Is this insulting to you?

[FlightlessDuck]

You better tell the Pa Dutch not to sell Hex signs to tourists then..

It probably means "haha, I'm a sucker"

You know, like the Chinese tattoos that say "dumb American".


http://www.reshareworthy.com/asian-character-tattoos-gone-wrong/

 

[wilkeliza]

It probably means "haha, I'm a sucker"

You know, like the Chinese tattoos that say "dumb American".

My favorite is still the guy who got "Cracker" in hebrew tattooed on his arm. He was so proud of it because he thought it meant strong. People didn't have the heart to tell him that he got matzo instead of strong haha. They look kind of similar but it is easy to see the different in the two.
חזק = strong where as מצה = matzo

 

[PsychoCelloChica]

You better tell the Pa Dutch not to sell Hex signs to tourists then. I have one hanging in my hallway that I bought from a tourist stand ran by the Amish. I have spent quite a bit of time in prime Pa Dutch country, so have lots of quilts, iron work and yes, hex signs.

I get you... it saddens me even more that they sell them without any explanation of what they mean. And that they just make up new ones that don't use any of the traditional symbolism. That all goes back to a guy named Jacob Zook... he was the first one to mass produce them by silkscreening to sell to tourists. My family has a tradition of PA Dutch Powwow. I don't necessarily believe in it, but I respect it as the faith and practice of my ancestors, and it's important to me as something passed down from them, so I made a point to learn about it, understand it, and incorporate small parts into my life. Their culture has been mostly either commercialized or forgotten. But that doesn't mean I don't feel sad about that, and sometimes a bit resentful. I clearly remember my grandmother speaking PA Dutch, and I'm sad that I never learned.

Also, very few people these days know that even the quilt patterns have meaning. But you have some of us who still work very hard to incorporate those meaning and patterns... my mother carefully planned what design to use for a couple as a wedding gift. It had to be something that would be perfect for that couple, and she always made a point to tell them about the meaning and why she chose it for them.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Also, very few people these days know that even the quilt patterns have meaning. But you have some of us who still work very hard to incorporate those meaning and patterns... my mother carefully planned what design to use for a couple as a wedding gift. It had to be something that would be perfect for that couple, and she always made a point to tell them about the meaning and why she chose it for them.

My mother-in-law was a quilter, and had a class about patterns used by the Underground Railroad used to spend messages to escaping slaves.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Mulan was not a geisha. Equating a Chinese woman with a Japanese geisha is insulting in the sense that it appears that all Asians are the same to the person in a Chinese costume with geisha makeup, rather than understanding about having distinct cultures.

While I am not all that familiar with Mulan and the movie, etc... This is probably true.
However, even that would have absolutely no bearing on whether my child would be a white-face (geisha) Mulan.
I am not all about the over-the-top political and cultural correctness.
It is to the point of being ridiculous.

My reasoning for my opinion and advice that I would not want to have my young child in geisha white-face is all about other issues.
Some of which have been mentioned here (young child going thru a day at school in that much make-up, etc...)
And others which have not been stated that directly... (the idea of a young girl portraying a geisha)

If I wanted to be a Geisha for halloween, or buy a quilt that I personally find beautiful/attractive... I really don't care that much about the so called politiical/cultural correctness. And, I will admit that.

But, hey, that is just my opinion... (I have a much bigger problem with those who think they have the obligation and right to express/enforce a negative opinion and expect somebody else to never, ever, do anything that one just might find offensive. As the OP described.)
In the end, it is just a Halloween Costume.
How many other Costumes are we going to hear about this year that are not 'sensitive' or 'politically correct', and therefore, some person might just happen to think is 'offensive'. It is beyond ridiculous any more.

 

[gwynne]

I think a little dress up and pretend at halloween is fun. A costume, a touch of makeup, and done. I would never go so far as to paint a child's whole face white.

 

[Hrhpd]

It probably means "haha, I'm a sucker"

You know, like the Chinese tattoos that say "dumb American".


http://www.reshareworthy.com/asian-character-tattoos-gone-wrong/

Most likely, especially since it is like those mall Christmas decorations where you can have your name painted on them. It probably does say "XYZ are suckers."

 

[Hrhpd]

I get you... it saddens me even more that they sell them without any explanation of what they mean. And that they just make up new ones that don't use any of the traditional symbolism. That all goes back to a guy named Jacob Zook... he was the first one to mass produce them by silkscreening to sell to tourists. My family has a tradition of PA Dutch Powwow. I don't necessarily believe in it, but I respect it as the faith and practice of my ancestors, and it's important to me as something passed down from them, so I made a point to learn about it, understand it, and incorporate small parts into my life. Their culture has been mostly either commercialized or forgotten. But that doesn't mean I don't feel sad about that, and sometimes a bit resentful. I clearly remember my grandmother speaking PA Dutch, and I'm sad that I never learned.

Also, very few people these days know that even the quilt patterns have meaning. But you have some of us who still work very hard to incorporate those meaning and patterns... my mother carefully planned what design to use for a couple as a wedding gift. It had to be something that would be perfect for that couple, and she always made a point to tell them about the meaning and why she chose it for them.

I guess I am not that sensitive. I am Dutch by heritage (first generation US,) but it doesn't bother me at all when people run around in wooden shoes or plant tulips. I am not even offended by some of the slang that implies the Dutch are miserly. You can choose to be offended or you can celebrate that others think your heritage interesting enough to wear something or hanging something on their wall because they think it pretty.

As for the OP, if her daughter admires Mulan as a strong woman, then she should go for it if the school allows face paint. It is getting way too PC if only people of Chinese heritage can admire and emulate a strong woman of Chinese heritage.

