"It's simply gotten too big, too commercial, too regimented"

[Laketravis]

Fuzzy math - you aggregate one (DIS) and multiply the other (WDW).

1/2M members in total over the last 10 years of disboards existence. That's all members who have come or gone. Well, 16M visitors to the MK per year over that time is 160M. Now, 1/2M of those on the disboards is, as I said, less than 1%. Of the 1/2M, I see maybe 10 or 20 people who post MOST of the posts out here (hehe lately I've been one of them, but only cuz I'm excited that we just booked a new trip). There's probly a situation such that 20% of the disboard users have made 80% of the posts.

 

[MrInfinity]

Fuzzy math - you aggregate one (DIS) and multiply the other (WDW).

Um... no, that's what Andrew did. I said 16M guests will visit MK in a year. Andrew pointed out 1/2M members exist on Disboards ~over all time~. Well that's not a valid comparison. You either have to look at how many are actively posting this year and compare that to how many are actively going to WDW this year, or you have to look at how many joined the boards ever (however many years it was here) and look at DW visits during that same time.

 

[Andrew015]

We don't.

1/2M members in total over the last 10 years of disboards existence. That's all members who have come or gone. Well, 16M visitors to the MK per year over that time is 160M. Now, 1/2M of those on the disboards is, as I said, less than 1%. Of the 1/2M, I see maybe 10 or 20 people who post MOST of the posts out here (hehe lately I've been one of them, but only cuz I'm excited that we just booked a new trip). There's probly a situation such that 20% of the disboard users have made 80% of the posts.

Fair enough. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your math is in the ballpark of being correct. But I'll put it to you like this. If the 50% of active DISBoard members that dislike FP+ stopped going, would Disney feel it? While it might not move the needle significantly, I think it would be noticeable. In any event, my point is that you brush off us DISBoard members as a bunch of kooks who's viewpoints are irrelevant, and I think that couldn't be further from the truth. Again, I don't think you could find a better sample population to survey "all things Disney" if you tried.

Fair enough. But that's the reality. The system has changed, you can adapt or complain.

Correct, but it's not YOUR PLACE to tell me whether or not I should adapt or complain.

I don't. But I'm a problem solver, and I look at the changes, observe the new constraints, and figure out the best way to deal.

And I guess I'm one who views FP+ as having been a golden opportunity to make a great system even better, but unfortunately, that wasn't the outcome.

Really? So if you could have the Disney of 1984 vs the Disney of today, you would opt for the former?

I would absolutely, 100% take the management philosophy, customer service, innovation, and most importantly, dedication to continually improving their product of the early 1980's vs what we have today... seven days a week and twice on Sunday.

I like to use my smartphone, and was on it in 2012 even before FP+.

That's your prerogative. I'm tied to my smartphone 24/7 thanks to work. When I'm on vacation, I'd prefer that my smartphone be at the bottom of the Seven Seas Lagoon.

I still picked parks based on ADRs, not Fast Passes.

Obviously, if you have an ADR in one park, your FP's are going to be tied to that same park. If you don't have an ADR, then your FP's will still tie you to a given park, which wasn't previously the case with the Legacy system. You make it sound as if FP+ gives you more flexibility in that regard, and instead, it's absolutely a step backwards, as park hopping does not work well with the system. I understand that Disney is working to improve this, and my only hope is that they come up with a solution to improve this down the road.

Look at one of the top wishes... "bring SDFP+ to my smartphone to cut out the kiosk!" Hah. Even the worst haters of FP+ who argue it ties you to your phone, want it to go even more digital and more phone based! We subconsciously are saying bring more to our phone - but then argue on the surface how we'd rather visit a kiosk. Disney KNOWS we want more on our phone. SDFP+ will hit the phone eventually.

If going back to the legacy system were an option, that would be my first vote. Knowing that's not the case and that I have to live with FP+, my next preference would be to get me out of standing in long kiosk lines.

Remember the chicken and egg here. Disney is not implementing a system... which is then requiring people to be on their smartphone. Rather, Disney knows people are glued to their smartphone... so they are bringing FastPass to them in the preferred technology of today.

You make it seem like the consumers asked for FP+, smartphones and all. That is absolutely not the case. The legacy system was the best one of any theme park system anywhere in the world. Disney wasn't responding to "consumer demand" for a new system because the old one needed improvement. Rather, they crammed a half-baked version down our throats because of their failure to create new, innovative rides that would effectively spread out demand.

