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[MaryAnnDVC]

MaryAnnDVC---I don't have a plan, I don't know what would work except that I think this money may be better spent educating the parents on the importance of getting a good education. In Minnesota we have a good plan for those that take advantage of it, Early Childhood Family Education, ECFE. They are fabulous classes for parents. Every district in the state has this but it is the same old, same old, those that need it the most don't use it. We have had "plans" in place for 20+ years to educate low income kids--Head Start being the most widely known. THEY DON"T HELP when the kid shows up to school not haven eaten since lunch the day before, after getting 6 hours of sleep and maybe knowing where mom and dad even are. The solution HAS to start with the parents or anything done at school will get undone at home.

You said yourself that there are all these plans to help parents, but that people don't take advantage of.

And this WHOLE THING isn't about blaming the teachers...it's about attempting to implement changes towards a solution, and the teachers not accepting the compensation offered, going so far as to demanding exorbitant compensation. You can argue all you want that you think it's a fair amount, and I can argue that I think it's too much.

The test scores are low, the dropout rate is high. They looked to the teachers to help work on it. In typical union fashion, the union demanded more money. The schools won't (and I believe, shouldn't) pay it. The union wouldn't budge. End result...the teachers were fired.

 

[kpm76]

Do you work extra for no pay? How do you support your family?

These teachers made $78,000 plus benefits for working 180 days a year. And before I get attacked for saying teachers only work 180 days, the union used this number when calculating how much extra teachers should be paid per hour for additional work. So if you want to argue that you work more than 180 days a year, use that number when calculating your hourly rate, but of course, that would make the rate lower. You can't use 180 to suit your needs and then argue that you actually work more.....

 

[golfgal]

You said yourself that there are all these plans to help parents, but that people don't take advantage of.

And this WHOLE THING isn't about blaming the teachers...it's about attempting to implement changes towards a solution, and the teachers not accepting the compensation offered, going so far as to demanding exorbitant compensation. You can argue all you want that you think it's a fair amount, and I can argue that I think it's too much.

The test scores are low, the dropout rate is high. They looked to the teachers to help work on it. In typical union fashion, the union demanded more money. The schools won't (and I believe, shouldn't) pay it. The union wouldn't budge. End result...the teachers were fired.

Are they just going to fire every crop of teachers that come on board each year when the grades don't improve? You can also bet that there won't be many applicants for the jobs. How much the teachers make is totally irrelevant to this issue. The fact is they were not offered fair compensation for their time based on their salary and expectations.

I still go back to the question--where is the plan to get the PARENTS on board in getting their kids educated??? Basically the school is now expecting the teachers to parent these kids too.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Are they just going to fire every crop of teachers that come on board each year when the grades don't improve? You can also bet that there won't be many applicants for the jobs. How much the teachers make is totally irrelevant to this issue. The fact is they were not offered fair compensation for their time based on their salary and expectations...

We keep talking in circles. It is clear that we are not going to agree. You are entitled to your opinion, but so are those who disagree.

Peace...

 

[kpm76]

Ok but teachers are also already working nights and weekends without pay and then they ask them to put in MORE time???

Teachers are salaried, which usually means you work as many hours as it takes to get the job done, so they are getting paid to do the work they do on nights and weekends. In what other profession would we argue that a salaried employee who has to put time in on nights and weekends deserves additional compensation?

 

[TheZue]

Teachers are salaried, which usually means you work as many hours as it takes to get the job done, so they are getting paid to do the work they do on nights and weekends. In what other profession would we argue that a salaried employee who has to put time in on nights and weekends deserves additional compensation?

It's true. My husband manages a retail store in a busy mall and at Christmas he works six days a week often 12 hours a day, he is not compensated for the extra time.

 

[TheDisneyGirl02]

I understand that the teachers are the ones who are in the news right now, but as many posters have said, they aren't the only ones to be blamed. There isn't a plan in place but do you think that the community and the taxpayers would be willing to pay more money every year to help combat this problem? I'm not talking about compensating teachers, I mean the program in general? Looking for more engaging lessons, programs to get families involved in their child/children's education, etc? Just a thought.

