Major Policy Change in DVC/DCL Trade Policy UPDATE ON POST #193

[TLSnell1981]

Not sure where this comes into play with all of the various theories-but I have come across 11C's on both the Dream and Alaska cruises that I have booked for next year-these lower cabins were not available a few weeks ago. DCL is not completely full if they are offering these lower categories again.

It doesn't matter if the boat is empty or not...just like the airlines. It doesn't determine availability on points.

But what I'm suggesting is that there is not only a per-cruise limit but also a cumulative annual limit for all cruises.

Just to throw out a number, let's say that DVC members are allowed to have 5% of all cabins over an entire year.

Rather than releasing 5% of all dates / cabin classes, they may make a higher percentage available on each sailing. That gives members greatest flexibility. On one cruise with particularly high demand perhaps 8% of all cabins will go to members while another sailing may have only 2% of cabins taken by members.

But the annual limit would still apply.

It's like having two caps--a cap on the number of rooms available for each cruise and a cap for the year. They may not have met the cap for the cruise you were looking at but if they met the annual cap, all bookings would end.

I asked this on the DCL board a few days ago. I suspect, you are probably correct. There is total sum of points allowed for use when booking a cruise. There has been increased interest due to the new ship and destinations. So, this theory makes sense. IMO

 

[Crissup]

I would not be disrespectful or inflammatory, but I certainly would not sit there and be a "good little member" if a DVC timeshare sales rep was lying or telling half-truths.

I do definitely agree with you there. In fact, I did that once. Stood up in the middle of the presentation, while seated in the front row, to debate a statement the young sales guide had just made about it making no difference where you bought because you could always book the resort you want at 7 months. As we actively debated it in front of the group, I finally pointed out that CarolAnnC had been unable to get into the BWV when she wanted for two years, and finally resorted to buying a BWV resale so she could book at the 11 month window.

Look, I'm not saying I hope everyone sits quietly while listening to a guide tell lies or half truths. I'm simply saying I hope people don't walk into these presentations with the intent of "letting them have it" because of the DCL problem.

 

[ellenmiele]

Just got off phone with member services. Have been reeling over this thread because I had an April 2011 Dream cruise booked with points but I cancelled and dragged my feet with rebooking because couldn't decide on 3 or 4 nights and where to go before or after etc etc etc. And now I could kick myself because I have all these reservation points and can't book another cruise!!!!!!!! CM at MS was as helpful as she could be given the situation and she did offer me the "call list" - although I have to say she didn't exactly jump to tell me about it right away. Only after I started asking other questions about what options I had for my reservation points - I got the feeling that if I had just said "ok thank you" and hung up, I wouldn't have been told about - but I could be wrong. Before putting me on the call list she checked the cash availability on the cruise I was looking at and once she found that there was cash booking availability she them went thru the processs of explaining the call list and put me on it. So now I wait.....

 

[tjkraz]

Look, I'm not saying I hope everyone sits quietly while listening to a guide tell lies or half truths. I'm simply saying I hope people don't walk into these presentations with the intent of "letting them have it" because of the DCL problem.

Well-said.

There's nothing wrong with correcting errors or omissions in the sales spiel, but I certainly hope folks aren't going into their cruises or the Member cruise determined to get their proverbial pound of flesh.

 

[ellenmiele]

And one more thing ---
I do realize that with our points there is never a guarantee of availability for anything. However, I cannot believe that this is an inventory availability issue. Do they mean to tell us that every single sail date for every single DCL ship from now thru Sept 2011 has had all their allotted DVC staterooms taken? IMO, this is a policy change and as such I think we all deserved to have been given some advance warning.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Do they mean to tell us that every single sail date for every single DCL ship from now thru Sept 2011 has had all their allotted DVC staterooms taken?

Do we know there are allotted DVC staterooms available for each sail date? Or, is it this?

Originally Posted by tjkraz
But what I'm suggesting is that there is not only a per-cruise limit but also a cumulative annual limit for all cruises.

Just to throw out a number, let's say that DVC members are allowed to have 5% of all cabins over an entire year.

Rather than releasing 5% of all dates / cabin classes, they may make a higher percentage available on each sailing. That gives members greatest flexibility. On one cruise with particularly high demand perhaps 8% of all cabins will go to members while another sailing may have only 2% of cabins taken by members.

But the annual limit would still apply.