Let me ask you a question: If you had your choice between Disney spending a Billion Dollars on FP+, or spending a Billion Dollars on say StarWars Land or a major revamping of Future World, which would you choose? I don't think the survey results would show many people clamoring for FP+...

 

[Suvadoo]

I guess if I am unhappy with FP+, I should not be allowed to post on the boards, but I am allowed to express my opininion. Seriuosly Fuzzy , if you don't like what I post, please ignore it.

Thanks Andrew, you are very articulate in your posts and I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[mcd2745]

Compared to the other system, FP+ requires more planning than the legacy system, period. To argue otherwise is futile. Prior to FP+, I wasn't required to book anything in advance of my travel, nor was I required to be glued to my smartphone while on vacation. If that doesn't meet the definition of "more planning", I don't know what does. While this might not be a problem for you, for many, it takes the "relaxation" out of our vacations.

I would never argue that FP+ requires more planning than legacy FP. Because under either system, planning was/is never a requirement (in its most literal sense) at all.

Of course, some planning is certainly beneficial. And the more planning, the greater the benefits, but still not a requirement.

I approach it very much like fuzzylogic. The major planning to me usually is centered around ADRs and therefore happens at the 6-month mark...so basically deciding which park we would be in each day. This has been the case for a long time, and FP+ didn't change that at all. FP+ did add an additional amount of planning at the 60-day mark for me. Again, though, that is my choice and not a requirement. And there really isn't that much involved there. It's pretty much no-brainers what to choose and is just a matter of making sure any FP+ times do not conflict with ADRs.

 

[Laketravis]

DIS number would be unique registrations. Attendance number includes repeats.

16M annual * 10Y does not equal 160M unique visitors.

Um... no, that's what Andrew did. I said 16M guests will visit MK in a year. Andrew pointed out 1/2M members exist on Disboards ~over all time~. Well that's not a valid comparison. You either have to look at how many are actively posting this year and compare that to how many are actively going to WDW this year, or you have to look at how many joined the boards ever (however many years it was here) and look at DW visits during that same time.

 

[MrInfinity]

If the 50% of active DISBoard members that dislike FP+ stopped going, would Disney feel it?

I too will give you the benefit of the doubt to agree that 50/50 is about the split of Disboard opinions on FP+, but that's only because we are the commandos that use to be the 1% that got the most out of FP-.

I don't think Disney would feel it.

A) this is a forum, and while people like to throw up arms and say they won't go, that just doesn't happen in practice. Things change, time heals all wounds, the love of Disney remains, we have that grandkid or friend that mentions it and rekindles those childhood memories and people return.

B) I'm sure a tiny fraction are so put off that they stop going, or more likely, some ppl have just outgrown "going to a mobbed park and waiting in lines" and use FP+ as their surface reason for not going. They love Disney, but when it boils down, at some point we all get older and would prefer a beach in Mexico to a mob of kids.

C) Disney has forecasted, and planned for the guests who will go less.

In any event, my point is that you brush off us DISBoard members as a bunch of kooks who's viewpoints are irrelevant, and I think that couldn't be further from the truth. Again, I don't think you could find a better sample population to survey "all things Disney" if you tried.

I'm one of the "kooks". I'm out here on a Disney board a year before my trip. Go figure. But I disagree that we are a random sample of Disney guests. We are, by definition of being those out here seeking out advanced touring strategies, those who study it more than the average guest.

I would absolutely, 100% take the management philosophy, customer service, innovation, and most importantly, dedication to continually improving their product of the early 1980's vs what we have today... seven days a week and twice on Sunday.

I think this is a case of remembering the park thru a kids eyes.

That's your prerogative. I'm tied to my smartphone 24/7 thanks to work. When I'm on vacation, I'd prefer that my smartphone be at the bottom of the Seven Seas Lagoon.

Then do so! Pick your FP+'s from work one day, write them down on a slip of paper, stick it in your wallet, then go to the parks! Note when your FP return times are (just like you would have under FP-) and decide to use them or not.

Obviously, if you have an ADR in one park, your FP's are going to be tied to that same park. If you don't have an ADR, then your FP's will still tie you to a given park, which wasn't previously the case with the Legacy system.