 

[golfgal]

Teachers are salaried, which usually means you work as many hours as it takes to get the job done, so they are getting paid to do the work they do on nights and weekends. In what other profession would we argue that a salaried employee who has to put time in on nights and weekends deserves additional compensation?

It's true. My husband manages a retail store in a busy mall and at Christmas he works six days a week often 12 hours a day, he is not compensated for the extra time.

Ok, in the retail example, you are talking one month of extra time, the school wants this ALL YEAR. They want the teachers to add 15 hours of work to their already overloaded week and add time in the summer--for which they are NOT paid. Do you really think that any employee ANYWHERE is going to add another 15 hours to their work day--which is almost 2 full days of work, without reasonable compensation---AND then STILL take the blame when this pointless program doesn't work.

I am sorry but even for a salaried position this is going WAY overboard with "work until the job gets done".

 

[TheZue]

Ok, in the retail example, you are talking one month of extra time, the school wants this ALL YEAR. They want the teachers to add 15 hours of work to their already overloaded week and add time in the summer--for which they are NOT paid. Do you really think that any employee ANYWHERE is going to add another 15 hours to their work day--which is almost 2 full days of work, without reasonable compensation---AND then STILL take the blame when this pointless program doesn't work.

I am sorry but even for a salaried position this is going WAY overboard with "work until the job gets done".

It is overboard but not unheard of by a long shot. My husbands old job the previous manager went way way over on the hours budget. Both the manager and assistant manager worked six days a week for the balance of the year, I think it was 8 months with no extra pay to get the hours budget back under control. When they came into the job the budget was off by 600 hours in a very low volume store, it sucked but it got him the experience that led to a good job. And Christmas isn't one month, generally November to mid January are off limits for vacation and their are increased hours throughout that if not a little earlier as the stock starts arriving.

Edit: I do think it's lame and I think this plan is just flat out going to fail miserably and put that school in a worse position. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people on salary deal with this crap.

 

[kpm76]

Ok, in the retail example, you are talking one month of extra time, the school wants this ALL YEAR. They want the teachers to add 15 hours of work to their already overloaded week and add time in the summer--for which they are NOT paid. Do you really think that any employee ANYWHERE is going to add another 15 hours to their work day--which is almost 2 full days of work, without reasonable compensation---AND then STILL take the blame when this pointless program doesn't work.

I am sorry but even for a salaried position this is going WAY overboard with "work until the job gets done".

I'm not trying to diminish the work of teachers but let's call a spade a spade. These teachers don't work 48 weeks/year like many other professions require. They are paid $78,000 to work 180 days. The trouble is not entirely the teachers but the union in this case that has decided that they were going to be unwavering in their demands to prove a point and set a precedent. They played their hand and lost.

 

[golfgal]

I'm not trying to diminish the work of teachers but let's call a spade a spade. These teachers don't work 48 weeks/year like many other professions require. They are paid $78,000 to work 180 days. The trouble is not entirely the teachers but the union in this case that has decided that they were going to be unwavering in their demands to prove a point and set a precedent. They played their hand and lost.

What salaried position only has 2 weeks vacation a year (and then Christmas, Easter, etc off)??? My DH is salaried and has 5 weeks of paid vacation along with 10 other holidays off, unlimited sick time and 5 personal days. The teachers in our district get 3 personal days and have to use those as sick days too.N

Also keep in mind that there are many days during the school year that kids don't have school and teacher do. In our district there are 180 student contact days and about 3 weeks of required time that the teachers are there that the students are not--mostly 2 weeks before school starts and about 5 inservice days during the year. None of this, of course, includes the days in the summer when teachers are putting together lesson plans, taking classes towards their masters degree-which they pay for at 100%, etc. Then add up the hours worked during the school year and they work a HECK of a lot more then most people realize.

The teachers at our high school are required to be at school either an hour before school or an hour after school every day, minimum, to be available for the kids. School starts at 7:30 am and gets out at 2:30, add another hour for their required time and it is 3:30. Then, each class they have take about 1 1/2-2 hours to prep, unless you are writing a test, add another hour for that so that is 5:30 for the teachers that have one class, 7:00 for the teachers that have 2 classes and 8:30 for the teachers that have 3 classes. Then they get to start grading homework......

