KIDS/COMPETATIVE EXTRACURRICULARS-help me understand

[barkley]

it must operate differently for high school sports depending on where you live.

one of the complaints parents have around here is that when it comes to high school sports the kids that have done all the extracurriculars, private coaching, special independant leagues...don't have an edge when it comes to getting a spot (esp. on the football teams). what happens is the "street kids" from a neighboring (much less affluent) town will arrange to live at an address in the school district with the better sports program, go out for that school's team and usualy beat out the kids who have had all of the top training. this happened routinely when i was in high school (we would always have a bunch of football players transfer back to their original school once the season ended) and continues to this day. the parents get upset that their child has "worked for" a spot via all of their private endeavors but they lose out to someone who has no professional training but rather a natural ability.

i worked with 2 moms-both had sons who did school sports, free community sports leagues, never had any high cost training/experience. both boys were offered major (full walk) scholarships to top colleges because of their sports abilites (one is now a top nfl player). both asked their son's coaches how thier boys ended up being scouted (neither attended high profile highschools). the coaches told them that local scouts keep an eye on the kids that are good-weather they play in the sandlot, the high school, the elite private league it did'nt matter. his sentiments were echoed by a friend who worked as a scout for the nfl-he actualy felt he could get better information about an athlete's abilities/attitude from a high school coach or from a free/low fee league coach- "they are'nt 'employees' of the parents".

 

[Sleepy]

i understand if a child has a tremendous talent in an area where professional training and competition could result in a probable self-sustaining future career, but it seems like most of these activities are such that if any career could be realized it is such a minute possibility that the benefits would never outweigh the costs. when it comes down to a professional dance career will the fact that the child has won trophies in some competitions give them an edge over an equally talented dancer who has not? will the finances and hours invested in a gym/rink/on the field give a kid any edge over someone who simply has more "god given talent" in a sport that 1% of the top 1% may even be offered the opportunity to try professionaly?

please help me understand

Ok, I will try. My son started dancing ballet at age 8. He is now 14. He has always known he wants to be a professional dancer. Is he the best? Heck no. Does he have natural talent? Absolutely. In the dance world, competitions are not really what makes a dancer successful. It;s just a way to get your name out there when you are ready for a professional career....and even that is no guarantee. (honestly, they really are way too expensive between costumes and travel expenses and I would never have my son in one because other than saying "Here I am, look at me", they don't give an edge over everyone else training wise).
Even the talented kids can only be as good as the teacher can mold them. if you have a bad teacher, the talented child will be terrible. if you have a good teacher, the talented student will be much better. Private lessons do help. Having more than one teacher helps too.....everyone concentrates on something different...hands, feet, etc. Going to summer intensives at the bigger name schools are good for experience and having another teacher see you and give you some pointers on how to improve, but they don't make you the best dancer in a month...that's not what it is all about. Afterall, what got you accepted to those schools was the training you got at your home school. The major summer schools will only really become important once you decide you want to stay with that school year round and are looking to be "seen" for the chance to join their pro company....and for them to mold you into the dancer they want because there is more than one form of ballet.
I do spend alot of money on my son's activity and I do invest alot of my own time getting him to and from class.......round trip it takes about 5-6 hours (including class). I feel it is worth it. This is what he wants to do as a career. College is still in the plan. Even if he is not the best, he will be doing what he enjoys. It could all be wiped away tomorrow. He could become bored and want to stop. He could become injured and unable to ever dance again, but the same can be said for the med student wanting to be a surgeon. He could get tired of the schedule or have an injury and become paralized in one hand.

As far as cost outweighing the benefit.........I never look at cost. You can't. To me, if my son is doing something he is good at and makes it professionally (whether in the Corps or a soloist), then the amount I spent is not too much. If he decided tomorrow he wanted to quit or got injured, the money I spent would still be worth it because I gave him the chance to try.