This is a fair example. Some people leave the park they'll go to, to be decided up to that day. I never did that. We at least had a plan. If not an ADR at every park, an event or two plus an ADR would lock in several park days, then fitting in the other park days made for a relatively pre-chosen day plan for me.

I've never woken up at Disney World and decide which park we'd go to that day. I'm sure my parents didn't either. They had a plan. We'd go to MK this day, EC that day, River Country this day, and Sea World that day. They had a plan which more or less marked the days, they didn't just show up in Orlando and decide what to do even in the 80's.

Even so, from what I understand, you can still pick your park day-of if you want to. Unless you have some extremely high-demand event planned like an A&E meet and greet or a FP to the brand new first-in-30-years ride in Fantasyland, you can easily get fast passes to anything else on the day of. TSMM, RR, Soarin, TT, all the mountains have plenty of availability even to the day-of park chooser.

You make it sound as if FP+ gives you more flexibility in that regard, and instead, it's absolutely a step backwards, as park hopping does not work well with the system.

Not a big hopper, but I understand that FP+ is really good for an afternoon park.

You make it seem like the consumers asked for FP+, smartphones and all. That is absolutely not the case.

They may not have asked for it. But I didn't ever ask my bank for the option to deposit checks via a photo. Now look at that... I'm depositing checks via a photo and never visit the kiosks... er.. um.. ATM's any more.

Technology has a way of advancing. You can use it or you can be outdated quicker than you know. An active Dis'er should be focused on discussing how to make the tech work awesome for us. Not just bashing it over and over.

Let me ask you a question: If you had your choice between Disney spending a Billion Dollars on FP+, or spending a Billion Dollars on say StarWars Land or a major revamping of Future World, which would you choose? I don't think the survey results would show many people clamoring for FP+...

Not a realistic survey. If I ask my kids if they want a college education or to go to Disney World which would they pick. If I ask them do they want to go for ice cream or do some more homework what would they pick. Sometimes building for the future is costly, but must be done. So you do that, and you STILL put in a new Enchanted Forest, new Pandora, and new Star Wars land too. Which is what they're doing.

 

[MrInfinity]

I guess if I am unhappy with FP+, I should not be allowed to post on the boards, but I am allowed to express my opininion. Seriuosly Fuzzy , if you don't like what I post, please ignore it.

Thanks Andrew, you are very articulate in your posts and I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say.

You seem to take such offense at someone challenging your ways. I never once said you should not be allowed to post. I've always supported everyone's right to say anything. I enjoy the option to discuss w you, and wouldn't do so if I didn't want to.

What I don't see useful, is the complaining. This is the way it will be. FP- is history. You've voiced the discontent, so great. We get it. Yes, one who used to pull 10 FP- cannot get 10 FP+. Now you can continue to voice that every time someone suggests a good way to use FP+, or you can figure out a way to adapt yourself to work with the new technology that will not be going away, or you can not go, or you can just complain.

But if you wish to complain, and want me to respect your right to do so, then you should likewise respect my right to point out that despite what you complain about, it is perfectly possible to have a blast at WDW with FP+. You just have to figure out the new strategies, like we all did with FP- at one time.

 

[mcd2745]

DIS number would be unique registrations. Attendance number includes repeats.

16M annual * 10Y does not equal 160M unique visitors.

True. But how many of the 500k registrations are active, and how many have been inactive for years? Likewise, how many active users only comment on the cruise boards, because that's they only Disney vacations they take? Same thing for Disneyland. Either way, it's impossible to use the DIS membership as a true barometer of the of the prevailing sentiment of all WDW visitors.

What is generally accepted as true of human nature is that those who are anti-whatever will be more vocal than anyone in the pro-whatever crowd. I've certainly observed that here on the DIS - particularly on the "Theme Parks" board. I rarely visit that corner of the DIS anymore because it seemed the same small group of posters (hardly representative of any kind of majority) injected a FP+-bashing rant into every thread.

 

[Andrew015]

I would never argue that FP+ requires more planning than legacy FP. Because under either system, planning was/is never a requirement (in its most literal sense) at all.

Of course you choose whether or not to utilize either system. That's not the argument. The point is that in order to take advantage of either system to the fullest, one requires advanced planning and the other does not. I'd prefer to keep the one that "does not".