In the RI example---I suppose they don't have the grading the homework part during the day because 40% of their kids don't show up anyway so they don't turn in homework--again, somehow that is the teachers fault though . Where are they supposed to pull another 3 hours/day out of their schedule to do what the principal is asking anyway. Oh, and this doesn't even include the coaches/advisors for sports and activities--add that time into their daily schedule and they put in a 52 week work week into 42 weeks.

 

[TheZue]

What salaried position only has 2 weeks vacation a year (and then Christmas, Easter, etc off)??? My DH is salaried and has 5 weeks of paid vacation along with 10 other holidays off, unlimited sick time and 5 personal days. The teachers in our district get 3 personal days and have to use those as sick days too.N

Also keep in mind that there are many days during the school year that kids don't have school and teacher do. In our district there are 180 student contact days and about 3 weeks of required time that the teachers are there that the students are not--mostly 2 weeks before school starts and about 5 inservice days during the year. None of this, of course, includes the days in the summer when teachers are putting together lesson plans, taking classes towards their masters degree-which they pay for at 100%, etc. Then add up the hours worked during the school year and they work a HECK of a lot more then most people realize.

The teachers at our high school are required to be at school either an hour before school or an hour after school every day, minimum, to be available for the kids. School starts at 7:30 am and gets out at 2:30, add another hour for their required time and it is 3:30. Then, each class they have take about 1 1/2-2 hours to prep, unless you are writing a test, add another hour for that so that is 5:30 for the teachers that have one class, 7:00 for the teachers that have 2 classes and 8:30 for the teachers that have 3 classes. Then they get to start grading homework......

In the RI example---I suppose they don't have the grading the homework part during the day because 40% of their kids don't show up anyway so they don't turn in homework--again, somehow that is the teachers fault though . Where are they supposed to pull another 3 hours/day out of their schedule to do what the principal is asking anyway. Oh, and this doesn't even include the coaches/advisors for sports and activities--add that time into their daily schedule and they put in a 52 week work week into 42 weeks.

Actually my husband gets 2 weeks a year and is salary. After a few years he'll go up to 3. I'm not aware of many private sector jobs that start with more than two weeks a year.

Edit: I just want to add i don't think teachers are overpaid, if anything they are underpaid. But really arguing that everyone gets the time off they do just doesn't work. Argue how important their job is. Argue that education key to a democracy. Argue that without a well educated populace you lose jobs and your economy suffers. Argue that they are setting the groundwork for future citizens to live independant productive lives. Argue you need to pay them well and respect them to attract the cream of the crop for such an important job. But don't argue that all salaried people get five weeks vacation or that they are the only ones that get tons of off the clock work because it simply isn't true and the other arguments are really more important and persuasive.

 

[kpm76]

Actually my husband gets 2 weeks a year and is salary. After a few years he'll go up to 3. I'm not aware of many private sector jobs that start with more than two weeks a year.

Thank you!! Actually, my brother is a general sales manager at a car dealership and guess what?? He gets no paid time off! No sick days, no vacation...nothing. He's salaried but also gets commission based on sales.

golfgal - there's no sense in either of us wasting our time continuing this argument back and forth because we just see things differently and that's fine. Keep in mind though, some of the examples you gave regarding the amount of time put into extra-curricular activities is likely community specific. In RI, teachers that are also coaches are compensated for coaching as well....

 

[eliza61]

I don't think the entire picture ISN'T being looked at, nor that all the blame is being put on the teachers. The city is well aware of the problems there...high percentage of minorities, poverty, drugs, absentee parents. It's just that this particular portion of it...the teachers...is what's making the news now, because the teachers' union chose not to accept what was offered.

But to suggest, even vaguely kidding around, to "fire" the kids that don't care...that situation already exists in the "dropout rate". And just having the kids get out of the school is part of the problem, not the solution.If the college grads now, who majored in education, don't have a clue that they're not going to make as much as maybe an engineer, then they haven't been paying attention. To make a blanket statement that college grads in general expect to make more than these teachers make, just doesn't fit the situation. If you don't think there should be "a plan", then what should happen??? I mean...whatever they do is "a plan", so I'm not sure what you mean. Having "a plan" is not synonymous with anyone thinking it's a magic solution.

