Jesus wasn't resurrected

[Fitswimmer]

BTW, I do not feel that I should have to defend or not-defend anyone. I have no idea what wvrevy's beliefs are. I do not have any idea if we share one iota of similarity and I really do not care whether s/he makes un-faithful people appear rude. S/he does not represent me, any more than the next 'unfaithful' person does.

Heck, should I go out and denounce anyone who shares the same ancestry as I do, simply because we are of the same people? No. They would no more represent me as wvrevy does.

I cannot help if you lump all non-christians together. I am not responsible for what 67% of the world says or does.

The only reason people have wondered, I think, about the Christians is because when a Christian acts like a complete jerk, it *does* reflect on other Christians.

Is it fair? Perhaps not, but it is reality.

I no more represent non-christians as I do former-christians. My words are my own and I do not claim to represent *any* group.

I don't represent all Christians either and they do not all speak for me. However, I have been told on this thread and in other places that if I as a Christian do not denounce the rudeness of other Christians then I am implying agreement to it. The same thing is going on with the Ann Coulter thread. If all those who call themselves conservatives don't race to that thread to denounce her statements, then they must agree completely with her.

If it's not fair, as you state above, then why does it continue to go on? Why can't we recognize that we are all individuals and one Christian does not speak for ALL Christians anymore than one Non-Christian speaks for ALL Non-Christians??

 

[magicmato]

I don't represent all Christians either and they do not all speak for me. However, I have been told on this thread and in other places that if I as a Christian do not denounce the rudeness of other Christians then I am implying agreement to it. The same thing is going on with the Ann Coulter thread. If all those who call themselves conservatives don't race to that thread to denounce her statements, then they must agree completely with her.

If it's not fair, as you state above, then why does it continue to go on? Why can't we recognize that we are all individuals and one Christian does not speak for ALL Christians anymore than one Non-Christian speaks for ALL Non-Christians??

The fallacy in your argument is that a Christian condemning people using Christian beliefs reflects on other Christians. I do not think you should be responsible for condemning every other Christian, but it is true that what other Christians do *does* reflect on the rest of the group.

I do not share my beliefs with every non-christian. I am no more like a Muslim or a Buddhist that I am like you. To state that all non-christians must denounce each other is just silly. What a muslim does has no bearing on me, unless it happens *to* me. Same with every other non-christian group. I am not responsible for them.

Your only responsibility for denouncing other Christians is that if you just sit back and let them treat other people poorly, people will wonder if you share that belief.

Do not denounce people, that is fine by me. But what christians do *does* affect how you as a group are viewed. Look at the priest/mollestation thing... look at the gay reverend thing... it casts all christians in a bad light, whether that is fair or not.

Christians are supposed to go forth and bring more people into the flock. They are supposed to share the word of god... so in essence they are selling the faith (bad analogy, sorry). One bad salesman can spoil the chance of reaching a potential 'customer' and you will never get that chance back.

 

[wvrevy]

Ok, what exactly was incorrect about my post before? Do you not have to suspend reason - in other words, stop thinking - in order to believe in the supernatural? Do you not have to take things on faith, rather than actually thinking them through? Do you not have to believe such things as Noah putting two of every animal on a boat and god sending bears to kill children that make fun of his people? And have any number of people right here on this thread not said that Jesus' teachings aren't important unless he was also the son of god?

There is nothing rational about religion. Period.

Now...would I say something like that to anybody in person? Of course not, unless we happen to be debating religion (which is basically what this thread has become). If you want to believe in the tooth fairy, be my guest. But don't pretend that it is at all a rational decision, because it simply isn't.

Does that mean I think all christians (or religious people of any stripe) are idiots incapable of thinking for themselves? Of course not. I do think most of them are incapable of even questioning their own belief systems. But that isn't due to any lack of intellect...just to conditioning. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that is the way I see it, and I see no reason to lie about it. It truly doesn't affect how I see people in the real world, as most everybody I know - including all of my extended family - are religious people. But on that one subject, I think they are completely irrational.

JMHO...

 

[Charade]

The fallacy in your argument is that a Christian condemning people using Christian beliefs reflects on other Christians. I do not think you should be responsible for condemning every other Christian, but it is true that what other Christians do *does* reflect on the rest of the group.

I do not share my beliefs with every non-christian. I am no more like a Muslim or a Buddhist that I am like you. To state that all non-christians must denounce each other is just silly. What a muslim does has no bearing on me, unless it happens *to* me. Same with every other non-christian group. I am not responsible for them.

Your only responsibility for denouncing other Christians is that if you just sit back and let them treat other people poorly, people will wonder if you share that belief.

