Kenneth Lay died of a heart attack

[back2disney]

Are you saying that it's not his fault that he didn't get charged with insider trading?

No I am saying that the rules regarding lockups and windows for buying and selling weren't invented by him. If enron we're structured to let the employees bail at the top like him then he most likely would still be alive.

 

[brerrabbit]

Anyone who holds all there funds in the their companys stock is not diversified. If you didn't then I wasnt talking to you.

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Enron was tragic for many reasons but the loss of employees money was unique in corporate America. When Enron was formed in the mid 80's and was a fledgling corporation, two investment groups made a play on the company. Irwin Jacobs, and Lacadia Investment group bought up to 11% of the companies outstanding stock and filed notice with the SEC that they were considering a takeover bid. Enron chose to fight the takeover by buying the corporate raiders off. The took $330 million of excess funding from an old NNG retirement fund and borrowed $110 million against the stock they bought back. The SEC and IRS blessed the deal with the caviate that the stock had to be given to the employees. Starting in 1987 and for the following seven years employees received 10% of their annual pay in Enron stock credited to their 401K accounts. The allocation was based on the average annual closing price and the price they paid the corporate raiders. As the stock price doubled and split several times, the employees were getting more and more stock into their 401K's. The last year I was there I got almost 17% in my account. You could not sell the stock, diversify the stock, or cash out the stock period. You could not do anything with the companies contribution till you hit 50 years old. So what did this mean? By the time I left Enron with the stock in my 401K and retirement accounts that I had never paid a penney out of pocket for I had shares that between 1993 and 2000 would double and split till my portion alone would have reached a value of $4.8 million. Had I still been working at Enron in 2001 when they filed for Bankruptcy I would have lost every penney. Mind you I am not rich and never made more than $60,000 per year during the entire time I worked for Enron. Yet I still would have had almost $5 million in my retirement account. There were mailroom employees there who were worth a couple million on paper but could not do a thing about diversifying.

They were not stupid for not diversifying, they could not by the rules of the company and the rules for 401K's diversify in any way. They were just caught up in a very bad situation.

So I say again don't pass judgement if you don't know the whole situation.

 

[brerrabbit]

No I am saying that the rules regarding lockups and windows for buying and selling weren't invented by him. If enron we're structured to let the employees bail at the top like him then he most likely would still be alive.

I already posted the long version but in response to this I will say again, the majority of the stock held by employees could not be sold by the employees because of the rules. So whether the window was closed or open (which it was closed) it would have made no differance to the employees as Enron was sinking.

 

[Mermaid02]

high stress and MAYBE TOO MUCH GUILT!

maybe he could have lived a bit longer with the stress- but the GUILT? the guilt is probably what got him! so i my mind i LIKE to believe it was Karma that bit him in the butt!

ahhh- you are assuming he felt guilty. I doubt he did.

 

[back2disney]

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Enron was tragic for many reasons but the loss of employees money was unique in corporate America. When Enron was formed in the mid 80's and was a fledgling corporation, two investment groups made a play on the company. Irwin Jacobs, and Lacadia Investment group bought up to 11% of the companies outstanding stock and filed notice with the SEC that they were considering a takeover bid. Enron chose to fight the takeover by buying the corporate raiders off. The took $330 million of excess funding from an old NNG retirement fund and borrowed $110 million against the stock they bought back. The SEC and IRS blessed the deal with the caviate that the stock had to be given to the employees. Starting in 1987 and for the following seven years employees received 10% of their annual pay in Enron stock credited to their 401K accounts. The allocation was based on the average annual closing price and the price they paid the corporate raiders. As the stock price doubled and split several times, the employees were getting more and more stock into their 401K's. The last year I was there I got almost 17% in my account. You could not sell the stock, diversify the stock, or cash out the stock period. You could not do anything with the companies contribution till you hit 50 years old. So what did this mean? By the time I left Enron with the stock in my 401K and retirement accounts that I had never paid a penney out of pocket for I had shares that between 1993 and 2000 would double and split till my portion alone would have reached a value of $4.8 million. Had I still been working at Enron in 2001 when they filed for Bankruptcy I would have lost every penney. Mind you I am not rich and never made more than $60,000 per year during the entire time I worked for Enron. Yet I still would have had almost $5 million in my retirement account. There were mailroom employees there who were worth a couple million on paper but could not do a thing about diversifying.

They were not stupid for not diversifying, they could not by the rules of the company and the rules for 401K's diversify in any way. They were just caught up in a very bad situation.

So I say again don't pass judgement if you don't know the whole situation.

Thanks for the historical background. Its good to know the employees didn't technical "lose" money - they actually never had it. But doesn't that make the greed of those celebrating his death even more surprising?

edited to add
I will sum this episode up as an extreme form of jealousy. Have a nice day.

 

[disneymouse]

ahhh- you are assuming he felt guilty. I doubt he did.

really!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Thanks for the historical background. Its good to know the employees didn't technical "lose" money - they actually never had it. But doesn't that make the greed of those celebrating his death even more surprising?

edited to add
I will sum this episode up as an extreme form of jealousy. Have a nice day.