I don't think there's a single solitary person involved in this, directly or indirectly, who thinks that the changes they are trying to implement is a magic bullet/one size fits/whammo anything, nor are the kids going to suddenly and excitedly think school is so much better now. I mean...seriously. Just because THIS is what is being discussed, here and on the news...the teachers' firing...doesn't mean they are ignoring all the other problems and how to fix them.

I named the reasons why, it would seem to make sense, kids aren't going to school, or why they're doing poorly. Lots of immigrants. ESL. Poverty. Drugs. Parents who don't speak English. Absentee fathers. And teen pregnancy too, I'm sure. Obviously, in any city/town with those and other problems, issues need to be addressed that affect youth and education, and no, I don't know to what extent it is. None of that is going to change overnight either. Perhaps teachers eating lunch with the kids and developing a rapport with them would HELP. And I'll pipe in before you do...NO, I don't think it's THE cure-all for the situation. Nor the only action that should be taken. Helpful tho? I think it could be.

And I seriously doubt anyone said "humm we have to get our test scores up nothing else matters" either. Please.

That's wonderful you had two parents at home who cared about you and your education, despite where you grew up. There seems to be a lot of that missing in CF.

Sure they are going with the "magic bullet". If they weren't they would have publicized any other measures they were taking. They've fired these teachers and are patting themselves on the back congratulating themselves for standing up against the big bad union. They have been asked a number of times where will they get the staff for next year and all they can come up with is "We're discussing alternatives". Now that's reassuring in 6 months they are going to hire and train qualified individuals to teach in the inner city. I've come up with better plans to go to wdw and I'm famous for just winging it.

It's systematic of the entire "teaching to test scores" mentality so prevelant in our educational system today. Our goal is no longer on the kids as learning individual, the goal is now to pass benchmark "test". In NJ it's the HSPA test. In the h.s. here kids have to pass the hspa in order to graduate, so the entire 11th year is spent not so much on learning a subject but on HSPA review.
In inner city schools it's worse. I'm willing to bet my very healthy salary that the emphasis in Rhode Island is NOT on those kids but basically on how to get proficient scores on test.

What's really funny (or sad) is that across the country there have been reports of other school systems all publically wondering if they can do the same thing, so now we'll see a rash of low performing schools firing teachers and all saying "See we're doing some thing".

 

[golfgal]

Thank you!! Actually, my brother is a general sales manager at a car dealership and guess what?? He gets no paid time off! No sick days, no vacation...nothing. He's salaried but also gets commission based on sales.

golfgal - there's no sense in either of us wasting our time continuing this argument back and forth because we just see things differently and that's fine. Keep in mind though, some of the examples you gave regarding the amount of time put into extra-curricular activities is likely community specific. In RI, teachers that are also coaches are compensated for coaching as well....

I understand the coaches are compensated but that pay is minimal as well and works out to pennies/hour. Commissioned based sales is not a good example either. I am commissioned based and get no paid holidays, sick days, vacation days but the trade off is I can take days off when ever the heck I want.

I challenge you all that think teaching is such a sluff job and they "only" work part of the year to spend a week shadowing a teacher and you will realize how far off base your comments really are.

 

[kpm76]

I challenge you all that think teaching is such a sluff job and they "only" work part of the year to spend a week shadowing a teacher and you will realize how far off base your comments really are.

I know that good teachers work very hard, go above and beyond, give of themselves and their resources. Not for one minute do I think it's an easy job. My real frustration in this case is with the union because they really failed the teachers. Not all teachers are compensated equally, but the Central Falls teachers were very well paid. When I was a government employee, I was so grateful for my nice salary and lavish benefit package. I mean it. This was about greed, not about fair compensation. $30/hour for additional work was fair; $90 was not. The administration also said they would seek out grant money to pay for the additional work that was unfunded.