The major planning to me usually is centered around ADRs and therefore happens at the 6-month mark...so basically deciding which park we would be in each day. This has been the case for a long time, and FP+ didn't change that at all. FP+ did add an additional amount of planning at the 60-day mark for me.

This argument assumes that everyone makes at least one ADR per day. That is not the case for me, nor is it the case for a significant % of Disney guests. Many, many people choose quick service, "off site", or to cook in their rooms (DVC). I miss the flexibility of being able to wake up and decide whether or not it was going to be a MK day or an EPCOT day. Now, I am forced to plot that out months in advance if I want to utilize the new system, unless I want to be relegated to 120 minute + standby lines.

 

[Teamubr]

Get used to it, adapt, and find a way

You do realize you're asking for their brain to explode?

Fascinating conversation highlighting people that resist change at any cost vs those that realize everything changes so why not figure out how to take advantage of the change.

Put me in the later category.

j

 

[Little c Travel]

FP+ is far from a perfect system, however as started previously we enjoyed it both times we used. I think once they finally get all of the infrastructure systems stabilized (FP+, dinning, paying, hotel, etc.) and running in a fashion that most people can accept then we will really start to see them rolling out cool features. This system has been designed to make the attractions and environments more interactive. Once they start rolling out the bells and whistles I think people will start to get excited and forget about the other complaints.

The New College Football Hall of Fame in Atlanta is doing amazing things with the same RFID technology.

When you walk into the atrium the football helmet of your favorite school lights up and as you walk past different displays they change to show you content about your favorite university. It is super cool and makes for a unique experience for everyone.

 

[mcd2745]

This argument assumes that everyone makes at least one ADR per day. That is not the case for me, nor is it the case for a significant % of Disney guests. Many, many people choose quick service, "off site", or to cook in their rooms (DVC). I miss the flexibility of being able to wake up and decide whether or not it was going to be a MK day or an EPCOT day. Now, I am forced to plot that out months in advance if I want to utilize the new system, unless I want to be relegated to 120 minute + standby lines.

I never assumed everyone made ADRs every day. I simply said that was the case for me. Speaking of ADRs though, I think it provides a good parallel. I've stated a number of times how much I dislike the 180-day. I do think it's kind of ridiculous and I firmly believe it was the #1 reason there were so many problems with no-shows that lead them to add the $10 fee and credit card guaranteees. However, at the end of the day, as much as I don't like it, I accept that this is the policy and I have to either get onboard and adapt to it if I want to get the most out of our trip...or be left at the station (with no place other than Marakkesh to eat).

 

[Andrew015]

I don't think Disney would feel it. this is a forum, and while people like to throw up arms and say they won't go, that just doesn't happen in practice.

I can tell you, it absolutely does happen in practice. Two of my "Disney" co-workers are embarking on trips to their respective Orlando timeshares over the Christmas holiday. When asking about both of their Disney plans, I was surprised to learn that one wasn't visiting Disney, and would rather give Universal a crack. The other would be dropping his teenage kids off at the gates, and had no desire to enter the parks. Take a guess at the primary driver for both decisions: FP+. They're not "DISBoard member crazy" like me, either.

Things change, time heals all wounds, the love of Disney remains, we have that grandkid or friend that mentions it and rekindles those childhood memories and people return.

A minute ago, you got done telling me that you don't have rose-colored blinders on, and then you come at me with "time heals all wounds" and that the "love of Disney remains". Why do we have to settle for "wounds" that will heal? Why is it unrealistic to expect Disney to develop a system that is BETTER than the outgoing one that it is replacing?

At some point in time, I'm going to reach a breaking point that will require more than the "love of Disney" to get me to return. $100 per day admission and climbing, $400 per night hotel rooms and climbing, declining food quality that is double the price of comparable restaurants found outside of the main gate, the lack of any significant new rides in YEARS (don't tell me that NFL, which took almost 5 years to come to fruition offers anything "significant"), and to top it off, a new ride system that takes the spontaneity out of my vacations.... Eventually, I'm going to need more than towels shaped like Mickey ears on my bed to get me back to Lake Buena Vista. Thankfully, I'm not quite there, yet.

Disney has forecasted, and planned for the guests who will go less.

