Lawsuit over Disneyland's Magic Key Passport

[MakiraMarlena]

Disney's only alternative is to probably stop selling any "unlimited" form of AP for Disneyland at all. and they might do it, too.

 

[longboard55]

when the new pass came out they made it 100% clear it was not the same program as before. In fact they cancelled any old passes.

 

[emmybee]

Just like many things post-covid, disney is offering a product inferior to what we are used to. It was clear when details about the Keys were put out that the situation people are complaining about would happen. We didn't buy the "no blackout" key precisely because the whole bucket thing was shady. If I was to buy into the system, I wanted to go when I wanted to go, and the Keys system did not provide that option...not with buckets and reservations. It was clear that Disney could manipulate the number of guests per bucket, and they have done just that.

While sympathetic, it seems like buyer's remorse to me. I don't know if the bad press will drive disney back to the drawing board. If they really want to control the numbers of Key holders, they need to raise the price, stop they payment plan, and resist the impulse to oversell.

 

[PirateBrigade]

The reason I didn't think it was applicable is because of how airline miles programs work. Your airline miles program is based on airline points, points you earn, anniversary points, bonus points, etc and an airline ticket explicitly tells you exactly how many points it costs to get a ticket. To me, personally speaking, if Disney had a system where you purchased or earned points that you could then redeem for park admission then it would be more applicable.

The discussion around "I want to fly with my miles at any time" but really that was around the busy holiday season well that is because it's just based on the cost of the miles. If the example used was you are blocked from using those miles during the holiday season even though the airline miles program you're with says you won't be then the example becomes more applicable. I think it was just making a connection between someone who wants to use miles when those miles would cost more during the holiday season (so they may not have enough to purchase the ticket) but because the AP system isn't built upon variable pricing per day but a set pass purchased that comes with benefits I wasn't thinking the connection was the same. I do believe the example used was just to show people want what they want regardless and they just have an unrealistic expectation but I guess I didn't see it as fair to compare an airline miles program with what we're talking about. I wouldn't side with a person who is using airline miles because it will tell them how many points it costs. That wouldn't be the same as how I feel about this AP issue where the pass was purchased and the pass is the explicit reason they are not allowed a reservation.

So it would appear we were thinking differently on the comparisons to be made.


Yeah if it's allowed to continue good chance Disney will settle, not necessarily because they think they are wrong, but because it would mean information gets out. But if they don't learn from this (if it gets far enough that is)...boy...

Ah no wonder we disagree on the airline mile analogy — I’m referencing an old program that no longer exists with most airlines (lol, I’m old) where award tickets were a separate bucket of seats — the current “spend = points” programs (like Southwest) allow anyone to buy any available seat (miles/points or cash).

That latter shared bucket would be a disaster for parks and revenue!

 

[PirateBrigade]

Disney's only alternative is to probably stop selling any "unlimited" form of AP for Disneyland at all. and they might do it, too.

As of right now this is the reality - it’s not for sale, and IMO it should have never been sold at all in its current iteration.

I don’t know what clown data they used pre-launch - our speculation is they panicked with the depressed August park attendance - but now they’re stuck with these AP1 holders at least through next year.

They really should just make a Monday-Thursday unlimited AP, exclude major holidays. Heck, make an “influencer only” pass that’s only good on Wednesday mornings so I don’t have to hear them make videos while I walk around, hahaha.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The flip side to this is they have one bucket for all passes and key holders gobble them up, now the general public can’t get reservations. Now Disney has pissed off another group of people.

On the flip side with DLR the amount of general public people who frequent as I understand it has always been much much smaller than the AP. So it's not like it's a new consumer behavior. In the past however it was just park capacity as determined by fire marshal and with the pandemic the percentage of guests allowed in the parks at any given time.

I was actually reading a story from November and it was talking about how over time there had been at least advised on social media complaints about not getting park reservations with these APs. I don't know just what dates they are talking about though so I don't know if they were dates in the past or were dates for this holiday season that people were looking at in the past to book ahead.