Defending a crook is an extreme way to honor his life.

 

[brerrabbit]

Thanks for the historical background. Its good to know the employees didn't technical "lose" money - they actually never had it. But doesn't that make the greed of those celebrating his death even more surprising?

edited to add
I will sum this episode up as an extreme form of jealousy. Have a nice day.

I am in no way celibrating his death. I just don't do that for anybody. I just wanted the whole story told. I also understand the point you were making, which is diversify your holdings, if you already receive your paycheck from a company, don't also buy their stock. You are already heavily enough invested in the company by just working for them. But as to your comment about not loosing money I ask this: if you work for a company that matches your 401K contributions up to a certain percent based on your years of service, do you consider the money they put into your 401K for you as not real money? In otherwords if you lost that money would you be upset? Isn't the idea of going to work for an employer based on their total compensation package? Would'nt you consider those matching dollars as yours?

Understand this; people lost money, lots of money, and we will never get it back. I accepted that a long time ago, others still have not accepted it. Ken Lay did illeagal things and he was tried and convicted for those crimes. He died before sentencing, end of story.

 

[bumcat]

back2disney - Are you in his will?

 

[brerrabbit]

After coming home and rereading all the posts on this subject I cannot for the lif of me understand what back2disney was saying in any of his posts, from making broad accusations about me to saying that the people celebrating Lay's death were greedy to saying if you lose company contributions to your 401K you "didn't technically lose money".

I am really confused by this whole exchange.

 

[TheDoctor]

The civil lawsuits and the SEC actions are not affected but Ken Lay's death has the effect of stopping or more difficult the process of the Federal Government seeking to collect penalties and fines from Lay's estate. The theory is that the guilty verdict is rendered moot by Lay's death and therefore the government can collect the fines and penalties from Lay's estate.http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/06/b...8236d4b0&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin
------------------------
HOUSTON, July 5 — In yet another bizarre twist to the Enron saga, the sudden death of Kenneth L. Lay on Wednesday may have spared his survivors financial ruin. Mr. Lay's death effectively voids the guilty verdict against him, temporarily thwarting the federal government's efforts to seize his remaining real estate and financial assets, legal experts say.

"The death of Mr. Lay in all likelihood will render the government's hard-fought victory null," said Christopher Bebel, a former federal prosecutor based here who specializes in securities fraud.

But while the death of Mr. Lay may have limited government efforts in his criminal case, he remains the subject of civil lawsuits by the Securities and Exchange Commission and former investors and Enron employees. Those lawsuits could still proceed, with the aim of taking control of some of Mr. Lay's remaining assets.

 

[momof2inPA]

HOUSTON, July 5 — In yet another bizarre twist to the Enron saga, the sudden death of Kenneth L. Lay on Wednesday may have spared his survivors financial ruin. Mr. Lay's death effectively voids the guilty verdict against him, temporarily thwarting the federal government's efforts to seize his remaining real estate and financial assets, legal experts say.

Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead.

 

[DISUNC]

Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead.

Me too! Very strange!

However if he is really dead! BURN BABY BURN!

 

[BuckNaked]

But my heart isn't aching for him--isn't really aching for his family either. I'm sure they loved him--but he was a slimeball who hurt many people and if it was his time to go. So be it.

I hope his estate can be attached for what the government wants to get from him.

According to the news, it will be the exact opposite - since he hadn't been sentenced yet, it will be more difficult, and perhaps impossible, for the government to get the $43 million they were trying to get from him.

Things happen for a reason--maybe it will be easier for them to get his money as willing it to someone won't protect it.

Perhaps things do happen for a reason. And perhaps his death occurred so that the government couldn't get the money.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

That sucks then.

 

[BuckNaked]

Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead.

I guess the coroner, the sherriff's office and the hospital are all in on the "conspiracy"?

 

[Charade]

Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead.

I bet it was a body double.

 

[TheDoctor]

That sucks then.

His estate is still liable for any civil lawsuits that are pending and there are a number of lawsuits out there. In addition, the SEC can still seek fines and forfeitures. I also heard that the government is evaluating whether to seek the fines anyway i.e. the govt may test the old cases that say a guilty verdict goes away when you die (a legal version of the old saying that you can not beat a dead horse).

Lay's heirs will not likely get much out of his estate. There are a couple of different class actions pending. Any life issurance may be safe to the extent that the estate is not the beneficiary.

 

[Mackey Mouse]

"Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead."

I have to say those were my first thoughts too....he faked his death, maybe watching too many true life crime shows....

When Enron happened, I thought about my husband's company. All our money was in that company, we could not diversify or touch any of it until retirement..you could borrow against it for education or mortgages, you could move it around in the company to different funds, but you could not take it out. It could happen to any of us who have everything tied up in that manner. Scary thought for sure, thankfully he retired and we diversified fast.

 

[escape]

Well, isn't that convenient. I, for one, have doubts he's really dead.

My DH thinks he is holed up with Elvis, Jimmy Hoffa, and others with Osama in some cushy Swiss resort.