Is this math problem 3rd grade appropriate?

[SmallWorld71]

At nearly every grade level in Kentucky, Common Core pushes down content to younger students. For example, in math, the order of operations (Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction) used to be covered late in the year in sixth grade; under the Common Core State Standards, fifth graders start with it on day one.

While I despise standardized testing and haven't made up my mind about the CC, these threads on the DIS have really opened my eyes to the wide disparity amongst the schools in the U.S. and why the CC was started in the first place.

I asked my DD10 (in fifth grade, public school) if she knew what the order of operations was. She said, "You mean Pemdas?" and then proceeded to tell me what it was and how to use it. I asked her when she learned it and she said last year. (4th grade)

I know this is a small example, but I am seeing these examples all over the boards. No wonder we are hearing so many complaints from some areas and the CC is just a blip in others.

 

[nugov2]

While I despise standardized testing and haven't made up my mind about the CC, these threads on the DIS have really opened my eyes to the wide disparity amongst the schools in the U.S. and why the CC was started in the first place.

I asked my DD10 (in fifth grade, public school) if she knew what the order of operations was. She said, "You mean Pemdas?" and then proceeded to tell me what it was and how to use it. I asked her when she learned it and she said last year. (4th grade)

I know this is a small example, but I am seeing these examples all over the boards. No wonder we are hearing so many complaints from some areas and the CC is just a blip in others.

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally...that is forever in my brain LOL

 

[SmallWorld71]

I think the question of how students handle kids with disabilities, is an incredibly important one. When I started teaching, in the city I live in, kids with disabilities were exempted from everything. I can tell you so many stories of students of mine who spent their days before they got to me coloring, or cutting and pasting, or generally being ignored. Kids shut down from that too, because kids need stimulation and challenge. On the other hand, in those days as a special educator, I had enormous freedom in what and how I taught. Very little was dictated to me, and so I could tailor my instruction to exactly what kids need.

Then NCLB came along and the pendulum swung the other way. Suddenly, the only thing that mattered was "grade level standards". If third grade was multiplication, and you had a child who couldn't count, well they worked on multiplication anyway. The other day, I was asked to consult on an IEP from a student not at our school. This was a high schooler who was working on very basic level math. During testing, he needed to count out manipulatives to add two numbers under 10. But his IEP was full of crazy stuff like "given a page of algebraic problems, will circle the ones that show the distributive property". This was a kid who needed to learn how to count money, not to identify properties of algebra problems he couldn't solve.

Figuring out the middle ground is going to be crucial, whatever the standards. While, for some kids, the old standards might have been accessible while the CC one aren't, that's a very small slice of kids. There are also plenty of kids for whom neither are accessible, and other kids with disabilities who will be able to reach the new standards too with the right structure and support. With or without the CC standards, states need to figure out how to handle students who need substantially modified curriculum and expectations, because right now there are too many heartbreaking stories.

However, the solution isn't to lower the standards to the level of students with disabilities. It's to figure out ways to bring as many students with disabilities up to the level of the standards as possible, and to develop systems for modifying standards when appropriate.

How very logical of you.

 

[sam_gordon]

I think the question of how students handle kids with disabilities, is an incredibly important one. When I started teaching, in the city I live in, kids with disabilities were exempted from everything. I can tell you so many stories of students of mine who spent their days before they got to me coloring, or cutting and pasting, or generally being ignored. Kids shut down from that too, because kids need stimulation and challenge. On the other hand, in those days as a special educator, I had enormous freedom in what and how I taught. Very little was dictated to me, and so I could tailor my instruction to exactly what kids need.

Then NCLB came along and the pendulum swung the other way. Suddenly, the only thing that mattered was "grade level standards". If third grade was multiplication, and you had a child who couldn't count, well they worked on multiplication anyway. The other day, I was asked to consult on an IEP from a student not at our school. This was a high schooler who was working on very basic level math. During testing, he needed to count out manipulatives to add two numbers under 10. But his IEP was full of crazy stuff like "given a page of algebraic problems, will circle the ones that show the distributive property". This was a kid who needed to learn how to count money, not to identify properties of algebra problems he couldn't solve.