I'm curious to know the logic behind this statement. Construction of Avatarland, Disney Springs, more DVC coming online in 2015 and major changes to HS are in the works shows that Disney is forecasting for anything but "guests who will go less". I'm hanging my hat that some of these projects will be the very things I'm griping about in the above paragraph to keep me coming back, but if the outcome is anything like NFL, I better start looking at other timeshares.

I think this is a case of remembering the park thru a kids eyes.

It's a case of reality. Today's management announces "new ride, coming soon", markets the hell out of it and drags out the construction for years. Case in point, NFL (5 years), Avatarland (4 years) Frozen (2 years), etc. Old management of the 1980's: Builds the entire park of EPCOTin three years. Tell me which one you'd really rather have running the show today.

I've never woken up at Disney World and decide which park we'd go to that day. I'm sure my parents didn't either. They had a plan. We'd go to MK this day, EC that day, River Country this day, and Sea World that day. They had a plan which more or less marked the days, they didn't just show up in Orlando and decide what to do even in the 80's.

Again, that's great for you and your parents. But that's not how my parents did Disney, nor is that how I did Disney prior to FP+. When it comes to vacation planning, you're either an advanced planner or you're not (which is why the 50/50 split is not surprising to me in the least). Neither is right or wrong, but with FP+, you're forced to become a planner.

They may not have asked for it. But I didn't ever ask my bank for the option to deposit checks via a photo. Now look at that... I'm depositing checks via a photo and never visit the kiosks... er.. um.. ATM's any more. Technology has a way of advancing. You can use it or you can be outdated quicker than you know. An active Dis'er should be focused on discussing how to make the tech work awesome for us. Not just bashing it over and over.

The key difference being, Online/Mobile banking has no drawbacks (unless you're a bank teller). It's a significant advancement that changed the way people bank. FP+ is NOT a significant advancement. It gives me nothing more than I previously had, with the exception that it requires advanced planning and makes my overall vacation experience worse. I'm glad that you and 50% of the Disney-going population enjoy it. I feel sorry for those of us who think it's a steaming pile.

Not a realistic survey. If I ask my kids if they want a college education or to go to Disney World which would they pick. If I ask them do they want to go for ice cream or do some more homework what would they pick. Sometimes building for the future is costly, but must be done.

It absolutely is a valid comparison. The crux of the system is designed to "even the load" and spread things out amongst the park. If management was focused on Imagineering and developing new, innovative rides that people actually want to experience (i.e. take a hint from the competitor down I4), this would have accomplished the same goal.

So you do that, and you STILL put in a new Enchanted Forest, new Pandora, and new Star Wars land too. Which is what they're doing.

And we can experience all of this by, say.... 2022? Disney is in full-blown reaction mode to what is happening at Universal, because they have been busy building new, innovative rides that people actually want to experience - not a complex, buggy system for following guests movements and tracking their spending habits. Had Disney's focus been similar to that of Universal's, FP+ wouldn't have even been necessary.

 

[MrInfinity]

I can tell you, it absolutely does happen in practice. Two of my "Disney" co-workers are embarking on trips to their respective Orlando timeshares over the Christmas holiday. When asking about both of their Disney plans, I was surprised to learn that one wasn't visiting Disney, and would rather give Universal a crack. The other would be dropping his teenage kids off at the gates, and had no desire to enter the parks. Take a guess at the primary driver for both decisions: FP+. They're not "DISBoard member crazy" like me, either.

That, or they're just getting older.

People changing affects what they want to do w their time and vacation money. Not a queuing system.

I'm a perfect example even. I'm a roller coaster aficionado. I've gone to Cedar Point, most of the Six Flags, Magic Mtn when I lived in Cali, etc. When I was a kid, I could hang out at SF all day. As an adult I'd go and have fun... now as an older adult I notice I want to go a little less. Yes I'd have fun going, and I'll surely try the new Goliath, but I have no desire to ride it 10 times. My DS12? He'd be happy to get in line all day long, over and over. Once a year, I'd be happy to go too. 5 times a year? I'd be happy to drop him off for 4 of them and get some other stuff done. People evolve. The theme park is just as fun as ever, I'm just older.

Why is it unrealistic to expect Disney to develop a system that is BETTER than the outgoing one that it is replacing?