 

[barkley]

Ok, I will try. My son started dancing ballet at age 8. He is now 14. He has always known he wants to be a professional dancer. Is he the best? Heck no. Does he have natural talent? Absolutely. In the dance world, competitions are not really what makes a dancer successful. It;s just a way to get your name out there when you are ready for a professional career....and even that is no guarantee. (honestly, they really are way too expensive between costumes and travel expenses and I would never have my son in one because other than saying "Here I am, look at me", they don't give an edge over everyone else training wise).
Even the talented kids can only be as good as the teacher can mold them. if you have a bad teacher, the talented child will be terrible. if you have a good teacher, the talented student will be much better. Private lessons do help. Having more than one teacher helps too.....everyone concentrates on something different...hands, feet, etc. Going to summer intensives at the bigger name schools are good for experience and having another teacher see you and give you some pointers on how to improve, but they don't make you the best dancer in a month...that's not what it is all about. Afterall, what got you accepted to those schools was the training you got at your home school. The major summer schools will only really become important once you decide you want to stay with that school year round and are looking to be "seen" for the chance to join their pro company....and for them to mold you into the dancer they want because there is more than one form of ballet.
I do spend alot of money on my son's activity and I do invest alot of my own time getting him to and from class.......round trip it takes about 5-6 hours (including class). I feel it is worth it. This is what he wants to do as a career. College is still in the plan. Even if he is not the best, he will be doing what he enjoys. It could all be wiped away tomorrow. He could become bored and want to stop. He could become injured and unable to ever dance again, but the same can be said for the med student wanting to be a surgeon. He could get tired of the schedule or have an injury and become paralized in one hand.

As far as cost outweighing the benefit.........I never look at cost. You can't. To me, if my son is doing something he is good at and makes it professionally (whether in the Corps or a soloist), then the amount I spent is not too much. If he decided tomorrow he wanted to quit or got injured, the money I spent would still be worth it because I gave him the chance to try.

i agree with your reasoning-but i think ballet is a rare exception. acceptance into a corp IS based on exposure as well as training and experience-but ballet is one of the only forms of dance that still uses the corp tradition-and once a dancer is accepted into a top corp they can stay for their entire career and know that ongoing training and development is where they spend the bulk of their working days. most other forms of professional dance don't provide job opportunities that encorporate intense ongoing training and development as part of the job-you audtion, you are hired, you learn the choreography and perform (professional development is on your own time at your own expense). so if a kid is into tap, irish step, clogging...it won't make any real difference on an audition form to say "i was the top regional tap dancer for ages 10-16"it's going to come down to "can they dance/do they look the part" (and many a stronger dancer has lost out because they did'nt look right for a particular show).

your son has a talent and wants to develop it into a profession it's possible for him to do. i just don't understand the situations where the kid does'nt have it and the parents spend mega bucks they can't afford and encouraging a kid in something there is no way they will ever be able to even get their foot into the door professionaly (if that is what the parent or the kid is aiming for). it just seems like it would set the kid up for a huge emotional fall. i'm sure you've seen it in your son's classes-the girls esp. who live/eat/drink/sleep ballet and have all the right training, they dream of being a pro-but they don't have the right body type to ever even enter into a corp's consideration-their parents tell them "if you work hard enough..."-then they feel like failures when reality sets in.

i think it's great to have a passion for something and to have parents that support it-but i think it's a parents responsibility to temper the encouragement with reality and not encourage false hopes.

on a lighter note-i'm still waiting to hear if anyone has/knows of any life long career professional cheerleaders

 

[grlpwrd]

..
on a lighter note-i'm still waiting to hear if anyone has/knows of any life long career professional cheerleaders

A lot of these cheerleaders can go to college or professional sports or entertaining dance teams. Some even go into bodybuilding and fitness competitions. It can be lucrative depending on how the person wants to take it.

 

[dsanner106]

While I won't push my kids into extracurriculars, I do support them in those they want to participate in. It is important for them to find things they enjoy, and are reasonably good at in building self esteem, and teamwork skills. My oldest daughter tried soccer, did not do well, and fell into ballet. 10 years later, she was with the Atlanta Ballet and loving it. It took her from being the shyest in her class to a stage in front of thousands. She has wonderful self confidence. My youngest hated Ballet, but was a natural at soccer and is on the county traveling team, having a great time. My son, has tried and done well at a variety of activities and bounced around a bit. He has great friendships from these and knows what he wants to do. I have paid money for these, but cut corners wherever possible. You can do these things and not go broke. My Sons involvement in Boy Scouts lead all three kids to try archery at a local range. within six months my oldest was third in the state, and my youngest won first place in the state competing with a borrowed , battered bow from the range, beating a girl with 3000.00 in archery equiptment. You just have to look for opportunities for them that you can also afford.