Figuring out the middle ground is going to be crucial, whatever the standards. While, for some kids, the old standards might have been accessible while the CC one aren't, that's a very small slice of kids. There are also plenty of kids for whom neither are accessible, and other kids with disabilities who will be able to reach the new standards too with the right structure and support. With or without the CC standards, states need to figure out how to handle students who need substantially modified curriculum and expectations, because right now there are too many heartbreaking stories.

However, the solution isn't to lower the standards to the level of students with disabilities. It's to figure out ways to bring as many students with disabilities up to the level of the standards as possible, and to develop systems for modifying standards when appropriate.

How very well said.

 

[castleview]

Then it is your job to make sure your son understands the concept. You are also your child's teacher.

My questions for Ali would be- What are you as a parent doing to help build her confidence in school and other social settings? Are you being her teacher at night and sitting with her while she does her homework, (guide her and help her understand)?

I know a few parents that spend about 3.5 hours a night helping and teaching their children while they do homework. These children struggle with concepts, but with the help of parents they are finding confidence and success.

That is what these parents do as well. They do the homework and then they do extra problems. The next night mom or dad quizzes the child on the homework from yesterday and then start the new homework.

I don't think you realize how uppity you are sounding. My daughters are both in advanced math and have high averages. I obviously can get this parenting thing right. My son is struggling in math and I can tell you the difference in the way he was taught as opposed to how the girls were taught. There was no minute math with him on a daily basis and there was very little time spent on each concept as far as I'm concerned. I can flashcard him as much as I want, but the fact is he is exhausted from feeling so lost at school and it can be very painful trying to get through to him. DH and I spend far more time going over his homework with him than we ever did when our girls were this age. Sometimes things just go this way. He just got his benchmark scores back and while he was below average his DRA was high. My teacher friends have told me that means he's reading at a level expect by the end of fourth grade (he is in third grade). Care to keep telling me I'm not doing my job?

On the other hand, in those days as a special educator, I had enormous freedom in what and how I taught. Very little was dictated to me, and so I could tailor my instruction to exactly what kids need.

You just pointed out what I believe is a huge problem and that is that the teacher has NO freedom to do what they know how. My kids' teachers are heavily weighed down by data collection and questionable approaches to teaching…not to mention being weighed down by having kids in a class that are not up to the level of the class.

Then NCLB came along and the pendulum swung the other way. Suddenly, the only thing that mattered was "grade level standards". If third grade was multiplication, and you had a child who couldn't count, well they worked on multiplication anyway.

You are not adding (though maybe you did in previous words) that the kids who were already at grade level standards were being ignored and not being challenged at all. Personally, I think NCLB screwed things up enough so that CC seems impossible for kids it normally wouldn't.

Figuring out the middle ground is going to be crucial, whatever the standards. While, for some kids, the old standards might have been accessible while the CC one aren't, that's a very small slice of kids. There are also plenty of kids for whom neither are accessible, and other kids with disabilities who will be able to reach the new standards too with the right structure and support. With or without the CC standards, states need to figure out how to handle students who need substantially modified curriculum and expectations, because right now there are too many heartbreaking stories.

Reaching the middle ground has always been a challenge in education. But from what I've seen, this latest thing (and CC is involved) is turning off kids that would normally be in the middle. Very dangerous. My son does not have a disability (and believe me, I have wondered). He's a good creative student who I believe was given a math curriculum without a particular direction or goal. I am far from the only parent or teacher in this state that thinks early elementary schoolers in the past few years have been shortchanged on good math foundations. I'm trying to and will keep trying to get that foundation.

However, the solution isn't to lower the standards to the level of students with disabilities. It's to figure out ways to bring as many students with disabilities up to the level of the standards as possible, and to develop systems for modifying standards when appropriate.

All students with disabilities? I ask that because I've seen very low functioning, low IQ kids put into high school science classes and that's just not realistic.

 

[castleview]

While I despise standardized testing and haven't made up my mind about the CC, these threads on the DIS have really opened my eyes to the wide disparity amongst the schools in the U.S. and why the CC was started in the first place.

I asked my DD10 (in fifth grade, public school) if she knew what the order of operations was. She said, "You mean Pemdas?" and then proceeded to tell me what it was and how to use it. I asked her when she learned it and she said last year. (4th grade)

I know this is a small example, but I am seeing these examples all over the boards. No wonder we are hearing so many complaints from some areas and the CC is just a blip in others.