Because there is no system that will get you on 10 rides via FP any more. That only worked because it had an abysmal usage rate among most guests, allowing a few guests to maximize it. Any new system would be targeted at improving the experience for most guests not those who used to get on more than everyone else. There is no new system that could do this.

At some point in time, I'm going to reach a breaking point that will require more than the "love of Disney" to get me to return. $100 per day admission and climbing, $400 per night hotel rooms and climbing, declining food quality that is double the price of comparable restaurants found outside of the main gate, the lack of any significant new rides in YEARS (don't tell me that NFL, which took almost 5 years to come to fruition offers anything "significant"), and to top it off, a new ride system that takes the spontaneity out of my vacations.... Eventually, I'm going to need more than towels shaped like Mickey ears on my bed to get me back to Lake Buena Vista. Thankfully, I'm not quite there, yet.

Good!

I'm curious to know the logic behind this statement. Construction of Avatarland, Disney Springs, more DVC coming online in 2015 and major changes to HS are in the works shows that Disney is forecasting for anything but "guests who will go less".

That statement is saying Disney has master forecasters, and they have budgeted for the number of new guests they expect, the number of return guests they expect, and the number of aging visitors that will wane over time. Maybe you think they're wrong. But my money would be on the guys that built a $150B company, not the random guy on the internet claiming a paper system is better than a digital one because he could get on more rides than the average guest.

It's a case of reality. Today's management announces "new ride, coming soon", markets the hell out of it and drags out the construction for years. Case in point, NFL (5 years), Avatarland (4 years) Frozen (2 years), etc. Old management of the 1980's: Builds the entire park of EPCOTin three years. Tell me which one you'd really rather have running the show today.

Fine, but this is so arbitrary. I'd rather have superman running things... but lamenting over things that are not ours to control is moot. I'm happy w the current management, we had a blast on our trip, we love the recent movies, and they say if you truly value a company's product you should buy into the company, so I do that too.

with FP+, you're forced to become a planner.

Still don't see it. Nobody is forcing you. You can just show up and pull FPs same day like always.

I feel sorry for those of us who think it's a steaming pile.

Fair enough. You don't have to like it. But if you want to go to WDW, you have to learn to work with it, or be behind the curve. My point in writing in the first place (I think) started from the mention that people just keep complaining. That complaining is non-value-added. We could be discussing how to tour better given FP+, but instead we are discussing why you hate it so much. Eh.

If management was focused on Imagineering and developing new, innovative rides that people actually want to experience (i.e. take a hint from the competitor down I4), this would have accomplished the same goal.

Uni builds one ride and Disney lovers on the disboards high-five them. Disney builds 4 new LANDS and they claim Uni one-upped them... Yeah.

And we can experience all of this by, say.... 2022? Disney is in full-blown reaction mode to what is happening at Universal, because they have been busy building new, innovative rides that people actually want to experience

Heh. See above note.

If Uni was so great, you'd be over at one of their boards, not here. You know it. Uni is a rides park, period. They build rides cuz if they don't, they die. Disney is a vacation resort. Different focus.

I really have nothing against Uni, and we plan to go sometime. That is not because they are doing things better, but because as our kids get bigger, they will appreciate the roller coasters more than the Tiki Room and Anna & Elsa. But I suspect, like Six Flags, and given Uni can't give away a 3rd-day-free ticket for free (I get these offers all the time) Uni still misses the vacation crowd. It is just not their focus. They are an overflow park for Disney visitors and a pre-teens park for locals and visiting day-passers.

We were going to go this time (Dec 2015) but we got such a good deal on the Poly and the LEGOLAND Hotel is just opening, so Uni got nixed. Mainly cuz Disney and LEGOLAND is something we can only do in Florida, but Uni-type rides I have right here at home. We'll get them on the next trip when my youngest has outgrown LEGOLAND and I'm sure it will be a blast!

 

[Suvadoo]

You seem to take such offense at someone challenging your ways. I never once said you should not be allowed to post. I've always supported everyone's right to say anything. I enjoy the option to discuss w you, and wouldn't do so if I didn't want to.

What I don't see useful, is the complaining. This is the way it will be. FP- is history. You've voiced the discontent, so great. We get it. Yes, one who used to pull 10 FP- cannot get 10 FP+. Now you can continue to voice that every time someone suggests a good way to use FP+, or you can figure out a way to adapt yourself to work with the new technology that will not be going away, or you can not go, or you can just complain.