Do not denounce people, that is fine by me. But what christians do *does* affect how you as a group are viewed. Look at the priest/mollestation thing... look at the gay reverend thing... it casts all christians in a bad light, whether that is fair or not.

Christians are supposed to go forth and bring more people into the flock. They are supposed to share the word of god... so in essence they are selling the faith (bad analogy, sorry). One bad salesman can spoil the chance of reaching a potential 'customer' and you will never get that chance back.

This applies to all groups with similar beliefs. Religious. Non-Religous. Republican. Democrat. Black. White. Conservative. Liberal. ETC...

One bad egg can ruin the whole carton.

But is seems certain groups are held to a different standard than the rest.

 

[Buckalew11]

The fallacy in your argument is that a Christian condemning people using Christian beliefs reflects on other Christians. I do not think you should be responsible for condemning every other Christian, but it is true that what other Christians do *does* reflect on the rest of the group.

I do not share my beliefs with every non-christian. I am no more like a Muslim or a Buddhist that I am like you. To state that all non-christians must denounce each other is just silly. What a muslim does has no bearing on me, unless it happens *to* me. Same with every other non-christian group. I am not responsible for them.

Your only responsibility for denouncing other Christians is that if you just sit back and let them treat other people poorly, people will wonder if you share that belief.

Do not denounce people, that is fine by me. But what christians do *does* affect how you as a group are viewed. Look at the priest/mollestation thing... look at the gay reverend thing... it casts all christians in a bad light, whether that is fair or not.

Christians are supposed to go forth and bring more people into the flock. They are supposed to share the word of god... so in essence they are selling the faith (bad analogy, sorry). One bad salesman can spoil the chance of reaching a potential 'customer' and you will never get that chance back.

I agree with what you are saying, except I do wonder why it is viewed that non-Christians have individual thoughts and Christians reflect on each other. Oh well. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, IMO.

Your thoughts as a non-Christian are your own. As Christians, Fitswimmers are his/hers and mine are mine. If someone wants to think badly of Fitswimmer because as a Christian, I believe in a more offensive to them way, that is their problem, not mine. Fitswimmer isn't responsible for my beliefs anymore than either of us are responsible for that preacher Fred Phelps (of whom I have very negative thoughts).

But as a Christian, you always hear how the church is full of hypocrites. And it is. And so is any place where humans gather. If there is a God who we answer to, that excuse is going to be very weak and lame. We are all accountable for our own selves. I will not answer for the priests who molested, the preacher who beat his wife, the SS teacher who sleeps around, the list goes on and on. I'll be accountable for Brenda and that, is a handful all by itself.

 

[Charade]

Ok, what exactly was incorrect about my post before? Do you not have to suspend reason - in other words, stop thinking - in order to believe in the supernatural? Do you not have to take things on faith, rather than actually thinking them through? Do you not have to believe such things as Noah putting two of every animal on a boat and god sending bears to kill children that make fun of his people? And have any number of people right here on this thread not said that Jesus' teachings aren't important unless he was also the son of god?

There is nothing rational about religion. Period.

Um. No. That's the whole point of religion. Obviously you don't get it.

 

[Fitswimmer]

By calling Christians irrational, you are most certainly saying that there is some sort of mental deficiency. I do a LOT of questioning about my Church and the behavior of those that call themselves Christian, that doesn't change how I feel about God.
My point is, I've taken Christians here to task for judgmental statements about non-Christians because I believe that such statements are uncalled for. I believe that we as Christians cannot judge others because that is a job for God, and if we believe in an omnipotent God we can't keep taking over His job. If it is wrong for Christians to judge Non-Christians, it should be just as wrong for Non-Christians to judge Christians.

As for my use of the term Non-Christian. JennyMominRI suggested the use of that term rather than Non-Believers, because everyone believes in something just not everyone believes in Christianity.

 

[magicmato]

I agree with what you are saying, except I do wonder why it is viewed that non-Christians have individual thoughts and Christians reflect on each other. Oh well. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, IMO.

Your thoughts as a non-Christian are your own. As Christians, Fitswimmers are his/hers and mine are mine. If someone wants to think badly of Fitswimmer because as a Christian, I believe in a more offensive to them way, that is their problem, not mine. Fitswimmer isn't responsible for my beliefs anymore than either of us are responsible for that preacher Fred Phelps (of whom I have very negative thoughts).

But as a Christian, you always here how the church is full of hypocrites. And it is. And so is any place where humans gather. If there is a God who we answer to, that excuse is going to be very weak and lame. We are all accountable for our own selves. I will not answer for the priests who molested, the preacher who beat his wife, the SS teacher who sleeps around, the list goes on and on. I'll be accountable for Brenda and that, is a handful all by itself.

