just curious dont want this to get out of control bathroom use

[sam_gordon]

Only boring because there was no meaningful back and forth.

I think because each side only has "that's what I tihnk".

 

[tony67]

I think because each side only has "that's what I tihnk".

This is the issue with almost all conversations these days IMO.

TBH sometimes in a bar and I am talking with folks I obviously agree with - Ill take the other side just to discuss it with them and see how they react.

Most people (on both sides of things) don't want to even speak with the other side.

 

[sam_gordon]

This is the issue with almost all conversations these days IMO.

TBH sometimes in a bar and I am talking with folks I obviously agree with - Ill take the other side just to discuss it with them and see how they react.

Most people (on both sides of things) don't want to even speak with the other side.

I mean, I agree, if something makes you uncomfortable (in this case a female knowing there's a male in the women's restroom), nothing anybody says is going to change that.

BUT, I go back to a question I asked a couple of pages ago and no one replied... is there anything that says everyone MUST be comfortable in every situation? If you go into a public location and you see some people that make you uncomfortable (for whatever reason), does the business (assuming a business) owner/representative have the obligation to throw out those making you uncomfortable?

Personally I don't think so. If I walk in somewhere and I see someone that makes me uncomfortable (just based on their appearance), I'm either going to tough it out or exit on my own. Now, if someone is acting threateningly or harassing others, then yes, they should be thrown out. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Again, my opinion, but I think the claims of "woman are in more danger when males are allowed in the restroom" is a red herring. Can someone assault them? Of course. But if someone wants to assault them, a sign on a door isn't going to stop them.

Should/can things be done to make people more comfortable? Again, IMO, yes.

 

[tony67]

I mean, I agree, if something makes you uncomfortable (in this case a female knowing there's a male in the women's restroom), nothing anybody says is going to change that.

BUT, I go back to a question I asked a couple of pages ago and no one replied... is there anything that says everyone MUST be comfortable in every situation? If you go into a public location and you see some people that make you uncomfortable (for whatever reason), does the business (assuming a business) owner/representative have the obligation to throw out those making you uncomfortable?

Personally I don't think so. If I walk in somewhere and I see someone that makes me uncomfortable (just based on their appearance), I'm either going to tough it out or exit on my own. Now, if someone is acting threateningly or harassing others, then yes, they should be thrown out. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Again, my opinion, but I think the claims of "woman are in more danger when males are allowed in the restroom" is a red herring. Can someone assault them? Of course. But if someone wants to assault them, a sign on a door isn't going to stop them.

Should/can things be done to make people more comfortable? Again, IMO, yes.

So probably never going to make everyone happy. Someone will always find something to be offended about - again on both sides.

Even responding to your question might anger one side or the other - so again really cant have an open conversation about the topic. Everyone is looking for that gotcha moment so they can report the post.

 

[Disneychick13]

I mean, I agree, if something makes you uncomfortable (in this case a female knowing there's a male in the women's restroom), nothing anybody says is going to change that.

BUT, I go back to a question I asked a couple of pages ago and no one replied... is there anything that says everyone MUST be comfortable in every situation? If you go into a public location and you see some people that make you uncomfortable (for whatever reason), does the business (assuming a business) owner/representative have the obligation to throw out those making you uncomfortable?

Personally I don't think so. If I walk in somewhere and I see someone that makes me uncomfortable (just based on their appearance), I'm either going to tough it out or exit on my own. Now, if someone is acting threateningly or harassing others, then yes, they should be thrown out. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Again, my opinion, but I think the claims of "woman are in more danger when males are allowed in the restroom" is a red herring. Can someone assault them? Of course. But if someone wants to assault them, a sign on a door isn't going to stop them.

Should/can things be done to make people more comfortable? Again, IMO, yes.