 

[PsychoCelloChica]

I guess I am not that sensitive. I am Dutch by heritage (first generation US,) but it doesn't bother me at all when people run around in wooden shoes or plant tulips. I am not even offended by some of the slang that implies the Dutch are miserly. You can choose to be offended or you can celebrate that others think your heritage interesting enough to wear something or hanging something on their wall because they think it pretty.

Like I said in my first post... you'll find as many people who are happy about it as offended by it. It's a personal choice.

I think offended is too strong of a word for how I feel. It's a little closer to 'sad' or some sort of feeling of loss. I guess I could sum it up as, "This used to be meaningful and important to a lot of people. And I'm happy that you like it. But I wish you could like it in a way that still helped keep it meaningful and important, not just pretty."

For me, cultural appropriation is about thinking if it would hurt other people if I did something. Most people may think "This political correctness thing has gone too far, I don't care," and they are absolutely allowed to not care. I CHOOSE to care how my actions make other people feel.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

While I am not all that familiar with Mulan and the movie, etc... This is probably true.
However, even that would have absolutely no bearing on whether my child would be a white-face (geisha) Mulan.

China != Japan is not probably true. It's just true.

 

[3Gsandme]

I hate to sound like a Tumblrina/Social Justice Warrior, but I'll chime in with my 2 cents.

What you're asking about is what's called 'cultural appropriation' these days. In a nut shell, it's when someone from a dominant culture/race takes something from another culture/race and incorporates it into their own use without consideration of the impact or origin.

I'm white (Scottish and German), and even I have felt a little appropriated sometimes. I get a little sad when I see a wedding party that decided to wear full formal kilts because "they look pretty" even though no one is Scottish... or someone who got a PA Dutch hex sign as a tattoo or as home decor because they "just like the pattern". If they had taken time to research and learn about the meaning of those things and chose to do them because of THAT knowledge, it wouldn't bother me. If not, it devalues something important. These are just VERY minor examples, but the only ones I can speak on as experiencing it myself... most cultural appropriation that we talk about is more across racial boundaries and that makes it more noticeable. (For more info, look into the drama over War Bonnets and Day of the Dead makeup).

And unfortunately, there is no right answer. For every person of Chinese descent who says "Yes, that's offensive.", you're going to find one who says "No, I'm not offended, I'm glad that someone wants to dress up as a character that looks like me." And as a white person, I can't speak for people of Chinese descent, I can only try to think critically about my actions/choices and how they may be perceived.

The question for me is: Does your daughter NEED the makeup in order to dress up like the character Mulan? Does she want to be the Mulan because she is beautiful potential-bride looking for a husband during the Han Dynasty? Or does she want to be Mulan, the hero who saved her country? I don't think you need makeup for the second, even if she is choosing to wear a beautiful dress. I'm going to guess that your daughter likes Mulan because of WHO she is (a kick-butt heroine) vs. WHAT she is (a Han Dynasty Chinese woman).

All of this EXACTLY. She'll look beautiful as Mulan without her face painted.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

Mulan's make up in the movie isn't "white face"... It's Geisha make up. I'd let my child wear it.

 

[mefordis]

I would go ahead with the make up on Halloween.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I'm not really getting any solid information on why Mulan was in white face. Obviosily not Geisha, but there is some argument over whether Japan's female beauty aesthetic was influenced by China. Her clothing in the matchmaker scene is hanfu.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Makeup. According to character designer Chen-Yi Chang, women made up their faces by applying white powder and rouge from the Sui and Tang Dynasties and the Five Dynasties era. This form of appearance was common through the Qing Dynasty. Today it is mostly seen in Chinese opera and also often worn by Japanese geishas. (Information from Sinorama, August 1999 issue.)

http://www.oocities.org/hollywood/5082/culture.html

(Oh, and FYI, Chen-Yi Chang is Taiwanese... so, don't assume anything)

 

[wilkeliza]

I'm not really getting any solid information on why Mulan was in white face. Obviosily not Geisha, but there is some argument over whether Japan's female beauty aesthetic was influenced by China. Her clothing in the matchmaker scene is hanfu.

She is in white face because pale skin was seen as the beauty standard then (and still is in some areas). When she was meeting her match maker their make up was used to make their skin look more pale. Disney did it in the traditional sense that is a little over the top. It is no Geisha makeup at all as you pointed out.

 

[3Gsandme]

And, as an aside, I really wouldn't want my six year old daughter being seen as a geisha. Or assumed to be a geisha...

 

[gwynne]

And, as an aside, I really wouldn't want my six year old daughter being seen as a geisha. Or assumed to be a geisha...

I agree. I don't think most would, at first glance, be thinking the historical possible fine points. They'd likely think she was a 6yo geisha.
Anyway, I think overdoing the makeup is unnecessary.

 

[greentea]

For me, cultural appropriation is about thinking if it would hurt other people if I did something. Most people may think "This political correctness thing has gone too far, I don't care," and they are absolutely allowed to not care. I CHOOSE to care how my actions make other people feel.

Yes, and to add to the cultural appropriation comments, it's good to keep in mind that many people were and are treated badly and denied their own culture. So seeing outsiders getting to play around with it with no problems (and even praise) can be hurtful. If you are mocked or harassed for wearing your own cultural dress (or if there is a history of eradication -- think American Indian children rounded up and put into boarding schools, forced to give up their culture and speak only English, as just one example) then it can be upsetting to see that your culture is being used as a costume or as a pretty accessory. That is where many people are coming from on this, not "choosing to be offended by every little thing." What some see as "political correctness" I see as trying to empathize with others whose experiences may be outside my own. Listening and understanding is good.

 

[Pixiedustaway]

Is your mil Chinese? Is anyone in your extended family Chinese? I wouldn't give it another thought honestly.... If you made her Cinderella, she'd complain that it was insulting to mice. Kwim? Pay her no mind she just wants to be miserable