Um... why does it surprise you that Christians are viewed as a group? I am not saying you are responsible for other christians. Please show me where I said that? But if someone goes forth shouting how they are Christian and offending a large percentage of people and you as a Christian who are in earshot of it and do not tell those being offended that that person is not representing you, how can you blame people from thinking it is not just one Christian's belief?

Why is it hard to understand that non-christians do NOT share any particular ideology or anything else, therefore they are more individualistic than a Christian. You all DO share beliefs, therefore it is easier to state you are more of a group than non-christians. Within the 67% of non-christian people in the world, there is not one central value or belief that is shared by all..

 

[wvrevy]

By calling Christians irrational, you are most certainly saying that there is some sort of mental deficiency.

Again, I disagree completely that it is a "mental deficiency". I have never said that christians are not as smart as non-christians, or that they are incapable of making a rational argument on an unrelated topic because they are Christian. I look at religious belief like a blindspot for otherwise rational people. It is not something about which you can come to a reasonable conclusion in favor of. You simply cannot rationalize god. In the end, you must set aside logic and reason and take things on faith.

If someone were saying that all christians were idiots, I would be the first to denounce their comments. So please, don't make it out like that is what I am doing. My point was that christians have a blind spot when it comes to their beliefs. They are unable to look at any evidence without the bias of their religion interfering with their rational thought process. But that only applies on discussions of their religion. On any other topic they are as capable or incapable as anybody else.

 

[cardaway]

What wvrevy posted is pretty rude, but given what we have seen from Christians in this thread, it's pretty tame in comparison.

As for speaking out about rude posts, as this thread proved earlier after jimmiej's and aquinas' posts, that hardly ever happens. In fact this same practice is pretty much why people like Jerry Falwell are still in business.

Why should one side speak up when the other almost always stays silent?
As the saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Um... why does it surprise you that Christians are viewed as a group? I am not saying you are responsible for other christians. Please show me where I said that? But if someone goes forth shouting how they are Christian and offending a large percentage of people and you as a Christian who are in earshot of it and do not tell those being offended that that person is not representing you, how can you blame people from thinking it is not just one Christian's belief?

Why is it hard to understand that non-christians do NOT share any particular ideology or anything else, therefore they are more individualistic than a Christian. You all DO share beliefs, therefore it is easier to state you are more of a group than non-christians. Within the 67% of non-christian people in the world, there is not one central value or belief that is shared by all..

Christians are actually not really that homogenic either. Even within a denomination, there can be vast differences in the way people live their faith. Our parish is very into social justice, we do a lot of work with the Interfaith food pantry and Habitat for Humanity, we've had groups going to New Orleans recently and have done work in Appalachia for years. However, we aren't as active in pro-life protests as some other local parishes. We have people that participate, but the bulk of our work is in other areas. I'm not even going to get into the major differences between denominations because that could go on for days and start a whole other argument about who is a "real" Christian and who isn't.

 

[magicmato]

Christians are actually not really that homogenic either. Even within a denomination, there can be vast differences in the way people live their faith. Our parish is very into social justice, we do a lot of work with the Interfaith food pantry and Habitat for Humanity, we've had groups going to New Orleans recently and have done work in Appalachia for years. However, we aren't as active in pro-life protests as some other local parishes. We have people that participate, but the bulk of our work is in other areas. I'm not even going to get into the major differences between denominations because that could go on for days and start a whole other argument about who is a "real" Christian and who isn't.

I am giving you the perception of someone who is non-christian. Of course you have awareness that non-christians would not have. You can choose to accept that this is how you are perceived or not.

 

[cardaway]

You can choose to accept that this is how you are perceived or not.

That's pretty much all that needs to be said right there.

If it bothers you maybe you should do somehting about it rather than make excuses or stay silent.

 

[Fitswimmer]

What wvrevy posted is pretty rude, but given what we have seen from Christians in this thread, it's pretty tame in comparison.

As for speaking out about rude posts, as this thread proved earlier after jimmiej's and aquinas' posts, that hardly ever happens. In fact this same practice is pretty much why people like Jerry Flawell are still in business.

Why should one side speak up when the other almost always stays silent?
As the saying goes... if you can't beat em, join em.

It seems to me that you have selectively ignored some of my posts on this thread. Perhaps that's why nobody else bothers anymore, since any post that does call out a Christian is going to get ignored anyway.

 

[Charade]

Again, I disagree completely that it is a "mental deficiency". I have never said that christians are not as smart as non-christians, or that they are incapable of making a rational argument on an unrelated topic because they are Christian. I look at religious belief like a blindspot for otherwise rational people. It is not something about which you can come to a reasonable conclusion in favor of. You simply cannot rationalize god. In the end, you must set aside logic and reason and take things on faith.

