Just Back. Issue 1: Profiling at Park Entrance..

[AngiTN]

If it was truly random, they wouldn't be wearing ear pieces. Someone is telling them who to scan.

You are never going to convince many of this. Earpieces do not indicate it is not random. Not at all

 

[AngiTN]

The fact that the security guards are stopping lots of middle class white people, or grandmothers, etc.... does not mean they aren't profiling. And if the stops are intended to be random there would almost certainly be some bias shown if we looked at a large data set. However do the guards have a formula they are following? Is it just every nth person? Is it random? Are they allowed to make judgement calls? Does anyone outside of Disney know?

Yes, it's clear they are pulling over plenty of white people for screening. But the plural of anecdote is not data. The only way we could really know if a bias was being shown would be to look at a large data set of people screened over a period of time. OTOH I'm sure Disney has considered this and although people here claim the screening is random it might intentionally not be, although we don't know the criteria used.

So by pulling out white people it proves they are not selecting randomly? Ok.

 

[AshleyLovesDisney]

I do believe there is some kind of "profiling" going on, but as others have said, it's not racial.

In February, DH (we're white, btw) was selected everyday. Without fail. I was never picked, not once. Something about him was just flagging, I guess. But they really need to work on it, bc it's obviously only affecting certain people.

Once the guard came up and said "You've been randomly selected....." And DH said "Is it because I'm so charming?"

 

[magicjojo]

No the fact that they are pulling out white people does not prove that the screening isn't random. But the fact that they are pulling out white people does not prove they are not profiling, racial or otherwise. Having lots of people on here report that they and their white family got pulled over does not mean the guards do not racially profile. I don't know if they do. I'm just saying that reporting the anecdote that your middle class white family got screened does not mean anything other than that. It does not mean you aren't more likely to be screened as a person of color, or a single guy, or whatever. Basically none of us really know and if the instruction to the guards is to attempt to be random...then I believe a large data set would show bias (probably towards people of color and single people if I had to guess).

 

[JoWilly]

No the fact that they are pulling out white people does not prove that the screening isn't random. But the fact that they are pulling out white people does not prove they are not profiling, racial or otherwise. Having lots of people on here report that they and their white family got pulled over does not mean the guards do not racially profile. I don't know if they do. I'm just saying that reporting the anecdote that your middle class white family got screened does not mean anything other than that. It does not mean you aren't more likely to be screened as a person of color, or a single guy, or whatever. Basically none of us really know and if the instruction to the guards is to attempt to be random...then I believe a large data set would show bias (probably towards people of color and single people if I had to guess).

I challenge your premise. From looking at my experience alone I was pulled out to participate in 3 out of 5 park visits. That's a 60% ratio in days that a person of non-color got selected.

 

[Magical Mama]

32 y.o., mother of two, with DH, both kids and a stroller and I've been randomly selected.

It appears these days, everything Disney does will upset someone. Increased their security and people still aren't happy. I don't mind being picked, I'm happy to take the two minutes out to know that Disney security are taking extra measures to kee us safe while enjoying the magic.

 

[magicjojo]

What if, at the time you were pulled out no people of color were in line? You don't know. What if, at the time you were pulled out, all the people of color at the other kiosks were pulled out? You don't know. I am not saying I think the guards are racially profiling. I am only saying that sharing your anecdote does not get us closer to knowing. Based on my observations at the parks over spring break there are many higher numbers of white people at the park than people of color. That means that many more white people will be screened on the whole. Still does not mean there isn't a bias. Also, they may profile other catagories of people...single people, people under 40, people travelling without children etc.... Personally I believe that Disney probably paid some actuarial consulting firm to create some algorithm for them in order to catch those most likely to cause problems while eliminating the bias and inaccuracies that would most likely result from truly "random" screenings. In other words I'm sure there is plenty of "random" in the algorithm...but it isn't all random. But it's random enough not to show bias.