My kids know that too…same district as my son having problems. Did you ever think that maybe the federal interference that has happened because some states weren't up to par were now hurting schools that were doing quite well? Did you ever think that NCLB's intention was to make it look like high performing schools were doing terrible - yep even nugov2's amazing school would look awful by those standards because if the school scored a 98 one year and a 96 the next year, it would be considered failing.

Common Core is being pushed by people looking to make money off the "woes" of public education.

 

[castleview]

But I ask yet again, is this CC's fault or your districts fault for implementing it in such a way that is so narrow-minded that they are not even doing it right for the student's that are not on IEPs. I am just so astounded b/c honestly anyone I talk to has yet to have an issue in this area(not even just my school district). I truly believe this has brought to light how many sub par administrators and teacher we have in this country and the serious issues with education in America. I do agree this new implementation should be rolled out in a way that older students don't have such a gap from where they were to where they should be, but for the younger grades I think if implemented properly the students will do well.

If my child was saying they were stupid and don't send me to school, I would find what the real problem was. If it was the district was using some bogus scripted program or whatever it was I would be bringing to them districts that are implementing it right. I would be pulling lessons from online that work and would be speaking out at every board meeting. I'd be getting other parents who felt the same to speak out with me. I would give them real options and not just criticism. I would be at every monthly meeting for the open comments section until I was heard or the year ended. It is our job as parents(and it sounds like you are fighting) to fight for our children. And just for the record there were children who felt that way before CC, but the outspoken people are getting a lot of people to "jump on the bandwagon". I am sure there are some speaking out against CC who had students struggling before it was even rolled out. I see people posting that teachers will lose their jobs if they don't teach certain ways...I call BS. Do we not know how powerful Teacher's unions are...we can't even fire the worst of the worst, but they will be fired if they don't teach in a very specific way? I don't buy it. A good teacher will look at what she/he has, the needs of her students and do their best to get them learning. They are not mindless robots standing in front of a class spouting off words from a script or so brainwashed they will only present a lesson a certain way.

I have searched pinterest even for CC lessons and there are great ones there. I also see many are not all that different from what I was teaching before CC. I can see people being outraged about the testing who have done it, but I really just keep scratching my head with the outrage at standards when it should be outrage at the subpar people implementing them.

That comment says so much about you. A teacher can be fired. An administrator just needs to do the work. But since you believe that CC has "enlightened you" about how bad education has been, it's not surprising that your naive enough to fall for a lazy administrator's line that he/she is too powerless to get rid of an employee.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

All students with disabilities? I ask that because I've seen very low functioning, low IQ kids put into high school science classes and that's just not realistic.

I think we're saying the same thing. That we shouldn't change the grade level standards because of specific students with disabilities. Instead we should create individualized expectations for specific kids. Clearly a child with a low IQ isn't going to master the same content in high school science as other students, and needs modified standards, but that doesn't mean that the statewide high school standards are bad.

I should add, that as an advocate for inclusion I'd say that in many cases the right place to teach those modified standards might be an inclusive high school science class, but that's a whole different debate that doesn't belong here.

 

[castleview]

I think we're saying the same thing. That we shouldn't change the grade level standards because of specific students with disabilities. Instead we should create individualized expectations for specific kids. Clearly a child with a low IQ isn't going to master the same content in high school science as other students, and needs modified standards, but that doesn't mean that the statewide high school standards are bad.

I should add, that as an advocate for inclusion I'd say that in many cases the right place to teach those modified standards might be an inclusive high school science class, but that's a whole different debate that doesn't belong here.

I should be clear that I'm talking extreme cases of inclusion…like a second grade reading level tenth grader in a Biology Lab class. Definitely a different thread - and I'm not starting that one .

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I don't think you realize how uppity you are sounding. My daughters are both in advanced math and have high averages. I obviously can get this parenting thing right. My son is struggling in math and I can tell you the difference in the way he was taught as opposed to how the girls were taught. There was no minute math with him on a daily basis and there was very little time spent on each concept as far as I'm concerned. I can flashcard him as much as I want, but the fact is he is exhausted from feeling so lost at school and it can be very painful trying to get through to him. DH and I spend far more time going over his homework with him than we ever did when our girls were this age. Sometimes things just go this way. He just got his benchmark scores back and while he was below average his DRA was high. My teacher friends have told me that means he's reading at a level expect by the end of fourth grade (he is in third grade). Care to keep telling me I'm not doing my job?