There is nothing that says that everyone must be made comfortable in every situation. The goal should always be for the most people to be comfortable. And if that means that a small percentage of people are uncomfortable then so be it. I would venture to say that far more people are uncomfortable with an obvious male using a female only restroom than there would be people uncomfortable with no obvious males being able to use that same restroom. I have never used a female restroom and had an obvious male in there as well (besides children with their parents) So I presume That this is a fairly uncommon occurrence. I want to say the burden is on the individual to not want to make people uncomfortable. An obvious biological male (as in the original post) shouldn’t be in a restroom designated for females. It really shouldn’t be complicated. Just as I wouldn’t go in a male restroom so as to not make men uncomfortable, I would assume that all people would be that courteous.

It’s really not about the reality of someone being in danger, it’s the perception of danger. That perception comes from the fact the men make up like 90% of sexual offenders and somewhere around 25% (or more) of women have been victims of some type of sexual violence. It’s not a trans issue. It’s a male issue. That’s why one one cares if a trans woman that totally passes for a bio woman goes in the female bathroom. (Well I mean not no one but probably very few people). It’s about obvious biological men that do.

 

[Bad Pink Tink 2.0]

 

[starlite_]

I genuinely love this video. Thank you for sharing!

 

[RedAngie]

This confused me. It was only recently that people can physically transition via surgery.
Are you just referring to cross dressing or identifying as other gender?

It’s been much longer. People have been physically transitioning via surgery for decades.

Christine Jorgenson had surgery in Denmark in the early 1950s and became somewhat of a celebrity in the US because of it. But she was far from the first person to transition.

Johns Hopkins University Hospital in Baltimore has been helping people to transition since the 1960s.

No doubt advancements have been made since those early days.

 

[ramee]

I think because each side only has "that's what I tihnk".

Yeah. I didn’t think I had demonstrated a side. I just threw out a related idea to understand comfort levels and then commented about a few dismissive posts.

This discussion has ultimately been about comfort and who’s prioritized to be most comfortable; which usually turns out to be any marginalized group. It turned into- if you’re not with us, you’re against us.

 

[sam_gordon]

There is nothing that says that everyone must be made comfortable in every situation. The goal should always be for the most people to be comfortable. And if that means that a small percentage of people are uncomfortable then so be it. I would venture to say that far more people are uncomfortable with an obvious male using a female only restroom than there would be people uncomfortable with no obvious males being able to use that same restroom. I have never used a female restroom and had an obvious male in there as well (besides children with their parents) So I presume That this is a fairly uncommon occurrence. I want to say the burden is on the individual to not want to make people uncomfortable. An obvious biological male (as in the original post) shouldn’t be in a restroom designated for females. It really shouldn’t be complicated. Just as I wouldn’t go in a male restroom so as to not make men uncomfortable, I would assume that all people would be that courteous.

I would argue it's up to the entity to decide who they want to let into their restroom. If I'm at a business and they have a Unisex bathroom (with full stalls), should I avoid using it because it might make a woman uncomfortable? Or is it HER choice to use the Unisex bathroom knowing a male may come in?

It’s really not about the reality of someone being in danger, it’s the perception of danger. That perception comes from the fact the men make up like 90% of sexual offenders and somewhere around 25% (or more) of women have been victims of some type of sexual violence. It’s not a trans issue. It’s a male issue. That’s why one one cares if a trans woman that totally passes for a bio woman goes in the female bathroom. (Well I mean not no one but probably very few people). It’s about obvious biological men that do.

So you won't go into a store because there are males there? What makes it more dangerous being in a bathroom with males vs being in any other room/building? If you think you're in danger, definitely, leave the situation. The fact that it's only a PERCEPTION I don't think is enough to change things.