If someone were saying that all christians were idiots, I would be the first to denounce their comments. So please, don't make it out like that is what I am doing. My point was that christians have a blind spot when it comes to their beliefs. They are unable to look at any evidence without the bias of their religion interfering with their rational thought process. But that only applies on discussions of their religion. On any other topic they are as capable or incapable as anybody else.

Then what are your feelings about conservatives as to their ability to not understand (you've mentioned that several times in the past) the liberal way of participating in society? I do recall you agreeing with Kyle that conservatives have some sort of mental deficiency which is what makes them conservatives.

 

[Buckalew11]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Why does it surprise me? Maybe because I think we all do have individual thoughts and ideas about God. Honestly, if I went around telling everyone that became offended by a Christian that those weren't my beliefs too, that is all I'd get done. Obviously, Christians do not agree on many topics. After reading this thread, I see we all don't even agree to as why we are Christians. If we agreed on nothing else, I truly thought the death, burial and resurrection was a core belief we all held but maybe not, so...

Actually, the more I read a thread like this, the more I wonder why non-Christians aren't more confused about Christians beliefs. It certainly confuses me which is why I will not be held responsible for anyone's beliefs but my own. And I will not be walking around here calling people on every offensive comment. Not that I won't call somebody on it, but really, I won't be doing the Gomer Pyle thing on every thread.

I think that judging me for another christians comments on here is just too strange, that's all. That's MO of it. I know that some non-Christians think that I believe in fairy tales and some non-christians just wonder how I have faith in something I cannot see. I don't lump those 2 people together in any way, shape or form. I think that's just common sense and being respectful of the posters. Again, JMO. But if you want to lump all christians together, even though you see we all think and think differently about most of spiritual things, be my guest. That is something totally out of my control and if you don't see that, then, well, judge away.

 

[cardaway]

It seems to me that you have selectively ignored some of my posts on this thread. Perhaps that's why nobody else bothers anymore, since any post that does call out a Christian is going to get ignored anyway.

I have not ingored them, but they were overwhelmed by others continuing on despite your posts. If anybody was ignoring you it was your fellow Christians.

 

[Fitswimmer]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Why does it surprise me? Maybe because I think we all do have individual thoughts and ideas about God. Honestly, if I went around telling everyone that became offended by a Christian that those weren't my beliefs too, that is all I'd get done. Obviously, Christians do not agree on many topics. After reading this thread, I see we all don't even agree to as why we are Christians. If we agreed on nothing else, I truly thought the death, burial and resurrection was a core belief we all held but maybe not, so...

Actually, the more I read a thread like this, the more I wonder why non-Christians aren't more confused about Christians beliefs. It certainly confuses me which is why I will not be held responsible for anyone's beliefs but my own. And I will not be walking around here calling people on every offensive comment. Not that I won't call somebody on it, but really, I won't be doing the Gomer Pyle thing on every thread.

I think that judging me for another christians comments on here is just too strange, that's all. That's MO of it. I know that some non-Christians think that I believe in fairy tales and some non-christians just wonder how I have faith in something I cannot see. I don't lump those 2 people together in any way, shape or form. I think that's just common sense and being respectful of the posters. Again, JMO. But if you want to lump all christians together, even though you see we all think and think differently about most of spiritual things, be my guest. That is something totally out of my control and if you don't see that, then, well, judge away.

I'm with you. I'm worn out just from this thread alone. I don't believe that all Liberals speak with one voice, that all Conservatives speak with one voice, that all Christians speak with one voice or all Non-Christians speak with one voice. I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept for folks to grasp.

 

[Buckalew11]

I'm with you. I'm worn out just from this thread alone. I don't believe that all Liberals speak with one voice, that all Conservatives speak with one voice, that all Christians speak with one voice or all Non-Christians speak with one voice. I don't understand why that is such a difficult concept for folks to grasp.

I don't either. This thread wore me out too. So, I decided it was only wearing me out because I was letting it. Deciding to let people have their own thoughts (lumping or not lumping) is quite freeing, actually.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I have not ingored them, but they were overwhelmed by others continuing on despite your posts. If anybody was ignoring you it was your fellow Christians.

It certianly seems like you have, since you continue to beat the drum about the poor victimized non-Christians being rudely assaulted and nobody coming to their defense.

No matter how hard I've tried to promote the point that all Christians are not the same and do not speak with one voice, it has been continually ignored in favor of finding reasons to lump all of us together. It's easier that way, so I can see the appeal.