Jim Hill article on Project Gemini

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt
But what has changed about this dynamic? Really, haven't the teens always been a problem? Its not that Disney never thought of addressing the issue, they just chose not to because its difficult to address it without hurting the rest of the Disney crowd.

Hey Matt - go back and look at the disneyland dvd - the park was full of teens in their ties and dresses. They had tons of music and dancing to bring in the teens of that time.

I was a teenager in Florida when Epcot opened in the early 80s and it was NOT on anyone's list to go to. The whole supposed to be education thing killed it from the start. Remember that epcot was the first non-magic kingdom park.

I sort of almost like the coaster idea. I have to think about it, but I think I like it. Of course I like the soarin clone, that would be great.

Actually, I think I like the time racers thing. SE is a nice relaxing ride, but you really shouldn't have to listen to pink floyd on head phones to be able to enjoy an attraction. I know some old timers and purists love it, and fear for the loss of AA's, but I think they could do a good revision there that would be forward thinking and an improvement. It really is pretty tired, to me.

I almost think that the jr. autopia is a good idea, but I don't like the idea of the noise. It would be nice to give young drivers something fun while the others are on test track. HOPEFULLY if they ever did this they could use electric cars, with much quiter speakers in the seats to give the tikes the car engine sound thrill without involving the rest of our ears.

I really like adding the greenery. Epcot can be a very beautiful place, and I would like to see that added to. I like breaking up the innoventions buildings.

I wouldn't mind seeing wonders of life go, really, if they replace it with something. I wouldn't mind seeing Ellen go, either. I know they have their fans.

Speaking of which, I must be the last fan of living seas. Sure, I've been to several aquariums, but I love living seas. It is very relaxing to me, I love to visit the manatees and the large aquarium as well. I hope it wouldn't be tackied up or preschoolerized with a little mermaid theme.

Jim Hill's picture looks to me like somebody has been playing roller coaster tycoon.
DR

 

[wtg2000]

Project Gemini looks intriguing. However, if they build it I think one addition will be needed: an exit behind the American Adventure. The melee to the buses and parking lot that now ensues after Illuminations is barely bearable. Imagine it with narrow winding paths and one side of Spaceship Earth closed off. It would be a nightmare.

 

[larworth]

It seems that we have had more leaks on this project than any I can remember. Is this just the same leak making its way around the circuit (WDWmagic, screamscape, etc.) or is this a way some WDI folks think they might be able to get some public support and pressure to actually get something done?

On the thrill/family ride issue I found this recent quote by the PR head at Cedar Point interesting

Janice Witherow: However, we are seeing a shift with the "baby boomers" and demographics, and that's something we're always looking at. There's no doubt that if you look across the country, family rides and attractions are the frontrunners. They're the biggest thing in the amusement industry right now along with the incredible new roller coasters.

We have the king of thrill parks talking family rides and Epcot talking thrills?

Scoop, with your contacts at Epcot it would be interesting to know their take on Hill’s comment about Epcot management fighting past efforts to make the park more kid friendly. Is this comment just off-base, or have they really been fixated on trying to perpetuate a certain model for the park?
Also, if the Spainards really want the kewlest ride why would this be a hang-up, if they are going to pay for it?

I don’t think this is the grandest of plans, but it probably reflects years of WDI having to deal with getting their ideas rejected. That’s the dreaded by-product of a culture that has been nurtured around value engineering.

In order to change the perception of Epcot I would advocate a big-bang over doing it incrementally. I’m OK with the name change, the greening up, the addition of Time Racers, the Seas re-do, a future replacement of Life, and cloning Soarin just makes too much sense (cost, appeal) not to do somewhere. I love inverted coasters (yes Bob a B&M would be a must), but have reservations about the addition of the Rainforest coaster, the hedge maze and the Autopia Jr. ride. Are these really the best additions for the money?

I give the plan a B. Clearly, if they spend this type of money here it will cause some stagnation at the other parks. I would have to see what I could get with the same money spread out over all four parks, before I gave it a go, but after a few years of less than stellar report cards I'm tempted to take the B and run.

 

[All Aboard]

You guys are going to set a world record for spelling variations on the word "Spaniards".

larworth, we are dead center on the same page on this one. I really like a lot of the ideas. I don't mind giving up Spaceship Earth - the ride in favor of a bang-up attraction that really works the senses. Given that rumors continue to circulate about Microsoft being the sponsor, I imagine Gates would have very stong influence on the attraction being cutting edge.

Soaring (and Stormrider) would make great additions to The Land. I'd rather see the space between Imangination and The Land be used for Stormrider because a hedge maze (no matter how intricate) ain't gettin' me too juiced up.

Indeed something needs to happen to The Living Seas. Under the Sea seems like an interesting concept, anything is a plus.

The thought of an outdoor coaster parked in front of The Land is giving me stomach aches.

The junior autopia concept would be much better if it were somehow integrated into the Test Track building, rather than have it as an outdoor track.

 

[Cricket2]

I'm sorry, but I saw an open window and just couldn't help myself....