 

[TheZue]

Nobody said it was a sluff job but that argument makes it sound like it's one of the hardest jobs out there, that it's somehow unique in the demands it places off the clock, the money spent on school. There are tons of jobs out there like that that don't offer the same vacation time around holidays and summers that also pay less. So when you put your entire eggs in that basket while advocating for wages it backfires. I know teachers, I was going to go into it and was prepared for the extra time, thousands a year for class supplies, etc. I know it's really really tough, but I would have known that going in; in fact I decided I probably didn't want to deal with the parents which is why I haven't finished but I still might at some point

But lots of jobs are tough, many are tougher; it is not a strong enough argument on its own. It's very hard to argue that with a nurse that works 12 hour night shifts and sometimes gets pulled for overtime. Arguing about paying for a masters is a non issue as well, most professionals pay for their education, not the employer; but argue the fact that teachers spend the same amount of time as doctors to get their education. I can't think of many professions that spend 7 years getting trained that top out at under $100k/year. Hire a lawyer and see how much they make an hour, it makes teachers look like a real bargin. A better defence of the vacation time shouldn't be "lots of people get five weeks" it should be "how many professions that take 7 years in school full time do you know that will almost never make over $100k per year and often start out at 30k, that's the trade off for the vacation"

Beyond that if you are going to talk about the money teachers spend talk about the money they spend out of their own pocket on supplies for kids who have none, and on classroom supplies that are not funded by the districts. Don't teachers on average spend $1000/year on supplies? That is a huge point that is often missed.

Teachers should be paid a lot to attract good teachers, because they are so very important and are highly trained professionals. I think the arguments that rest soley on vacation time and the difficulty of work are going to fail because there are many many jobs that work just as hard if not harder with less time for vacations that get paid less, and many are often very dangerous. Not only that those arguments actually devalue the amount people feel they should get because it ignores the importance of teachers, ignores how much they spend out of pocket to supplement an underfunded system, and their years they spent getting trained.

I agree with you 100% I just think teachers argue poorly and try to justify their salary very ineffectively when it should be so obvious that they deserve every penny they earn and more.

 

[FireDancer]

I understand that the teachers are the ones who are in the news right now, but as many posters have said, they aren't the only ones to be blamed. There isn't a plan in place but do you think that the community and the taxpayers would be willing to pay more money every year to help combat this problem? I'm not talking about compensating teachers, I mean the program in general? Looking for more engaging lessons, programs to get families involved in their child/children's education, etc? Just a thought.

Unfortunately many of the problems in communities like this are endemic and start in the home. I don't think anyone here doesn't think the problem lies solely with the teachers.

Short of walking around the neighborhoods with scalpels and ejecting the bad parents from the gene pool with forced sterilization there is little the schools can do.

Maybe if local government, the administrators, and the teachers all got together and worked on a problem without bickering they could get some plan hatched out. The root of the problem is far deeper then the school board can reach but they had to try something and they did.

Only time will tell if it works out.

 

[golfgal]

I realize that there are many jobs out there that are difficult too. Your example of a nurse, however, is not a fair example as nurses are paid by the hour, make time and a half for overtime, and double time and a half working on holidays--none of which teachers get. Also, around here, a nurse with the same experience makes about $20,000 MORE than a teacher not including the overtime and holiday pay.

As far as paying for advanced education--maybe things are different here but every company I know of offers tuition reimbursement for employees but no schools do.

 

[TheZue]

I realize that there are many jobs out there that are difficult too. Your example of a nurse, however, is not a fair example as nurses are paid by the hour, make time and a half for overtime, and double time and a half working on holidays--none of which teachers get. Also, around here, a nurse with the same experience makes about $20,000 MORE than a teacher not including the overtime and holiday pay.

As far as paying for advanced education--maybe things are different here but every company I know of offers tuition reimbursement for employees but no schools do.

And in that case I'd argue that the nurse needed 4 years of school while the teacher needed 7 yet is making less. Getting into pay is tricky because people will bring up how many hours the nurse is actually on the clock for that yearly income. I don't think people realize how long they go to school now. When many people think of 7 years of school the first thing that pops into their mind is a doctor or a lawyer but teachers are just as highly trained and deserve to be compensated for it. Not fired on mass because they were willing to work in the worst conditions and thought they were actually negotiating not being given an ultimatum.