 

[AngiTN]

What if, at the time you were pulled out no people of color were in line? You don't know. What if, at the time you were pulled out, all the people of color at the other kiosks were pulled out? You don't know. I am not saying I think the guards are racially profiling. I am only saying that sharing your anecdote does not get us closer to knowing. Based on my observations at the parks over spring break there are many higher numbers of white people at the park than people of color. That means that many more white people will be screened on the whole. Still does not mean there isn't a bias. Also, they may profile other catagories of people...single people, people under 40, people travelling without children etc.... Personally I believe that Disney probably paid some actuarial consulting firm to create some algorithm for them in order to catch those most likely to cause problems while eliminating the bias and inaccuracies that would most likely result from truly "random" screenings. In other words I'm sure there is plenty of "random" in the algorithm...but it isn't all random. But it's random enough not to show bias.

Is that not all that is needed? OP said it was biased. Most believe the opposite, that there is no bias. Call it want you want. Random, no bias, whatever. Bottom line is the same, right?

 

[hiroMYhero]

Just dropping in to remind everyone to please follow the DIS posting guidelines.
DISboard posting guidelines

 

[AngiTN]

What if, at the time you were pulled out no people of color were in line? You don't know. What if, at the time you were pulled out, all the people of color at the other kiosks were pulled out? You don't know. I am not saying I think the guards are racially profiling. I am only saying that sharing your anecdote does not get us closer to knowing. Based on my observations at the parks over spring break there are many higher numbers of white people at the park than people of color. That means that many more white people will be screened on the whole. Still does not mean there isn't a bias. Also, they may profile other catagories of people...single people, people under 40, people travelling without children etc.... Personally I believe that Disney probably paid some actuarial consulting firm to create some algorithm for them in order to catch those most likely to cause problems while eliminating the bias and inaccuracies that would most likely result from truly "random" screenings. In other words I'm sure there is plenty of "random" in the algorithm...but it isn't all random. But it's random enough not to show bias.

You've been to Disney, right? I've never gone through a bag check/security line and seen all caucasian. They get way too big a variety of guests for that to ever happen, in my opinion.

 

[magicjojo]

Is that not all that is needed? OP said it was biased. Most believe the opposite, that there is no bias. Call it want you want. Random, no bias, whatever. Bottom line is the same, right?

Well, yes, if I'm right! But of course I might not be. You quoted from what I said I personally think Disney is doing. I don't actually know they are using an algorithm that corrects for bias I just think they probably are. Obviously executives at Disney are familiar with all kinds of research showing how biased "random" selections are...I can almost guarantee there is a more formulaic way these security guards are going about pulling people for screening. Esentially it is a way to "hide" profiling.

 

[magicjojo]

You've been to Disney, right? I've never gone through a bag check/security line and seen all caucasian. They get way too big a variety of guests for that to ever happen, in my opinion.

Okay, but do you agree that none of us can know, based only on our own experiences and anecdotes, the actual percentages of people admitted vs. people pulled out for screening in any given group of people? We can go around and around, have theories and suspicions, but the truth is, none of us really know the criteria used or the instructions given for this screening. Thus we cannot rule out bias.

 

[JimmyV]

In other words I'm sure there is plenty of "random" in the algorithm...but it isn't all random. But it's random enough not to show bias.

Exactly.

Is that not all that is needed? OP said it was biased. Most believe the opposite, that there is no bias. Call it want you want. Random, no bias, whatever. Bottom line is the same, right?

It all depends if you are the one of the many people being truly randomly selected, or if you are one of the people who is consistently selected. To the former, it doesn't matter. You should get pulled out of line no more often than the word "random" suggests. But if you are one of the latter, it is not the same. Let's use a non-racial example. Suppose the security officers are instructed to pull out of line any person wearing a T-Shirt with a questionable or threatening slogan, such as "Death To Authority!!" If you are wearing that T-Shirt, you are going to get pulled out of line every single time. So as to you, it is not random, so the bottom line is that it is not the same. Now, very, very few people actually wear such T-Shirts, so during the 97% of the time that the security guards are monitoring people and not seeing any cues that would cause them to act in a non-random manner, they do indeed act randomly. (Or so we are led to believe. In actuality, unless the security guards are using a random number generator and selecting people based on the choices made by that random generator, then there is some sort of non-random selecting going on.) So the bottom line is that from an observer looking at this from the 30,000 foot view, things might look random. But to the people at ground level wearing attire that the security guards have been instructed to be mindful of, then it is not at all random. In the end, if you don't check any of the boxes that Disney is looking for, then as to you it is random. But it would be irrational (and scary) to think that Disney is employing enhanced screening, but has no checked boxes that it is looking for. I would certainly hope that the security guards can and would override "randomness" when they see a person walking toward the gate who looks like they are wearing an explosive vest and is holding a controller in his hand with a red button on top. In that circumstance, don't you want randomness to be jettisoned?