It's like having two caps--a cap on the number of rooms available for each cruise and a cap for the year. They may not have met the cap for the cruise you were looking at but if they met the annual cap, all bookings would end.

 

[JimMIA]

Well-said.

There's nothing wrong with correcting errors or omissions in the sales spiel, but I certainly hope folks aren't going into their cruises or the Member cruise determined to get their proverbial pound of flesh.

I think most of us agree on that. Disruptive behavior tells much more about the speaker than it does about the problem...especially when none of us actually know what happened! We're all in the dark.

 

[JimMIA]

Do we know there are allotted DVC staterooms available for each sail date? Or, is it this?

We don't know ANYTHING. People are just speculating, trying to make sense of the situation...but we're all guessing.

 

[cruiseletters]

Exactly, we never had wide open access to cruises. I also agree with Brian, DCL was discounting cruises to DVC and now that those sailings have reached a certain level of profitability and cash demand is still there, they have cut DVC off at that price. And they are reduced prices. I was surprised at how cheap my cruise fare was for the "free cruise from DVC" on my documents.

If I was renting points for $9 and all of a sudden I had a buyer that wanted to give me $12, I would rent all future points to the $12 buyer. The $9 buyer may be upset, but that's business.

That only works if you go on the assumption that DCL gives DVC the lowest price tier for members cruising with points. We have been told on a members cruise that DCL negotiates a price not at the beginning tier but midway and if it is a popular destination it goes higher from there. They make money off of point cruisers

 

[Petraman]

Well, dvcnews.com is now reporting this situation. Interstingly, their info is based on people like sharing our recent experiences, the DVC spokespeople won't return their phone calls either.

So, today is Tuesday, did anyone who called into Customer Service get any response yet from them? They said they would respond within "3 business days", but they may not have counted Friday, since most of us probably didn't write in until that evening or later.

 

[Brian Noble]

"there is a cap of 'x' staterooms that we are giving to DVC at reduced rates each year."

Tim, this is the part I'm not sure about. Why must they necessarily be reduced? It's possible that DVC bookings generate better-than-average fares---commission free, no less. There isn't *necessarily* a subsidy from DCL to DVC.

We're going on two years now of wrestling with this economy so the 2011 cruises and resort stays should have certainly taken that into consideration.

I think the surprise isn't the hit on the room rates CRO can get. The surprise is the cruise fares DCL is currently commanding. They took a *big* jump up---the new ship plus new routes have really generated a lot of interest.

 

[Dean]

Stay tuned for the 2012 DCL Point Charts to be off the charts!!

If we keep the option at all, it is not going to be pretty

DVD does not like to lose money and they have proven that time and time again.

This is the appropriate way to balance this issue. I wonder if they didn't screw up the Dream points schedule and are finding too many people trying to cruise on points and have too many points to try to convert to cash.

I'm wondering if anyone has received any "official" answers to their emails, as opposed to anecdotal info from MS -- which, as we know, will change with the next call.

I emailed Member Satisfaction Saturday morning and have not even received the supposedly automatic "Received your email and we'll respond in 3 days" reply yet.

Anybody heard back?

I'm starting to believe that there has been no policy change -- that either all the individual cruises just filled up or some kind of threshhold like Tim mentioned was reached. Everything so far points much more to an availability issue (especially the "call list") than a policy change.

Whatever the reason, DVC needs to get off the seat and let members know officially.

As I tried to convey on several of these type issues the last couple of years, complaining to DVC including the Member Satisfaction Team, really means nothing. While they will collect overall complaints and pass them along, they are not in a position to truly know the absolute reasoning behind the decisions and are not at liberty to give you the rest of the story even if they know it. It's interesting that after some 30 pages, I don't recall a single person that has posted they talked to upper management on this issue. Complaining to MS even at the level quote, can be akin to complaining to the lowest level assistant manager at a restaurant when there are major problems.

We eat out a lot since it's just the 2 of us and we're out and about so much, IF i have a significant problem at a restaurant (few over the years but they have happened), I'm talking to the GM, regional manager, owner as appropriate for the circumstance. They generally know what's going on (or are very happy to find out if it's something they aren't aware of), are generally honest but appropriate and have power to fix problems. Recently I had a problem with a restaurant on 2 separate occasions (same problem), I talked to the AM on duty who was no help and then asked for the contact for the owner, which he refused. I said no problem, I'd just go to corporate (which I did) but it was interesting how he was falling all over himself telling me I didn't have to do that but never made an effort to actually correct the real problem. The regional manager called me back and we had a very nice conversation. He referred my info to the owner in town, who also called and we had a very nice conversation. They listened to my concerns and handled them appropriately. They offered compensation which I refused, that wasn't my intent or expectation. More than anything else I was listening to HOW they handled the situation to decide whether we'd go back to the restaurant (small chain, 3 in town).