Drew

 

[jim and meesie]

it must operate differently for high school sports depending on where you live.

one of the complaints parents have around here is that when it comes to high school sports the kids that have done all the extracurriculars, private coaching, special independant leagues...don't have an edge when it comes to getting a spot (esp. on the football teams). what happens is the "street kids" from a neighboring (much less affluent) town will arrange to live at an address in the school district with the better sports program, go out for that school's team and usualy beat out the kids who have had all of the top training. this happened routinely when i was in high school (we would always have a bunch of football players transfer back to their original school once the season ended) and continues to this day. the parents get upset that their child has "worked for" a spot via all of their private endeavors but they lose out to someone who has no professional training but rather a natural ability.

.

Football is probably the ONE big name sport where the extra coaching and elite teams are not needed to be a great player (probably the reason why there don't seem to be any "elite" football programs). As I've heard over and over "you can't coach speed or size." My son's best high school sport was football (he was "all league") and he never played before high school and only played it during the fall and only played it at school. The reason he did well (and also those less affluent kids you refer to) was that he was already a good, in shape athlete.
Some college coaches suggested that he could have played in their Div 1 programs, if he put on about 80-100 lbs. (he's already big at 6'1", 200 lbs). 25 years ago my husband played football in college after only playing 2 yrs in high school. My husband also has friends (2) who played in the NFL with no special training before college. So I guess the jist of my previous statement is that kids play on elite teams so they can play in high school would have the exceptions of Football and Track events where natural talent will always win out.
On the other hand, very few kids can make it in high school hockey, soccer, baseball, basketball, ski team, golf even cheering without having had more than a little previous training. I have to say hockey is my worst (my youngest does play hockey) and I know I'm not prepared to invest the insane amount of year round time that hockey demands. Unfortunately the coaches love my son and at this young age he is a very strong player but I have my limits. Now if I can just arrange to have something else conflict with next year's tryouts so we miss them and can bow out gracefully. I prefer basketball in the winter, warm games and very low cost equipment.

 

[jim and meesie]

your son has a talent and wants to develop it into a profession it's possible for him to do. i just don't understand the situations where the kid does'nt have it and the parents spend mega bucks they can't afford and encouraging a kid in something there is no way they will ever be able to even get their foot into the door professionaly (if that is what the parent or the kid is aiming for). it just seems like it would set the kid up for a huge emotional fall.
i think it's great to have a passion for something and to have parents that support it-but i think it's a parents responsibility to temper the encouragement with reality and not encourage false hopes.

on a lighter note-i'm still waiting to hear if anyone has/knows of any life long career professional cheerleaders

I think you are starting to get it! I think we all agree that parents who push kids into areas they don't love just to satisfy their own frustrated dreams are wrong.

As far as life long profesional cheerleaders, I think Paula Abdul made a good go of it. On a personal level we know a girl who is at DUKE as a cheerleader and her mom is a cheering coach. My husband's cousin went to West Point (and was a 90 lb. cheerleader at West Point). The ones we know are mostly coaching gymnastics or cheering or teaching dance. One girl is dancing at Disney. But keep in mind my daughter chose the ballet route over cheering.

 

[dani0622]

As a former grammar, high school and college cheerleader who made a part time career out of it I have seen it all. I have definitely seen the parents push their kids and spend ridiculous amounts of money for cheerleading (all-stars in particular). While coaching rec and high school levels we made it affordable to everyone, which is why we did fundraising all the time to pay for essentials like camp. Over the years I did see some girls leave the programs to go to all-stars which cost a heck of a lot more than a school team. Even had one girl who used our financial aid program for the school team do this but then had the hundreds of dollars to go to an all-star gym. As a former coach, I think the team dynamic is great for teaching youth self-esteem skills and letting them do something they enjoy and making friends in the process. I did have some girls whose moms wanted it more than them and I always felt bad for those kids.
Now to address this:

on a lighter note-i'm still waiting to hear if anyone has/knows of any life long career professional cheerleaders

Sometimes it's not about playing a sport to become a professional athlete. I am not sure if this is a dig at cheerleading or not, but I can assure you that while there are limited opportunities to become a professional cheerleader there are unlimited opportunities to work in the cheerleading industry. You cannot work in this industry if you do not have a cheerleading background. There are multi-million dollar cheerleading organizations that employ thousands of part-time and full-time employees. On a personal level, I spent 7 years working numerous part time cheerleading jobs. I coached, worked as a sales rep for a uniform company, wrote for a cheerleading magazine, had my own column on a cheerleading website, and was a professional judge. In those seven years, I made thousands of dollars and gained some great professional skills. Would I been able to do any of it without having been a cheerleader? No way. All of my part-time experience goes on my resume (I work in publishing). The skills I have gained from being a cheerleader in my youth have helped my adult life and my career.