All students with disabilities? I ask that because I've seen very low functioning, low IQ kids put into high school science classes and that's just not realistic.

That is great that he is reading above grade level!

You are assuming that if he was taught like your girls then he would be good in math. However, you truly don't know that. His problem area seems to be math and he needs more help then your girls did.

You don't have to use flash cards. You can come up with a game or something else to make it fun.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I should be clear that I'm talking extreme cases of inclusion…like a second grade reading level tenth grader in a Biology Lab class. Definitely a different thread - and I'm not starting that one .

Oh, I was thinking of much lower functioning kids than that, but not looking to have that conversation here. Just saying that whether or not kids learn the same standards as their peers, and whether or not they learn in the same setting as their peers, are two different questions, and they don't need to have the same answer. That is there are kids who are well served learning modified standards in a gen ed class, and also kids who are well served learning gen ed standards in a special ed class.

 

[castleview]

That is great that he is reading above grade level!

You are assuming that if he was taught like your girls then he would be good in math. However, you truly don't know that. His problem area seems to be math and he needs more help then your girls did.

You don't have to use flash cards. You can come up with a game or something else to make it fun.

Trying that. Haven't found what works yet. What's weird is that there are certain things we've done regarding math facts (online games, etc.) and he wines "I know this stuff"….and a lot of times, he will.

Sorry that I was originally snappish too.

 

[disykat]

While I despise standardized testing and haven't made up my mind about the CC, these threads on the DIS have really opened my eyes to the wide disparity amongst the schools in the U.S. and why the CC was started in the first place.

I asked my DD10 (in fifth grade, public school) if she knew what the order of operations was. She said, "You mean Pemdas?" and then proceeded to tell me what it was and how to use it. I asked her when she learned it and she said last year. (4th grade)

I know this is a small example, but I am seeing these examples all over the boards. No wonder we are hearing so many complaints from some areas and the CC is just a blip in others.

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally...that is forever in my brain LOL

I like "please excuse my dumb algebra students," which is what the fifth grade teacher both my boys had used. (In FIFTH grade, 10 and 8 years ago) Amazing no one sued him for saying their kids were dumb, isn't it?

In my state, we've always had rigorous standards. Common Core is just another version. I teach and I have a hard time seeing CC standards as the end of the world as we know it. Education evolves over time. I'm in my 50's so I've been involved in education as a student, parent of a student, or as a teacher for 45+ years. I watch new things come, I watch them go. I'm not losing any sleep over any of them.

Common Core, not a huge fan, but not getting why people on the internet think it's evil either. My niece, who homeschools her kids, posts all sorts of stuff on facebook about CC and how it's ruining our world. Since I work with common core standards, I question what any of the things she posts have to do with it. They seem to be just bad examples of teaching that someone found to get people riled up. I always think, if she's upset about common core, why isn't she posting actual common core standards rather than random computer generated junk that someone has pounced upon?

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

I like "please excuse my dumb algebra students," which is what the fifth grade teacher both my boys had used. (In FIFTH grade, 10 and 8 years ago) Amazing no one sued him for saying their kids were dumb, isn't it?

I like this one!

I was taught a long time ago to use the mnemonic "Daisies Make Super Bouquets" for long division (Divide, Multiply, Subtract, Bring Down). Have you ever heard a less memorable mnemonic? So the first year I actually taught kids old enough to do long division (an all boy class of 2nd - 4th graders who qualified for both special ed and gifted/talented), I challenged them to come up with something better. They came up with "Dracula's Mother Sucks Blood", which I still use today.

 

[Colleen27]

My questions for Ali would be- What are you as a parent doing to help build her confidence in school and other social settings? Are you being her teacher at night and sitting with her while she does her homework, (guide her and help her understand)?

I know a few parents that spend about 3.5 hours a night helping and teaching their children while they do homework. These children struggle with concepts, but with the help of parents they are finding confidence and success.

