Low light theatre/stage lens advice

[Snurk71]

DW is doing a bodybuilding competition in 3 weeks and I thought I would seek a little advice from the experts here. The competition will be in a theatre/auditorium - dark audience area, lighted stage. I know this means I need to try to get in as much light as possible (fast shutter, higher ISO). Her last show was my first with a DSLR (XT).

The pictures were a little noisy at 1600 ISO. But I erred on the side of noise vs. too dark of pictures. A few are a little blurred - maybe from being too agressive on the shutter speed (shot in shutter priority and let the camera decide on the aperature).

Here is an example from her last show:

Compression JPEG compression
Model Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT
Orientation top, left side
X Resolution 72 dots per inch
Y Resolution 72 dots per inch
Resolution Unit Inch
Exposure Time 1/60 sec
F-Number F8
Exposure Program Shutter priority
ISO Speed Ratings 1600
Shutter Speed Value 1/32 sec
Aperture Value F8
Exposure Bias Value 0
Metering Mode Partial
Flash No flash fired, compulsory flash mode
Focal Length 77.0 mm
Exposure Mode Auto
White Balance Mode Auto


I currently have two lenses - Sigma 18-125mm 3.5/5.? and Canon 50mm 1.8. So a few questions?

1) I know the 50mm is faster. Will it also be sharper than the Sigma under these conditions?

2) I assume if I go with the faster 50mm I might be able to take the ISO down to 800 (I'd love to get down to 400)?

2) Last contest most pics were a distance of 70-80mm. If I use the 50mm and get away with taking the ISO down to 800, would the cropped quality still be good (cutting out that extra 20-30 mm)?

3) Should I look for another lens - maybe rent/try the 70/200 f4 that another thread is going on about?


DW is only going to do one show this year and take next year off. So I don't get a chance for any do-overs or try again anytime soon.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Anewman]

I will give my opinion without having any real life experience in shooting body building competitions.

I currently have two lenses - Sigma 18-125mm 3.5/5.? and Canon 50mm 1.8. So a few questions?

1) I know the 50mm is faster. Will it also be sharper than the Sigma under these conditions?IMO, the 50mm would yield sharper photos because it would allow faster shutter speeds and/or lower ISOs. When you shoot at higher ISO you do lose some detail and even more if said photos now require noise reduction.

2) I assume if I go with the faster 50mm I might be able to take the ISO down to 800 (I'd love to get down to 400)?Yes the 50mm is faster but how much faster would depend on the focal length that you would be comparing with the Sigma lens(since it has variable aperture).

2) Last contest most pics were a distance of 70-80mm. If I use the 50mm and get away with taking the ISO down to 800, would the cropped quality still be good (cutting out that extra 20-30 mm)?Depending on the print size you should be able to crop an ISO 800 photo and still get decent prints.

3) Should I look for another lens - maybe rent/try the 70/200 f4 that another thread is going on about?I would consider the 85mm F/1.8 or the 100mm f/2.0, both are in the mid $300 range. While the 70-200mm f/4.0 is a great lens, the extra light allowed by these primes can not be beat at any price range and it seems to be at the focal length you are looking for.


DW is only going to do one show this year and take next year off. So I don't get a chance for any do-overs or try again anytime soon.

Thanks for any advice.

Looking at the exif from your posted photo I find it odd that you used F/8.0, most of us would have opened it up all the way to allow a faster shutter speed and/or lower ISO.

 

[Groucho]

By and large, a prime will almost always be sharper than a zoom lens... I'd definitely go with the 50mm. The posted shot is only at 77mm, that's not THAT far away from 50mm.

Like Anewman says, F8 is probably overkill - you're in shutter priority but only looking for 1/60th of a second. I would go with the 50mm and 800 ISO, for an identical shot, that'll give you F5.6 at 1/60th or F4 at 1/125th.

You may also want to shoot in RAW (if you're not already) and adjust the white balance a little - I understand bodybuilders are usually tanned and oiled up, but the photo still looks a tad "yellow" to me, which can be corrected later. Or, experiment with manually changing the white balance settings while actually there. If you're getting yellowy photos, you probably need to set it to "tungsten".

 

[boBQuincy]

The 50 is likely to be much sharper.

There should be no problem getting to ISO 400.

With 8MP you should be able to crop it a good bit and still get a good 8x10.