 

[WGCFV]

Most men's bathrooms are disgusting, especially at the parks as of late. Half the time I see men come out of the stalls, avoid the sink, and head straight out the door. Be careful what you wish for

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Most men's bathrooms are disgusting, especially at the parks as of late. Half the time I see men come out of the stalls, avoid the sink, and head straight out the door. Be careful what you wish for

Unfortunately I've seen more than one might think of women doing the same like what in the what wash your dang hands people

 

[Disneychick13]

I would argue it's up to the entity to decide who they want to let into their restroom. If I'm at a business and they have a Unisex bathroom (with full stalls), should I avoid using it because it might make a woman uncomfortable? Or is it HER choice to use the Unisex bathroom knowing a male may come in?

So you won't go into a store because there are males there? What makes it more dangerous being in a bathroom with males vs being in any other room/building? If you think you're in danger, definitely, leave the situation. The fact that it's only a PERCEPTION I don't think is enough to change things.

Of course a unisex bathroom is open to all. I’m not talking about unisex bathrooms. I’m talking about gendered bathrooms.

A bathroom is much more private than a store. And as I stated earlier the nature of most bathroom stalls in the US hardly give more than an illusion of privacy with all the freaking gaps.

And actually I’m not talking about myself. I’m opining about the situation in general. I really don’t care who’s in the bathroom. But I can understand why some people might have an issue. No matter our personal opinion, we should be able to look at issues through a different lens and not assume people are transphobic (not saying you said that, just in general) when in reality I believe the bathroom issue at its heart is strictly about men in women’s spaces and has little to do with transgender issues at all. People aren‘t afraid of trans women harassing women in bathrooms. They are afraid of the men who might masquerade as trans women to do so. 10 years ago if a man was in a women’s bathroom in a store then security would be called (because they were most likely up to no good). Today that can’t ever happen. If a man is in a women’s restroom there is no recourse, no matter what the person’s intentions.

 

[Kimkimba]

I don’t have an issue with it. It’s just not a big deal at all.

Our country needs to worry about much bigger things.

 

[leahgoogle]

There is nothing that says that everyone must be made comfortable in every situation. The goal should always be for the most people to be comfortable. And if that means that a small percentage of people are uncomfortable then so be it. I would venture to say that far more people are uncomfortable with an obvious male using a female only restroom than there would be people uncomfortable with no obvious males being able to use that same restroom. I have never used a female restroom and had an obvious male in there as well (besides children with their parents) So I presume That this is a fairly uncommon occurrence. I want to say the burden is on the individual to not want to make people uncomfortable. An obvious biological male (as in the original post) shouldn’t be in a restroom designated for females. It really shouldn’t be complicated. Just as I wouldn’t go in a male restroom so as to not make men uncomfortable, I would assume that all people would be that courteous.

It’s really not about the reality of someone being in danger, it’s the perception of danger. That perception comes from the fact the men make up like 90% of sexual offenders and somewhere around 25% (or more) of women have been victims of some type of sexual violence. It’s not a trans issue. It’s a male issue. That’s why one one cares if a trans woman that totally passes for a bio woman goes in the female bathroom. (Well I mean not no one but probably very few people). It’s about obvious biological men that do.

Of course a unisex bathroom is open to all. I’m not talking about unisex bathrooms. I’m talking about gendered bathrooms.

A bathroom is much more private than a store. And as I stated earlier the nature of most bathroom stalls in the US hardly give more than an illusion of privacy with all the freaking gaps.

And actually I’m not talking about myself. I’m opining about the situation in general. I really don’t care who’s in the bathroom. But I can understand why some people might have an issue. No matter our personal opinion, we should be able to look at issues through a different lens and not assume people are transphobic (not saying you said that, just in general) when in reality I believe the bathroom issue at its heart is strictly about men in women’s spaces and has little to do with transgender issues at all. People aren‘t afraid of trans women harassing women in bathrooms. They are afraid of the men who might masquerade as trans women to do so. 10 years ago if a man was in a women’s bathroom in a store then security would be called (because they were most likely up to no good). Today that can’t ever happen. If a man is in a women’s restroom there is no recourse, no matter what the person’s intentions.

Both of these are perfectly stated IMO!!!!