But if you wish to complain, and want me to respect your right to do so, then you should likewise respect my right to point out that despite what you complain about, it is perfectly possible to have a blast at WDW with FP+. You just have to figure out the new strategies, like we all did with FP- at one time.

You are presuming that I pulled 10 FP's per day, but this is not true. You make an awful lot of assumptions about the reasons people don't like FP+ , have you ever thought that maybe it wasn't tied to the legacy system?

In my case, I used maybe 2 FP's per day max. I was able to arrive to the parks at rope drop and get on the most popular attractions first thing for example Peter Pan or Space Mountain. Now when I arrive a rope drop there's already a FP+ line for those attractions. Later in the day, after the major attractions I would go on HM or POC with maybe a 10-20 minute SB wait. Now with FP+, SB wait has increased because they've added FP+ to these rides. So no, I was not a FP uber user.

You then suggest that people who don't want to use their phones in the park don't have to, but what you neglect to mention is that Disney has developed this new little habit of magically cancelling FP+ reservations and the only way you are notified is through your smart phone.

I know you are confident that FP+ is here to stay, but I don't think so, for the simple reason that it is too expensive to maintain. Most guests are first time visitors or don't come to WDW often enough to understand how FP+ works, so educating guests about how the system works will not get easier. I believe the rest of MDE will remain, but FP+ won't.

But we shall see what happens.

 

[Laketravis]

Uni still misses the vacation crowd. It is just not their focus. They are an overflow park for Disney visitors and a pre-teens park for locals and visiting day-passers.

We are leaving for Uni in three weeks, going to spend the week of New Year's there. Even though we have WDW AP's, we won't be setting foot at WDW. Not even once.

You make a lot of macro assumptions that then lead to "fuzzy" logic.

 

[MrInfinity]

We are leaving for Uni in three weeks, going to spend the week of New Year's there. Even though we have WDW AP's, we won't be setting foot at WDW. Not even once.

You just got back from Disney World. (enjoyed your trip reports btw). So you're not going "in lieu of" Disney but "in addition to".

 

[MrInfinity]

You make an awful lot of assumptions about the reasons people don't like FP+

No I read them here. Why would I want to make up reasons that other ppl don't like something?

In my case, I used maybe 2 FP's per day max. I was able to arrive to the parks at rope drop and get on the most popular attractions first thing for example Peter Pan or Space Mountain. Now when I arrive a rope drop there's already a FP+ line for those attractions. Later in the day, after the major attractions I would go on HM or POC with maybe a 10-20 minute SB wait. Now with FP+, SB wait has increased because they've added FP+ to these rides.

Here, we'll differ. If you used 2 FP-, I'm sure that you could get the same experience or better using FP+. I do at least, and we're not all that. We don't stay late, have 4 kids, and are often dealing w parking strollers and getting snacks, so we're not power commandos any more. POC / HM with 10-20 min SB wait? I dunno... when I was there in 2012 HM was consistently 40 min. But you could also look for times that it was 10 min like early or late or during the parades. In 2014 we got on those same rides in consistently, I'd say, 15 min waits every time we rode them. Once we went literally thru the line, right into the elevator, then right up to the turnstyle!

You then suggest that people who don't want to use their phones in the park don't have to, but what you neglect to mention is that Disney has developed this new little habit of magically cancelling FP+ reservations and the only way you are notified is through your smart phone.

Sure ppl may get things cancelled, but they are the occasion and not the norm. Just like you'd keep your phone with you in case there was a problem at home, you'll have it with you no matter what to deal with "1st world problems" like this. Or at a bare minimum, you and your SO would keep your phones so you could find each other if you split up, so it's not like you're going to go phone-less. (If you do, that's really cool and I envy you doing that, but I couldn't imagine trying to find someone if you split up to go on different rides without your phone.)

I know you are confident that FP+ is here to stay, but I don't think so, for the simple reason that it is too expensive to maintain.

Yeah, just have to see what develops.

 

[Andrew015]

That, or they're just getting older.

Actually, their exact words explaining why they were avoiding Disney contained "FP+" as the primary portion of their response. The one family has kids that are 7 and 9, prime "Disney Age".

That only worked because it had an abysmal usage rate among most guests, allowing a few guests to maximize it.