And one more thing ---
I do realize that with our points there is never a guarantee of availability for anything. However, I cannot believe that this is an inventory availability issue. Do they mean to tell us that every single sail date for every single DCL ship from now thru Sept 2011 has had all their allotted DVC staterooms taken? IMO, this is a policy change and as such I think we all deserved to have been given some advance warning.

Other than the fact that some have been stuck, does it really matter. DVD clearly reserves the right to limit, change or eliminate the program. I know in the past members of this board have blown me off when I made such a statement that major changes could happen.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Well, dvcnews.com is now reporting this situation. Interstingly, their info is based on people like sharing our recent experiences, the DVC spokespeople won't return their phone calls either......

dvcnews.com is tjkraz

 

[LIFERBABE]

That only works if you go on the assumption that DCL gives DVC the lowest price tier for members cruising with points. We have been told on a members cruise that DCL negotiates a price not at the beginning tier but midway and if it is a popular destination it goes higher from there. They make money off of point cruisers

Yes, DCL may make money, but DVD is not. I truly think that DVD shut it down not DCL. Someone finally ran the numbers and DVD is being flooded with incoming points from all directions. They are buying back, foreclosing, members not keeping up with dues, and trades.

All these points need to be converted to cash in order for DVD to make money. Who's buying?

Add in all the competition from discounting and renting and our points are looking like pesos.

They have more points than they can handle right now, and the increased DCL trades were adding to it. So they basically applied a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. The next time DVD opens up DCL trading, the 2012 point charts will take all that occurred this year into consideration.

It's not just a 1 way negotiation. The trades have to be beneficial for both parties.

I agree with others that have posted that we the members have contributed to these issues and all DVD owes us is a a villa and some resort amenities.
We cant have our cake and eat it too. The entire system is out of balance.

 

[Sammie]

Yes, DCL may make money, but DVD is not. I truly think that DVD shut it down not DCL. Someone finally ran the numbers and DVD is being flooded with incoming points from all directions. They are buying back, foreclosing, members not keeping up with dues, and trades.

All these points need to be converted to cash in order for DVD to make money. Who's buying?

Add in all the competition from discounting and renting and our points are looking like pesos.

They have more points than they can handle right now, and the increased DCL trades were adding to it. So they basically applied a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. The next time DVD opens up DCL trading, the 2012 point charts will take all that occurred this year into consideration.

It's not just a 1 way negotiation. The trades have to be beneficial for both parties.

I agree with others that have posted that we the members have contributed to these issues and all DVD owes us is a a villa and some resort amenities.
We cant have our cake and eat it too. The entire system is out of balance.

Very accurate analysis of the situation.

 

[TisBit]

The entire system is out of balance.

This is probably a very accurate statement on many fronts. The points reallocation, while many people complained and were upset, was a true sign of imbalance, one that most of the people on these boards were aware of (there were frequent topics of booking on cash for weekends) and the trade outs are also a potential problem.

Truth is, DVC is growing tremendously fast and has grown considerably and never been tested in a "bad" economy. Even the post 9/11 travel decline would not affect DVC like an economic downturn. While members might be able to keep their payments afloat, they might not be able to afford the trip, etc. Or the trade outs have put a pressure on converting points to cash through CRO as speculated here.

Honestly this issue with DCL definitely seems more of an "emergency" fix/problem then just a balance issue.

 

[Zoom]

Just got off phone with member services. Have been reeling over this thread because I had an April 2011 Dream cruise booked with points but I cancelled and dragged my feet with rebooking because couldn't decide on 3 or 4 nights and where to go before or after etc etc etc. And now I could kick myself because I have all these reservation points and can't book another cruise!!!!!!!! CM at MS was as helpful as she could be given the situation and she did offer me the "call list" - although I have to say she didn't exactly jump to tell me about it right away. Only after I started asking other questions about what options I had for my reservation points - I got the feeling that if I had just said "ok thank you" and hung up, I wouldn't have been told about - but I could be wrong. Before putting me on the call list she checked the cash availability on the cruise I was looking at and once she found that there was cash booking availability she them went thru the processs of explaining the call list and put me on it. So now I wait.....