The 70-200 is good and one of it's finer points is that it is sharp wide open, which most lenses are not. If you are using the 70-80 range that doesn't leave a lot of room to zoom out. Maybe a 24-105 (which has IS and a constant f/4) would be a good choice for this application.

 

[Snurk71]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I thought about the 85mm because I think it would be a pretty good focal length for these competitions. But I only shoot a couple shows a year. So if I get another lens, I'd prefer to get one that I can get some other application use out of too (like Disney, maybe school plays where I need a little more zoom) - that's why I threw out the 70-200 for consideration. I don't think $350 for that length prime (85) is a wise overall lens investment for me (though it could be great once or twice a year), especially when I'm not guaranteed a seating position to where I know 85mm will be a good length. $100 for the 50mm didn't seem too expensive, that's why I picked it up.

The 24-105 is definitely going to be too rich for my blood for purchase. I'm not that good of a photographer, so I wouldn't be able to justify spending that much on a lens. Maybe rent for the weekend of the competition though (under $100). I think that would be a safe focal length range for shooting the shows.

Regarding the pic I posted, I went with shutter priority just to make sure I would get the lens speed to avoid blurred movement, checked the histogram to make sure I was getting okay exposure, and let the camera pick the aperature. I thought about going full manual and opening up the aperature wider to see if I could take the ISO down to 800, but I was afraid I'd get the wrong focal point with a shallower DOF and the people would end up blurred. If I get brave this year, I'll go full manual and set both the shutter and aperature.

I will shoot in raw+JPG, because I don't know jack about setting the WB correctly. So if the lighting is off, I'll correct for it in PSE.

So it sounds like the Sigma is out against the 50mm, unless I end up with a bad seat too far back and need to zoom in to 100-125mm. But even then maybe I'd still be better off with the 50mm cropped than the Sigma focused in tight?

Still need to think about a purchase of the 70-200 or renting the 24-105 against the 50mm.

 

[Anewman]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I thought about the 85mm because I think it would be a pretty good focal length for these competitions. But I only shoot a couple shows a year. So if I get another lens, I'd prefer to get one that I can get some other application use out of too (like Disney, maybe school plays where I need a little more zoom) - that's why I threw out the 70-200 for consideration. I don't think $350 for that length prime (85) is a wise overall lens investment for me (though it could be great once or twice a year), especially when I'm not guaranteed a seating position to where I know 85mm will be a good length. $100 for the 50mm didn't seem too expensive, that's why I picked it up.

Agreed on all points. But lets not forget that the 85mm can also be a great portrait lens. And if you are comfortable with EBAY, I often see it selling for more used than one can buy brand new from Buydig(dont understand why).

So you can use it once, then sell it if you find you will never use it again and consider any loss(if any) as rent.

Anyways good luck to your DW, hope she has a great show.

 

[handicap18]

You did pretty good with the posted photo. Yes the 50 f1.8 will be sharper, however you still did fairly well with the Sigma. Hard to tell if the focus was off slightly or the lens is soft. The focus looks sharper on the competitor on the left side of the pic. So just be sure that your focus point is in the right spot. I'd focus on the eyes, focus lock, recompose then take the shot. Might add a second or 2, but you may end up with some sharper images on the specific subject you want.

With the settings at 1600, 1/60th and f/8 you can go into manual and set your shutter to 1/60th, aperture to f/5.6 and lower the ISO to 800.

If you can, try out both lenses during the next competition. Try out each lens when the competitors come out for their solo's. See what works better for you, then when DW comes up go with what you think worked better. I assuming that they do solo's then come out together for the poss off.

 

[Snurk71]

Thanks for the advice/tips so far. I have a few more.

Sometimes I'm not very smart. I forgot I took some pictures at a friend's competition earlier this summer, and used the 50mm instead of the Sigma (we've been so focused on DW's contest that I completely forgot about this). And looking back I do see where I took the ISO down to 400 with a 1/32 shutter and let the camera decide the aperature (it picked 3.5).

Here is a "group" picture...

And here is cropped picture of a single competitor...

Turns out I remember being pretty happy with the 50mm - even the crop still looks pretty good to me. I might have been a little agressive with the shutter speed looking back at some shots. But overall, I think they're okay.


So now for my next set of questions.

First, a little more background about bodybuilding and pictures.