 

[Living42Day]

Aaaannd the transphobia has started. RIP thread. Reported btw.

Why was that post transphobic? Honest question. I see general discussion about this topic and it always leads to someone accusing someone else of being afraid of people who are transgender. I really do not think that poster is fearful. I doubt the word "tranny" will ever be acceptable to call someone but I'm not sure if that falls into the realm of transphobia.

 

[Babs Johnson]

Language changes , words change meaning. What was ok 33 years ago, is not ok today.

We dont use the word spinster any more
We dont use the word retard any more
The descendants of slaves in America are referred to very differently in 2023 than they were in 1903

it’s impossible to say how the person in my avatar (the performer Divine, aka Glenn Milstead) would refer to himself today if he was alive. But if he still chose “transvestite,” I believe everyone should respect his decision.

 

[Babs Johnson]

It’s been much longer. People have been physically transitioning via surgery for decades.

Christine Jorgenson had surgery in Denmark in the early 1950s and became somewhat of a celebrity in the US because of it. But she was far from the first person to transition.

Johns Hopkins University Hospital in Baltimore has been helping people to transition since the 1960s.

No doubt advancements have been made since those early days.

I’m guessing most people who transition by surgery wish to maintain their privacy. Christine Jorgensen wanted the whole world to know.

Of course many religious leaders, politicians, and the general public called her immoral, unnatural, a freak, and a host of other pejorative adjectives. But she bravely marched on.

 

[fly girl]

Most people (on both sides of things) don't want to even speak with the other side.

BINGO! This is our current downfall.

I don't know why we have become you MUST agree or you are the enemy. When did we all have to agree? *NEWSFLASH*, we don't! That is what makes the world go around. Otherwise we would be a bunch of lemmings.

If you finally concede that differences of opinions are a part of our society, then the issue at hand becomes working together. Give and take. Seeing the other person for who they are, not just one stance. WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER! Good gravy, we have become too self involved.

And one last thing before I scream get off my lawn ... get friends who think differently than you! You are more willing to listen to the other side when you are listening to someone you personally like. Of course you still may adamantly disagree, but you'll see even though you have differences you still care for the person. If you don't, then you are part of the problem.

 

[amylevan]

Of course a unisex bathroom is open to all. I’m not talking about unisex bathrooms. I’m talking about gendered bathrooms.

A bathroom is much more private than a store. And as I stated earlier the nature of most bathroom stalls in the US hardly give more than an illusion of privacy with all the freaking gaps.

And actually I’m not talking about myself. I’m opining about the situation in general. I really don’t care who’s in the bathroom. But I can understand why some people might have an issue. No matter our personal opinion, we should be able to look at issues through a different lens and not assume people are transphobic (not saying you said that, just in general) when in reality I believe the bathroom issue at its heart is strictly about men in women’s spaces and has little to do with transgender issues at all. People aren‘t afraid of trans women harassing women in bathrooms. They are afraid of the men who might masquerade as trans women to do so. 10 years ago if a man was in a women’s bathroom in a store then security would be called (because they were most likely up to no good). Today that can’t ever happen. If a man is in a women’s restroom there is no recourse, no matter what the person’s intentions.

I really try and avoid bathroom gender discussions because I feel like the transphobia labels are tossed around wily nily.

My issue is not, and never has been, a trans woman in the bathroom. They’ve probably been there all along - I never noticed and don’t care. My issue is men being able to get away with being in women’s spaces and potentially using that for harm. Is that a fear based in reality? No idea. But it’s where I am. Bathrooms are not patrolled, and often empty and in the corner of buildings. It’s often where teens go in school to do things they aren’t supposed to. It’s the same reason I was taught to walk to my car with my keys in my hands to make a quick entry to my car in a dark parking lot. And now we cant even say, hey, he’s not supposed to be in here.

And again, that Trans woman wouldn’t even draw my attention and she’s just as likely, if not more, to be a victim. So it’s not about her. But here we are.