All that magicjojo is saying is that we learn nothing when lots of people in the 97% report back here that they were randomly selected. No one is doubting that this is true and that randomness is applies most of the time. But that does not negate the possibility of "targeting" 1%-3% of the time.

 

[CAS239]

If it was truly random, they wouldn't be wearing ear pieces. Someone is telling them who to scan.

This is not true. No one is telling them who to grab to scan. The checkpoint is ran by people employed by their company, they don't work for Disney. There's not some group of secret people watching in a building telling them who to grab. I actually don't think I've seen any of the ones motioning people for the screen wearing ear pieces.

The ones wearing ear pieces are security guards who use it to communicate.

 

[JoWilly]

What if, at the time you were pulled out no people of color were in line? You don't know. What if, at the time you were pulled out, all the people of color at the other kiosks were pulled out? You don't know. I am not saying I think the guards are racially profiling. I am only saying that sharing your anecdote does not get us closer to knowing. Based on my observations at the parks over spring break there are many higher numbers of white people at the park than people of color. That means that many more white people will be screened on the whole. Still does not mean there isn't a bias. Also, they may profile other catagories of people...single people, people under 40, people travelling without children etc.... Personally I believe that Disney probably paid some actuarial consulting firm to create some algorithm for them in order to catch those most likely to cause problems while eliminating the bias and inaccuracies that would most likely result from truly "random" screenings. In other words I'm sure there is plenty of "random" in the algorithm...but it isn't all random. But it's random enough not to show bias.

Wow you are stretching to make this something it wasn't. We were there at rope drop each day. Trust me it was a Crayola box of color.

 

[magicjojo]

Wow you are stretching to make this something it wasn't. We were there at rope drop each day. Trust me it was a Crayola box of color.

Let me ask you this; does it even make sense to you that the screenings would be completely random? And if you truly think they are, walk me though how Disney accomplishes that.

 

[CAS239]

The only fact that anyone can go by is that the majority of guests are middle aged white Americans. If you have a high majority of guests being grouped in one subset, then facts are that most of the guests being chosen for screenings will be from that group. It's a random selection.

I'm a 6ft tall, white, 25 yr old male that usually wears basketball shorts and a shirt with no bags into the park. I've been selected probably 3 times out of 10. And every time I was selected was when we were entering in the afternoon when only a handful of people were entering. So my odds were that much greater when I'm entering with only say 10 other people.

The real complaint would be if they were only choosing people of middle eastern background, "criminal" looking people, or any other stereotype. The fact that they choose people from all colors, ages, and clothing styles shows it's indeed random

 

[CAS239]

Let me ask you this; does it even make sense to you that the screenings would be completely random? And if you truly think they are, walk me though how Disney accomplishes that.

Why wouldn't it make sense for it to be random? Their not only grabbing one set of people.

The screenings see the line come through either bag or no bag line. They ask someone randomly to step over. During that time, everyone else passes by. They don't select another until the person selected is done with the metal detector. They don't just racially profile and have a line of people lined up to be checked

 

[redsbe]

If it was truly random, they wouldn't be wearing ear pieces. Someone is telling them who to scan.

everyone working security in the parks wears ear pieces so they can all be informed if there is a security issue

 

[magicjojo]

I think it's interesting that many people cite their individual experiences as evidence or proof of non-profiling or the randomness of the screening, but object to the OP extrapolating that his experience would indicate profiling. Either we can draw a greater meaning out of any given individuals experience, or we can't. I don't really think we can. I think it probably works something like this...every fifth person through the gate is screened in addition to every person who has three or more criteria from a list...under 40, alone, and male for example. I can't believe that Disney would open themselves up to the potential legal issues of a "random" search based on personal judgement since there is a body of research showing people are not capable of totally randomly selecting individuals and subconcious bias will inform their decisions. Not to mention completely random searches aren't very effective.