If you know bodybuilding, you diet for 3-5 months for what turns out to a few minutes on stage with no second chances for pictures. You hit a pose, and then move on to the next pose. If you got a bad pic of that pose, you might be out of luck because that might be the only call for that pose. So the photog had better have his game on from the beginning and not be testing/fiddling with stuff along the way (you can make small changes, but changing lenses in the middle of a group would miss 3-4 poses). That's why I'm being so anal about this. It's not like I can go back to MK tomorrow to take another shot of DD on Dumbo. There is no tomorrow on stage - it's going to 2 years for DW.

This part might be for handicap, but I'm probably more interested in the prejuding pics than the evening routines - that's where you can make the comparisons to the other competitors in the mandatories. That means I might not have a chance to "test" out much (changing lenses, shutter, aperature), since prejudging is first and the women are up first at this show.

For prejudging pics, there will likely be 10+ competitors standing in a line. My plan is take a pic of the first 3-4 starting at the left end, take the next 3-4, and so on until I have the entire lineup. I've found that the crop is pretty poor when I shoot wide enough to get the entire lineup in one pic because I have to crop down so far. So I switched to this method. That's why the best distance is likely between 50-100mm for this (50mm for 3-4 competitors, closer to 100mm for an individual pic during the evening routine).


1) Unfortunately I didn't have my XT when DW competed at this same event last year, so I'm not 100% of the mm distance I'll be shooting from. It should be pretty similar to the first pic I posted - somewhere between 50-100mm. So I think either lens (50 or 85) will capture the distance I want, and I think the crop from either will still be good. So the question is whether to stick with the 50mm or try the 85mm - I've been reading some very good reviews about the 85mm. Is the 85mm a better lens than the 50mm?

I don't want to sound like a snob, but $350 really isn't an issue. It's more an issue of me being a stingy tightwad and not wanting to waste money. I guess I could always apply Anewman's thought to selling it if I don't like/need it and consider the loss (if any) a rental/tryout fee. I think I just need the push to buy it.


2) Regarding focus, I don't think I'm very skilled in the focus department. I'm pretty much been an AF guy, and I mean total AF. I can't seem to get the hang of selecting one of the AF points - it's like I can't see which point is selected (I wonder if it has anything to do with being color blind). So any tips on how to make sure I'm getting the right focus point if I can't figure out how to select the focus point?

Thanks again.

 

[handicap18]

I knew there was a certain direction the contests went with pose off's vs group stuff and you answered that so I understand your wanting to get things correct/organized sooner rather than later. Makes sence.

What I know about the 85mm lens can be said for both the Nikon and Canon version. They are very highly regarded in the photography world. Are they better than the 50mm f/1.8's? That depends on the person. Everyone has their opinion. I actually haven't used an 85mm yet, but it is on my list of lenses for future consideration. I have a Tamron 90mm f/2.8. Here is a shot I took at a concert last week. I was about 80 feet away from the stage. ISO 1600, f/3, 1/200th with a -1 exposure compensation (though I could have done well without out the ec).

These guys were moving around a bit and I think I still did ok. You probably have a bit better lighting with your subject matter and also have the subjects actually posing with much smaller movements.

You should be able to look at last years photos you took with your other camera and see at what focal length they were taken with and it will also give the equilivent in 35mm terms. Compare that to what you get with the XT and have an idea of how far you were. Of course if you didn't use a digital camera then that idea is sunk.

An idea for the focus points, maybe have someone else look through the view finder and have them make sure just the certer point is highlighted. Then leave it there and use your auto focus lock button when you get the spot you want focused then recompose. It might take some practice to get used to doing it that way, but once you have it down it wont add any significant time to the picture taking. I believe Canon uses red dots to show which focus point is being used. Unfortunately the XT/XTi doesn't have the extra lcd screen to show the focus points and which one is being used in addition to showing it.

For the 85mm, check out this site. I put the direct link to Pixel Peepers Canon 85mm f/1.8 page. Close to 700 pictures to give you an idea of how good this lens is and also what other people are using it for. Pixel Peepers is based from flickr and it groups photos taged with a specific lens and/or body.

I hope any of this helps. Good luck with everything. Let us know how things turn out.

 

[Snurk71]

A couple of updates...

1) I went ahead and bought the 85mm to try out. It's on it's way.

2) I read the manual again on selecting the AF points. The red dots are a little hard for me to see in the viewfinder (not sure if it's my color blindness or not). But you can also do the AF point selection on the LCD screen (READ THE MANUAL, DUMMY), which I can see just fine. So now I know whether I'm on a center point focus or all points focus.