 

[wilderness01]

I do know someone who robs peter to pay paul so her son can play traveling hockey and baseball. She said between all the fees for the year and travel for hockey it is over $5,000/year. They pay this but have no $ for retirement, no $ for his college saved, have their credit cards maxed out and had to have their water dispenser taken back because they couldn't afford to pay for it. I just don't understand this. My kids are travel teams and it does cost alot of $. But the difference is we can afford it, we have the above accounts that we pay into monthly and we will never have a water dispenser taken back due to non-paying. I say, if you can afford it and can take the time to do it (which really is the higher "fee") then go for it. But don't mortgage your families or kid's future to do it. That just doesn't make any kind of sense.

 

[declansdad]

Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth.


If you are pushing your children into extra-curriculars so that they can make a career out of it, you are doing it for the wrong reason. Yes some athletes will go on to play at a higher level and maybe even make it in a pro league but they are the elite of the elite.

That being said, children still need to be encouraged to participate in other activities other than academics. Not only will it improve thier self-esteem and fitness levels but it will also develop their social skills. If you don't encourage (and maybe at times force) your children to develop some other interests, they will be the children that sit in front of the tv and play video games all the time.

 

[Nancy]

My girls danced competitively (at least the 2 older girls did) The younger danced, but only locally, the older 2 were on the travel team. They only traveled every 2 years. My girls loved it, it didn't break us BUT it did take away from other things like vacations and going out to eat, etc. Once they stopped dancing competitively I thought we would have tons of extra money, but so far I don't see it...must be because everything has gone up some much in the last few years.

One of the reasons they stopped dance was the time involved in it. It really left no free time for school activities or friends. Dance was 7-10 hours per week, plus extra rehearsals. Somedays it was 6 hours on a Sunday. It stopped being fun. Were they ever going to be professional dancers? No..none of them had any intentions of doing that. They don't miss it and neither do I.

 

[brerrabbit]

jim and meesie,

Could not agree with you more about football. Success at a younger age in football is no idication of how a player will do in high school. As you said you can't coach size or speed. Earlier when I said that kids had to pick a sport early and stay with it to make the high school team the one sport I would exclude is football for the above reasons. The select team statement really applies to baseball, basketball, soccer, softball, and volleyball. Here in Texas the college scouts looking for volleyball players don't even attend high school games. They decided a long time ago that it was to much work for to little return. They just go to the elite club tournaments and they get all of the areas top prospects in one building for a whole two days. It's said that if your daughter does not play club volleyball her chances of a college scholarship in the sport are very slim. I think kids need a healthy mix of extra curricular activities ans free time to be a kid. In the world we live in today forces outside the home are driving our kids to not be kids at an earlier and earlier age. I think the healthy well adjusted kid has enough time to just be a kid.

 

[Brianne]

If you are pushing your children into extra-curriculars so that they can make a career out of it, you are doing it for the wrong reason.

I agree with this completely. 3 of my kids do one activity each. That's our family limit--one activity. And they have to be enjoying it or I'm not going to pay the money for it! Do I see it as a way for them to get scholarships or a career? No. It's just something fun for them to do outside of school. I have no problem paying for it, but I won't go into debt for any of it either.

Ironically, there's people who make a living playing videogames & competing in tournaments, so maybe kids playing videogames isn't all bad either.

 

[Skatermom23]

I don't know anyone that puts the family in financial difficulty just so the child can do an activity.

I think some of those parents try to live through their children and give them opportunities they didn't have and wanted.

We have one family at our skating rink that has gone into deep, deep debt for their daughter to skate. They are hopeful she will go to the olympics. She is good and does stand a chance. On the other hand, my daughter is also good but she isn't going to the olympics good. We do limit her coaching and ice time and competitions because it is expensive. Many figure skaters have the opinion that if you don't compete, why bother? My DD does it for the love of the sport and within reason of our budget, and she is perfectly okay with it. Now if I could just get the other parents and kids off our backs....

