneeches off to another resort to have the "star" removed (no value riff-raff about) which just emphasizes the current system.

A new resort style is needed for sure built from scratch.

JC

 

[DancingBear]

The only way you get people to pay significantly different prices is to offer significantly different products to the different classes.

Since the food, entertainment and recreational offerings are the same for all on a Disney Cruise ship, the price points are determined by the differences in size, locations and views (from inside cabin to porthole window to various verandahs). I suppose we can duplicate this in our hypothetical new resort by putting the Value guests in smaller rooms in the equivalent of the bowels of the ship. Of course, the Value buildings inherently couldn't have the same level of architectural distinction.

Picking a random June Disney cruise, and eliminating the lowest and highest stateroom classes, cabin distinctions yield a price difference of about 22% between a Category 10 Deluxe Inside cabin and a Category 5 Deluxe Verandah cabin (based on four per cabin).

That's not enough distinction for our new resort--we need to charge 200% more for our Deluxe class rooms than our Value class rooms. So, we need to create other distinctions. What would those be? Can we really generate enough variety of experience to justify the price structure?

And if we do, is it really an improvement in the current Caste System? Would Value guests have a better experience in our resort than they do at AS/PC?

 

[Lewisc]

I'm not sure the people who are trying to stay at a value property (for price) are interested in room service and expensive restaurants. I think Disney has done a pretty good job matching price point and amenities.

I think there is a demand for a lower end, rental only DVC type of property. Make some of the value resorts 2 room units with a mini kitchen. Many people want to cook in the rooms. Give people an alternative to crock pots, cooking soup in coffee pots cooler refrigerators etc.

How about renovating River Country (keep it low key) and use it as a free or low cost pool alternative to the resort pools. Wouldn't be as convienant as SAB and POLY pool but would give a good experience to value customers.

 

[Lewisc]

AKL really does what you're talking about. Standard rooms, pool view rooms, savanah and finally concierage. Your price points and view differences are similar to a cruise ship.

Originally posted by DancingBear
The only way you get people to pay significantly different prices is to offer significantly different products to the different classes.

Since the food, entertainment and recreational offerings are the same for all on a Disney Cruise ship, the price points are determined by the differences in size, locations and views (from inside cabin to porthole window to various verandahs). I suppose we can duplicate this in our hypothetical new resort by putting the Value guests in smaller rooms in the equivalent of the bowels of the ship. Of course, the Value buildings inherently couldn't have the same level of architectural distinction.

Picking a random June Disney cruise, and eliminating the lowest and highest stateroom classes, cabin distinctions yield a price difference of about 22% between a Category 10 Deluxe Inside cabin and a Category 5 Deluxe Verandah cabin (based on four per cabin).

That's not enough distinction for our new resort--we need to charge 200% more for our Deluxe class rooms than our Value class rooms. So, we need to create other distinctions. What would those be? Can we really generate enough variety of experience to justify the price structure?

And if we do, is it really an improvement in the current Caste System? Would Value guests have a better experience in our resort than they do at AS/PC?