JC

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

That is TOO funny!!!!

LOL!

 

[morphi]

Great stuff, Mr. J. Cricket!!! I particularly liked the "Mission:Space without a view" and "Eat Sebastian and your favorite characters."

 

[Another Voice]

It is rather interesting that Mr. Hill didn’t speak about the other part of Project Gemini. Despite his little language lesson in the article, Gemini means “the twins”, as in “two similar yet distinct halves”.

It’s “rumored” that World Showcase has a similar overlay plan – the odd assortment of new decorations, minor changes to exiting structures and the addition of purchased elements. In fact, this kind of “overlay” rehab is now something of a cottage industry inside Disney. Everything from Tomorrowland to Disneyland’s Holiday make-over to completely revamping parks like Epcot and California Adventure gets the Trading Spaces routine.

What’s also missing from Mr. Hill’s column is the one very special rumor – the new gate between “Epcot Discovery Theme Park” and the “World Showcase”. Even the modest proposals are going cost Disney money and that’s money that has to return 20% more. And with the collapse of all the sponsorships, a huge chunk of Epcot’s revenue has vanished. It’s rumored that Epcot – to meet corporate standards – would have to be twice as profitable. So the main thrust of the plan is roughly: how do you take one park and make double the money you make out of it?

You know the answer.

It’s commonly bantered about that some 40% of the adults traveling to WDW are traveling without children. While the Disney/MGM Studios is rumored to lead for single day tickets, it’s rumored that it’s because of all those cheerleading and other children’s sports groups that flood the All Stars (and the tickets which are included with those deals). It’s furthered rumor that Epcot is the leader in purchased single day tickets. Think about it – all those conventioneers who aren’t interested in ‘Dumbo’ but won’t mind a really good Italian restaurant.

And thus –the rumored heart of the “Gemini”. An expanded Discoveryland now “worth a full day’s ticket” (hey, it’d still have more attractions than California Adventure) and a separately ticketed park right next door. Most guests won’t mind because they already have park hoppers. But all those convention goers, locals out for fine dining, and other adults with fat wallets would continue buying tickets. Interesting economics.

 

[DisneyKidds]

But all those convention goers, locals out for fine dining, and other adults with fat wallets would continue buying tickets. Interesting economics.

For Disney to make additional money from splitting Epcot into two parks, one has to assume that those people who are paying for single day admissions will actually pay for single day admissions to both parks, or the new Epcot(s) would have to attract people who aren't currently buying an Epcot admission for Epcot as it exists today.

If conventioneers and fine diners are a target, they are only likely to buy a World Showcase ticket. If they are paying for an Epcot ticket already, where is the carrot for Disney? If you assume that they aren't paying for an Epcot ticket already, where is the carrot for them to purchase a World Showcase ticket. It would seem that Disney would have to price that ticket lower than they currently price an Epcot ticket if they were going to lure these people. Or perhaps, as you have hinted in the past, they wouldn't charge for the World Showcase ticket, thereby allowing a flood of new people to come in and spend money on the restaurants. Personally, I think that idea sucks as it can be hard enough to get a dinner ressie during a busy time.

If WDW magically had a 5th gate, what is the likelihood they'd raise the price for park hoppers and AP's. I don't recall, did those prices go up with the addition of AK?

 

[mudhen]

That would take care of Disney's "5th gate", wouldn't it?

This is the Team Disney mess, if they don't neglect
certain parts of Epoct through most of the 90's,
(only 1 new world showcase, zero updates for Body
Wars, Cranium Command, Living Seas, etc.) then maybe such $300-500 million dollar measures aren't
necessary.

I like the ideas, I do wonder though what effect
this huge infusion of money (possible anyway) will
have on updates and additions at the other parks
(specifically Animal Kingdom).

Does anyone else think the "rainforest coaster" would be a better fit in the Asia section of AK??

 

[HB2K]

If WDW magically had a 5th gate, what is the likelihood they'd raise the price for park hoppers and AP's. I don't recall, did those prices go up with the addition of AK?

You bet they did....and not only that, when buying a park hopper ticket, you couldn't avoid paying for AK since in the past you could buy a three day park hopper. Now the base line is a 4 day....

 

[wtg2000]

Mr. J. Cricket - ROTFL! Thanks for my laugh of the day.

 

[raidermatt]

VERY nice Mr. Cricket....

larworth, similar to gcurling, you've accurately presented the "inner dilemma" I have over this plan. It's a heckuva lot better than nothin', and nothin' is all we've been getting (almost).

On one hand, I still believe in the "If you're going to do it, do it right" philosophy. But I'm not calling the shots here (much to the relief of many, I'm sure).

So I find myself criticizing the plan for its faults, but knowing full well its more ambitious than I had really expected from this regime.

WDW will never close MK once a week, once a month, or once a year short of imminent danger to the guest.

I take it the omission of the other three parks was not an accident?

It is rather interesting that Mr. Hill didn’t speak about the other part of Project Gemini. Despite his little language lesson in the article, Gemini means “the twins”, as in “two similar yet distinct halves”.