This next part is coming from Len Testa (from Touring Plans) so grain of salt here but from that article he was quoted as saying "Pausing the annual pass sales also may be Disney’s way of heading off litigation that would arise if they sold passes that couldn’t be used because of those capacity limits". I'm not sure if the lawsuit was filed before or after but yeah I can see exactly what he's alluding to.

Regardless of what fence you're on (the local, the casual visitor, the one for the lawsuit, the one against the lawsuit, etc) I think we can/should be able to agree Disney got in over their head here. They wanted this reservation system, they advised it was here to stay but they also tried to integrate an prior product, even with updates, into this reservation system. IMO you can have one or the other but not both if you want it to run more smoothly without much issues.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Ibelieve it was a hypothetical figure just to advance the discussion.

I also find the comment about 3600 dream key holders invalid. There are so many more dream key holders out there.

According to the lawsuit: "on behalf of the 3,600 people who have purchased Dream Key passes."

If that number is the full amount who purchased the top tier and they are being blacked out for days around the holidays then it may really be that the number of APs and in consequence number of highest tier APs is quite small in allowance...tricky tricky.

 

[longboard55]

The biggest thing for us is we have DVC so we need certain days and that has not been an issue at all getting them, also no problem getting the holiday days such as New Years Eve. The problem is the person who wants to be able to go every day, Disney just can not handle that type anymore, it was getting way to crowded. And there were a lot who wanted to go every day.

 

[MillauFr]

According to the lawsuit: "on behalf of the 3,600 people who have purchased Dream Key passes."

If that number is the full amount who purchased the top tier and they are being blacked out for days around the holidays then it may really be that the number of APs and in consequence number of highest tier APs is quite small in allowance...tricky tricky.

But there would be no way for the law firm to have any clue how many people purchased the top tier passes. I would guess the number to be way over 100,000. 3,600 is probably the number of people they got contact information from and are interested in being part of a class action suit against Disney.

 

[MillauFr]

One question I have is if they are trying to reduce demand why did they offer free parking with the top tier passes?

 

[starry_solo]

I'm surprised Disney doesn't just set the no blackout APs at 10-15K.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But there would be no way for the law firm to have any clue how many people purchased the top tier passes. I would guess the number to be way over 100,000. 3,600 is probably the number of people they got contact information from and are interested in being part of a class action suit against Disney.

Could be, you may be right there.

 

[PirateBrigade]

According to the lawsuit: "on behalf of the 3,600 people who have purchased Dream Key passes."

If that number is the full amount who purchased the top tier and they are being blacked out for days around the holidays then it may really be that the number of APs and in consequence number of highest tier APs is quite small in allowance...tricky tricky.

But there would be no way for the law firm to have any clue how many people purchased the top tier passes. I would guess the number to be way over 100,000. 3,600 is probably the number of people they got contact information from and are interested in being part of a class action suit against Disney.

The more I think about it, the more this number doesn't jive with me. There's probably 3600 people on DISboards with top tier APs alone! (somewhat exaggerating)

The biggest thing for us is we have DVC so we need certain days and that has not been an issue at all getting them, also no problem getting the holiday days such as New Years Eve. The problem is the person who wants to be able to go every day, Disney just can not handle that type anymore, it was getting way to crowded. And there were a lot who wanted to go every day.

Friday nights in the park pre-COVID were HORRENDOUS. That after work/after school crowd was no joke. Completely rational decision, too... it was cheaper (with the AP) to go to DLR, grab a corn dog, ride a few rides than hitting up the bars in Downtown Fullerton.

I'm surprised Disney doesn't just set the no blackout APs at 10-15K.

Club 33? Just kidding -- the argument against that is that people who shouldn't be buying that pass will end up buying, and that's not Disney's fault, but it's a bad look.