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. They're supposed to spend 7+ hours in school, then come home to spend 3+ hours to learn how to do the things they need to know to keep up in school? That was a big part of our problem with DS long before common core... 8 year olds can't handle 10-11 hour days of drudgery, nor should they be expected to IMO. And where does that leave kids who don't have parents that can make a part-time job of teaching the things the school doesn't have time for because they're busy with higher order thinking and constructing grammatically correct math answers? A curriculum that requires hours of outside support for any noteworthy percentage of students isn't a complete curriculum, IMO.

I'm just thankful that we can afford private school for our girls now; they're getting a much more solid foundation and somehow they're learning most of it in class. I only wish we could have done so when DS was in elem because I think it would have made a major difference in his relationship to education as a whole.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. They're supposed to spend 7+ hours in school, then come home to spend 3+ hours to learn how to do the things they need to know to keep up in school? That was a big part of our problem with DS long before common core... 8 year olds can't handle 10-11 hour days of drudgery, nor should they be expected to IMO. And where does that leave kids who don't have parents that can make a part-time job of teaching the things the school doesn't have time for because they're busy with higher order thinking and constructing grammatically correct math answers? A curriculum that requires hours of outside support for any noteworthy percentage of students isn't a complete curriculum, IMO.

I'm just thankful that we can afford private school for our girls now; they're getting a much more solid foundation and somehow they're learning most of it in class. I only wish we could have done so when DS was in elem because I think it would have made a major difference in his relationship to education as a whole.

Parents are the child's first, last and most important teacher. Schools can not meet all students needs and this is where parents come into play. Parents can either hire a tutor, do extra work on weekends or whenever they have time with their child.

Basically, if it is important to a parent they will find the time. I have had to do this with my own kids when I worked 6 am to 7 pm Monday-Friday. My DH traveled for his job and was never home except 5 days a month. So it can be done.

It doesn't have to be work. A parent can be creative and make it fun. We invented card games, board games, my kids became the teacher and taught me, we had math races, invented math songs and had a contest ....

 

[shortbun]

it's fine

 

[nugov2]

That comment says so much about you. A teacher can be fired. An administrator just needs to do the work. But since you believe that CC has "enlightened you" about how bad education has been, it's not surprising that your naive enough to fall for a lazy administrator's line that he/she is too powerless to get rid of an employee.

You're right it does. It says that I paid into that powerful union so I know exactly how it works. While great first year untenured teachers are let go, oldies but not goodies get to stay because they are tenured(and I was never let go so I am not speaking of this happening to me, but it does happen all the time). You cannot easily get rid of the teacher who no longer cares due to being burned out. As long as they show up daily sober the sub par teacher can continue to educate your children. I know that a teacher who has earned tenure will not be fired because they take a lesson and teach it at a way that is best for the kids in their class as long as they are still meeting the state/national standards. So if the teachers really have so many kids not getting what they are teaching in these districts why are they not reworking the lessons???

I actually don't presume to know much about other districts, but the overwhelming posts on this board talking about schools implementing very reasonable standards in ways that make no sense have enlightened me to how districts take the easy way out by purchasing a curriculum in a box to implement. Some complete with teacher scripts. They do not sit down together rewriting the curriculum that fits the needs of their students best while working with teachers and parents. So I do agree with you 100% on the fact that there are lots of lazy administrators out there.

 

[nugov2]

I like "please excuse my dumb algebra students," which is what the fifth grade teacher both my boys had used. (In FIFTH grade, 10 and 8 years ago) Amazing no one sued him for saying their kids were dumb, isn't it?

I had a teacher tell us he wouldn't be at school the next day because he was having half of his brain removed so he would be on the same level as us...nice!!

 

[disykat]

I had a teacher tell us he wouldn't be at school the next day because he was having half of his brain removed so he would be on the same level as us...nice!!

Okay, that was just mean rather than funny. Personally, I don't think "please excuse my dumb algebra students" is mean. I think it's funny. I once was and still am a dumb algebra student and can laugh at the fact that knowing I am helps me remember the order of operations. My kids thought it was funny too. Both a great in math.

I was joking that a parent would sue because I think most would think it was cute and ironic to use that phrase as a mnemonic.