I am in the same situation as you, i booked a dream cruise for June'11 but i canceled since we decided we'll do the MED instead, I booked thru DCL w/cash then planning on converting to points when my next UY comes since i need to borrow points. I called DVC last Sat. after reading this thread, i asked to be put on the 'call list' and i told her that with the points i have i can only be able to use 2 people for points and pay cash on 1 AD, i think she put a note on that and she said if someone calls me then it would be to discuss this further.....I am kinda hoping that they will let me book this since I am also paying cash for 1 AD (close to $2K) so its not like im booking every person with points.

 

[Inkmahm]

But today my Dsis called all excited because my nephew got engaged today and she was all excited because she has a ton of points for next year and wanted to book a cruise for them for their honeymoon sometime next August (they haven't set the actual date). I was so sad since I had to tell her she won't be able to do that for them. She bought DVC points this year and has yet to use them and now she can't go on the April cruise with us or give her son a cruise for a wedding present. I know this is not DVC fault or problem since they didn't promise us they can cruise, but it is still dissappointing. Sorry I know I am venting a lot today.

She CAN give them a cruise. Just book it with cash so that the reseration is flexible. Then rent out the points or transfer them to another DVC member to get the cash. No reason at all to be so disappointed.

 

[JimMIA]

I just received a phone call in response to my email to Member Satisfaction, and had a fairly long talk with them. In my email, I had asked the following three questions:

Is this situation:
1. A change in policy implementing a temporary moritorium of using DVC points to book DCL cruises?
2. A permanent change in policy eliminating the option of booking DCL with DVC points altogether?
3. Or, simply a lack of availability in cruise inventory through September 2011?

Here's what I was told:

BOTTOM LINE: There has been NO POLICY CHANGE.

I was told the issue is purely an availability problem caused by the addition of the new ship and much more varied itineraries than were previously offered. Don't forget that we can book cruises two years in advance, so there has already been a long booking period for 2011 cruises. Apparently a lot of DVC owners have booked points cruises and all the points availability is now gone through September 2011.

I was also told that this is not the first time this has happened. The same thing apparently happened (but only for about a 4-month period) in 2004.

MS is currently accepting DCL cruise bookings for October 2011 and beyond, although availability for late 2011 is limited...which makes sense.

I was also told that MS would try to assist members who had previously booked points cruises and now have to change dates, etc, like CarolAnn did. It sounded like it would be a case-by-case situation, but he said they would do whatever they were able to do to help members.

I mentioned the situations of people who booked cash cruises and now want to convert those to points. He said MS would try to help those members, but that was a very different and more difficult problem because all of the DVC points inventory is gone. However, he said they would do whatever they could to help.

The gentleman I spoke to was aware of both this thread and CarolAnn's situation/resolution, but he didn't really comment much on it, other than to ask if I would post the information he provided in response to my questions.

 

[Cmbar]

I just received a phone call in response to my email to Member Satisfaction, and had a fairly long talk with them. In my email, I had asked the following three questions:
Here's what I was told:

BOTTOM LINE: There has been NO POLICY CHANGE.

I was told the issue is purely an availability problem caused by the addition of the new ship and much more varied itineraries than were previously offered. Don't forget that we can book cruises two years in advance, so there has already been a long booking period for 2011 cruises. Apparently a lot of DVC owners have booked points cruises and all the points availability is now gone through September 2011.

I was also told that this is not the first time this has happened. The same thing apparently happened (but only for about a 4-month period) in 2004.

MS is currently accepting DCL cruise bookings for October 2011 and beyond, although availability for late 2011 is limited...which makes sense.

I was also told that MS would try to assist members who had previously booked points cruises and now have to change dates, etc, like CarolAnn did. It sounded like it would be a case-by-case situation, but he said they would do whatever they were able to do to help members.

I mentioned the situations of people who booked cash cruises and now want to convert those to points. He said MS would try to help those members, but that was a very different and more difficult problem because all of the DVC points inventory is gone. However, he said they would do whatever they could to help.

The gentleman I spoke to was aware of both this thread and CarolAnn's situation/resolution, but he didn't really comment much on it, other than to ask if I would post the information he provided in response to my questions.

I wonder if they have an answer for us about why that availability suddenly ended on a certain day when they had availability the previous day. I gotta believe this is a bunch of stuff, but Oh well, at least it is not a "policy" change. Thanks for posting Jim!