You know, it occured to me that it has not been Disney's SOP to add multiple attractions rather than replace in what is considered a "mature" park. This did bring on the thought that this would make 'Discoveryland' a more viable standalone park. But I didn't say anything because I guess I was hoping this part of the Gemini rumor had died, and I knew I'd get pounded for unfounded speculation.

But I guess it hasn't died.

AV, is it possible Jim's omission of this part of the plan was the requirement of whoever fed him the info?

For Disney to make additional money from splitting Epcot into two parks, one has to assume that those people who are paying for single day admissions will actually pay for single day admissions to both parks, or the new Epcot(s) would have to attract people who aren't currently buying an Epcot admission for Epcot as it exists today.

I'm sure the thought is that the new Discoveryland will have enough drawing power to bring more guests. Further, while not every purchaser of single-day tickets will be compelled to buy another, everyone that does is a bonus. This might not actually double the take, but it will increase it.

If WDW magically had a 5th gate, what is the likelihood they'd raise the price for park hoppers and AP's.

My guess is yes, they would raise them, though they might not do it on day one because of the PR nightmare from all of us whackos who know that 3 or 4 new attractions doesn't justify a whole new park.

Its also possible that 5-days could become the minimum hopper length.

Another possibility is to price WS like a water park or DQ. The risk there of course is that single-day tickets won't rise enough to offset the decreased price. But this might be enough to get current purchasers of one single-day Epcot ticket to go ahead and buy two.

I know, I know....its just a rumor.

 

[fabdisbabe]

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
I'm sorry, but I saw an open window and just couldn't help myself....

JC

Hey, Fab, I know you worked really hard on changing that art from color photo to b/w line map so it couldn't be traced...but can I use it for a funny joke on my discussion board?

Why, sure, JC! No problem, since you were polite and considerate enough to ask first!

Fab

 

[ohanafamily]

It would be a plus...I agree that they probably won't spend the $

JC, TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Funny!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

if it meant getting a horde of new attractions and updating a tired epcot i wouldnt mind the splitting of ws and fw. i would however be opposed to a full day admission to ws. maybe something like $70 for both parks. $50 for fw the park that is attraction heavy and have the option to tack on a second park for $20 more? i think that would be more apropos and help silence the uproar of disney followers.

it wouldnt matter either to me though as ive been an sp holder for a few years now.


excellente' mister j cricket! LOL LOL LOL

 

[Another Voice]

Wow – “you stole my stolen map!!!!! How unethical!!!!!”. Kinda funny.

Anyway – I’m not passing judgments on the economics of Discoveryland. Remember these are the same people who thought they’d make a fortune from California Adventure and Disney Studios Paris (and mocked DisneySea). I’d say they’re ability to judge the financial performance of their proposals must be considered suspect given that history.

And I think the deal with a separate gate World Showcase may have been its flexibility. Certainly it could be turned into a night-only reduced price park along the lines of a super-sized Pleasure Island. But most of the While You Were Out touches that are rumored were along the lines of the “additions” to Future World – minor items used to flesh it out to a “full day” park.

A lot of what you’re seeing is nothing but pent up frustration. You remember when you were a kid and every year about Halloween you’d start getting the “you can’t have it now, but wait until later and you can ask Santa for it” bit? Well for the last many years all these bright young creative types have worked their courage to ask step dad, only to be told “no – why don’t you ask Santa Sponsor for it”.

Well someone thought some geek from Seattle was going to be Santa for a while. All the lists came flooding out. It’s not even the case that all of this stuff was original meant for Epcot in the first place. But if you’ve got a Tarzan Vine Rider rollercoaster that just got shot down for the Magic Kingdom, getting it put into Epcot is the next best thing. I mean, no one thinks “discovery” & “future” and comes up with “hedge maze”.

Except for the name and whatever WDW can pry out of their operating budget, it will all come to nothing. Eisner isn’t going to be around in 2006 and he has absolutely no interest on spending a dime on something with a payout that he can’t collect on.

Still, it was a nice map. Wonder what it looked like in color…

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

when i saw the hedge maze the first thing that popped into my mind was beastly kingdom.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by fabdisbabe
Hey, Fab, I know you worked really hard on changing that art from color photo to b/w line map so it couldn't be traced...but can I use it for a funny joke on my discussion board?

Why, sure, JC! No problem, since you were polite and considerate enough to ask first!

Fab

I'll make you a deal:

1) You show me where you asked and got permission not only to post it, but to alter it from the original
2) Prove it's your copyrighted alteration by showing me the original
3) Prove you have suffered some sort of inherent damages resulting from my alteration

and I'll gladly remove it with a public apology

JC

 

[rpink58]

They keep mentioning how younger kids donot want to return to EPCOT. I am 42 and have been to WDW every year since 94 and EPCOT is the park my family visit the least. We never go more than once during our stay . If they beefed up the attractions and change it just a little every now and then , the curiosity would be peaked and you would want to go more often. It all goes back to spending a little money every year instead of waiting 20 years down the road and have to fork out an astronomical amount to make it a viable park again.