Please share with me your source on this, because I don't believe it.

That statement is saying Disney has master forecasters, and they have budgeted for the number of new guests they expect, the number of return guests they expect, and the number of aging visitors that will wane over time. Maybe you think they're wrong. But my money would be on the guys that built a $150B company, not the random guy on the internet claiming a paper system is better than a digital one because he could get on more rides than the average guest.

I've never claimed to be an expert in forecasting anything. You're the one who stated something about "guests who will go less", and I believe I misunderstood what you were intending to say. It's clear now.

Fine, but this is so arbitrary. I'd rather have superman running things... but lamenting over things that are not ours to control is moot. I'm happy w the current management, we had a blast on our trip, we love the recent movies, and they say if you truly value a company's product you should buy into the company, so I do that too.

How is this arbitrary? Disney World was founded and thrived on the notion of delivering an innovative guest experience. In 1971, there was nothing else like it in the world with the exception of DL as a close second. In the 1980's, they gave us EPCOT, which again, is unlike any other park in the world. In recent years, we have seen nothing but failed remakes of existing rides (think Journey to Imagination) and Bibity Bopity Boutiques crop up everywhere. When they finally decided to make a true expansion, which took over 5 years to complete, it delivered a 70 second kiddie roller coaster and a well-themed restaurant. I'm not lamenting over anything.... You're the one who asked for the comparison between the Disney World of 1980 and the Disney World of Today, and again, I gave you an honest answer with FACTS. Recent movies have nothing to do with the question that you posed, as it pertained specifically to the parks.

Still don't see it. Nobody is forcing you. You can just show up and pull FPs same day like always.

Yeah, for rides that you can walk on regardless. On my last visit to EPCOT, I had terrible success in getting same-day FP's for Soarin' or TT. I've heard both good and bad experiences with this, and my luck in getting headliner attractions same-day has been ~30% successful.

Fair enough. You don't have to like it. But if you want to go to WDW, you have to learn to work with it, or be behind the curve.

Look, with all due respect, I don't need you or anyone else telling me how I need to react to / deal with FP+, or anything else for that matter. As I have already stated multiple times within this thread alone, I know that FP+ is not going anywhere anytime soon. It doesn't mean that I have to like it. It is one of the many aspects of a WDW vacation, and unfortunately in my opinion, it's one that has changed for the worse. For me, it's not enough of a deal-breaker to stop my annual trips. For others like my co-workers, it is. But to say "it's not worth complaining about" is absurd.

My point in writing in the first place (I think) started from the mention that people just keep complaining. That complaining is non-value-added. We could be discussing how to tour better given FP+, but instead we are discussing why you hate it so much. Eh.

This is where I feel things get lost in translation. You feel that complaining is non-value added. I believe that it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for companies to understand how their products are perceived in the marketplace, and to react and make necessary changes in order to make improvements. This "complaining" is what has gotten additional FP's after the first three. It is also this "complaining" that is going to help with the continued development of FP's for park hopping, etc. If you just "suck it up" and deal with a crappy system, how do you ever expect anything to be changed for the better? You have already admitted that ~50% of the Disney-going population may feel that FP+ is lacking. Don't you think that is an alarmingly high number of guests that are unsatisfied with the new system that warrants some discussion other than "suck it up and deal with it"? Keep in mind, contrasting viewpoints are the very essence of what makes a good forum like this tick...

Uni builds one ride and Disney lovers on the disboards high-five them. Disney builds 4 new LANDS and they claim Uni one-upped them... Yeah.

Again, over what period of time? Only one of those lands has come to fruition, and it is an absolute bust at best. Another hasn't even officially been announced after years of rumors and speculations. The other one is still years away, provided that everything goes according to schedule and isn't delayed. Why is it that Universal can churn out two incredibly-successful HP worlds like clockwork, and Disney takes almost two years to convert an existing ride into another?

If Uni was so great, you'd be over at one of their boards, not here. You know it. Uni is a rides park, period. They build rides cuz if they don't, they die. Disney is a vacation resort. Different focus.

I've never been to Universal and have no interest in going. That doesn't mean I'm incapable of making intelligent commentary on their management philosophy and corresponding success as a result of said philosophy. Their gain in market share is undeniable, and I think it will only bring good things for both companies.