 

[barkley]

just to set the record straight-i have nothing against cheerleading.

it's just gotten incredibly popular here (the pay for particpation type) and the parents that are in deep financial trouble (using credit cards to pay their mortgage cuz the cash goes to the cheerleading stuff) always seem to justify it by saying "such and such wants to be a professional cheerleader/entertainer and this is an investment in her career". while there are as you've pointed out job opportunites in the cheerleading industry, these little girl's dreams of doing the fun, rah-rah stuff for the rest of their lives does'nt seem realistic and the fact that some are routinely pulled out of school for competition travel or due to exhaustion from practicing every night makes me think they might not have the education to handle the administrative end (it seems like even the ones that work for the pro sports teams have pretty short careers-it's def. not a job for someone looking to be able to do it for 30 years). and as far as it helping them become an "entertainer"-well, unless you offer something that entertains cheerleading is'nt going to be the make it or break it. paula abdul had talents way beyond her cheerleading (singing, dancing, choreographer).

the family that originaly inspired this thread is one we've known for years. they are paying for cheerleading school, cheerleading camp, cheerleading costumes, competitions, childcare for the non cheerleading sibs (who are unable to do much because of the time/$ invested in cheerleader sib) while mom travels with the cheerleader (an 8 year old who got a sudden desire to cheer in the past year) all while bemoaning their inability to finish building their home "because we can't afford it". thats what does'nt make sense to me.

 

[mom2rb]

I teach competitive gymnastics. All I ever wanted to do was be at the gym. I was never a great gymnast, but I worked very hard. The girls I teach all HAVE to be there. If the parents make them miss for any reason they cry. I want to be there. My DH would prefer me to be a SAHM again. I tried for 3 years, but I missed being at the gym. It is just something in you. I know some parents that do push their kids, but if you don't have the drive, it doesn't matter how much talent you have. My girls workout 18 hours a week. Then they stay for open gym on Fridays. They do sleep-overs at each others houses and play on their beams and trampolines. They don't ever want to stop. It is hard work. But they love it.

 

[ntburns22]

My DD6 has no intentions of being a cheerleader when she grows up. She wants to be a bus driver. We have no intentions of her being one either. To be honest if it ever came to the point that we could not afford basic living her cheerleading would go. I am just surprised how cheerleading is looked upon.

 

[bananiem]

I don't know how other people afford their kids' activities. It's never brought up in conversation. Sometimes we complain about the cost of new skates or whatever, but not how we're going to pay for them.
I find it interesting that the kids that do travel hockey in our town aren't the kids on the high school teams. They get burned out before high school. The guys who played in the NHL from our town only played in-house hockey.

 

[taximomfor4]

OP, I get what you are saying...I really do. Example: I know a little girl, 5yo. She does baton competitively. It took gymnastics 1 hour per day 3 days per week, private baton lessons 3 days per week 1 1/2 hours each session, and group (team?) baton lessons 2 days per week 2 hours each time. Oh, and dance (ballet and I think jazz) 1 day per week, 1 hour each class. I really felt for her. She could rarely make any parties, she had classes all the time. She does have some BIG trophies, has competed (and I think won) in National competitions, but at FIVE years old, I question it.


We don't make that choice, I want my kids well-rounded and carefree more than that. Would it be cool to see my kid in the Olympics? You bet. But I would be torn, I really would. That said, my kids DO compete. In Irish Dance, EVERYONE can compete. Your first year, you compete against other Beginners your own age. After that, you compete against Advanced Beginners your own age. But the competitions are inexpensive ($6-8 per kid per event)...and we carefully only choose a couple a year to attend, near home and NOT during other things (like school). They wear their school costume, which we already own (bought used). I suppose IF they move up and do well, and eventually reach higher levels of competition, we will have to get solo dresses ($1000+ is not unusual to pay) but we'll get them used.

I really think it is all a matter of individual choice, what the family values. For us, education supercedes activities. By a mile. The activities are limited, and are to develop healthy habits and encourage diligence, coordination, and self confidence.

 

[taximomfor4]

For us we do it to help with DD's self esteem and it is something she really enjoys doing (competitve cheerleading). She will have reconstructive surgery on her face when she is in her teens. We want to start building her up now to help her in the future. $600 is alot of money for a 9 month period but it is so worth it too us.

Added**** We are not breaking the bank doing this. We still put money in 401k and college accounts. We are by no means really well off, but it fits into our budget. Even in the off months we put money aside for cheerleading. We do know there are other ways to form DD's self esteem but we feel the relatationships she forms with her peers now will greatly help her in the future.

Oh no, what happened to your DD's face? (If you dont' mind sharing, of course. As mom to a special needs dd, I am indeed empathetic, although it may not sound that way on a message board.) I hope her needed surgery isn't too extensive, and turns out well.