I'm just imagining someone setting up a kiosk outside DLR offering $15,000 loans at 19% interest and giving away some Mickey ears for signing up.

 

[MillauFr]

I'm surprised Disney doesn't just set the no blackout APs at 10-15K.

A for profit corporation turn down revenue? Not going to happen. The stockholders would fire the CEO if he/she pulled a stunt like that.

 

[disneychrista]

On the flip side with DLR the amount of general public people who frequent as I understand it has always been much much smaller than the AP. So it's not like it's a new consumer behavior. In the past however it was just park capacity as determined by fire marshal and with the pandemic the percentage of guests allowed in the parks at any given time.

I was actually reading a story from November and it was talking about how over time there had been at least advised on social media complaints about not getting park reservations with these APs. I don't know just what dates they are talking about though so I don't know if they were dates in the past or were dates for this holiday season that people were looking at in the past to book ahead.

This next part is coming from Len Testa (from Touring Plans) so grain of salt here but from that article he was quoted as saying "Pausing the annual pass sales also may be Disney’s way of heading off litigation that would arise if they sold passes that couldn’t be used because of those capacity limits". I'm not sure if the lawsuit was filed before or after but yeah I can see exactly what he's alluding to.

Regardless of what fence you're on (the local, the casual visitor, the one for the lawsuit, the one against the lawsuit, etc) I think we can/should be able to agree Disney got in over their head here. They wanted this reservation system, they advised it was here to stay but they also tried to integrate an prior product, even with updates, into this reservation system. IMO you can have one or the other but not both if you want it to run more smoothly without much issues.

No doubt they over sold the keys (all levels). They knew prior AP attendance behavior. They had to know that this would cause issues. They need to pause an unlimited pass until such time that they can accommodate it, if there ever is a time.

 

[PirateBrigade]

Between DisneyForward, a fully staffed park, and putting back in more people-eater entertainment options…my hope is that DLR can go back to fully absorbing the full contingent of pre-2020 APs.

IMHO the only issue was the pain points of Friday/Saturday nights and holidays…that just requires a tweak, not a full blown reservation system with multiple buckets.

Or perhaps I’m overly optimistic.

 

[MakiraMarlena]

The problem is the person who wants to be able to go every day

It reminds me that the plaintiff, who was unable to get a park reservation for a day she wanted in November, purchased a single day ticket. She had to REALLY want to go on that day to go that far. I was thinking, if she wanted that day so badly, why not make sure you reserve it far ahead? But I'm not a Disneyland passholder so I don't know how it works there.

I'd be interested to know what class action limits are in California. I went to law school there, but that was in the 80s

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

why not make sure you reserve it far ahead? But I'm not a Disneyland passholder so I don't know how it works there.

She could have still reserved it that far ahead and been shut out. It's however many slots for passes (or even more finite which pass you have) Disney decided to allot at any given time. Like people have said something shows unavailable then shows back up as available again, Disney decides to move it all around so it's really not something you can just unilaterally say "well you should have booked it as soon as you could then you would have been fine" because that's not how Disney even does it.

 

[bcla]

A for profit corporation turn down revenue? Not going to happen. The stockholders would fire the CEO if he/she pulled a stunt like that.

There's a fine line between providing value for the customer and looking after the stockholder through unethical revenue generation. Think tobacco companies and how they deliberately hid evidence of the harms of their product.

But in this case I don't think the stockholders get upset simply because they don't feel that Disney is fleecing the customer enough whether it's trying to increase single-day tickets to Disneyland, jacking up the price of Disney+/Hulu, or playing hardball with Google over ABC and ESPN on YouTube TV.

 

[PirateBrigade]

I'd be interested to know what class action limits are in California. I went to law school there, but that was in the 80s

This is in federal court now, yeah? One of the articles mentions it was filed in California a month ago, but transferred to federal court since plantiff is in CA and Disney's in FL. You probably have a better sense of what that means than I do.