Is this a War Crime ?

Do you want the United States to prevail and Iraq to be a peaceful, democratic country?
Do you want American soldiers captured and held as war criminals by any agent of any government who disagrees with American foreign policy?


1/ Yes i want a peaceful Iraq and democratic Iraq - it won't happen till the U.S pull out

2/ I want U.S soldiers ( or any soldier accused ) tried in a ICC court - were all War crimes should be tried !!
 
You seem to focus on this theme quite a bit. I have a couple of questions for you;
Do you want the United States to prevail and Iraq to be a peaceful, democratic country?
Do you want American soldiers captured and held as war criminals by any agent of any government who disagrees with American foreign policy?

Let's face reality here. Iraq is not going to be a peaceful democratic country. Even this administration has conceded that it is not going to happen. The best that Bush and company can hope for is a period of stability that is held long enough so that our troops can be brought home. Establishing a Democracy in Iraq is no longer on the table.

The Bush administration, by running places like Gitmo and AG and black op camps of rendition throughout the world are placing our troops at risk. How can you possibly expect our troops to be treated civily if we aren't capable of acting like savages ourselves. Do I want our troops to be captured and held as war criminals, no. Will it happen because of the policies set forth by Bush and his administration, possibly. That possibilty increases because of Bush policies.
 
Although no fan of the Shrub, I don't think he is guilty of war crimes.

He took military action that was authorized by Congress. Now I certainly think that the action was a flagrant violation of international law, but as an individual actor, I can't see how he can be held up as a war criminal.

Actually, I blame Congress -- if you give an idiot child a gun, don't be surprised if he shoots your foot off.

If investigations prove that Bush deliberately manipulated the intelligence to get us into Iraq, there may indeed be grounds for criminal prosecution. We'll have to see.
 
Lets put some of these myths about the ICC to bed


1/ MYTH: The Court will take on politically motivated cases against U.S. citizens or soldiers.

FACT: Numerous safeguards in the ICC treaty will prevent frivolous or politically motivated cases. First, the ICC will cover only the most egregious international crimes, defined in ways corresponding closely to the U.S. Code of Military Justice. It will have no jurisdiction over crimes committed on U.S. soil unless the United States ratifies its treaty.

Second, the Prosecutor will not be able to begin an investigation without authorization from a Pre-Trial Chamber of Judges. At that point, if a U.S. citizen were accused of a crime, the court's judges would be obliged, upon request, to defer to U.S. justice, standing down for at least six months while the United States pursued its own investigation and, if appropriate, prosecution. After that period, the judges would be able to authorize investigations only if they decided that the U.S. judicial system was willfully obstructing justice - a very high threshold. Any indictment would also require confirmation by a Pre-Trial Chamber of judges.

Finally, the U.N. Security Council can adopt a resolution suspending the ICC from investigating or prosecuting any case.


2/ MYTH: The Court will violate U.S. Constitutional protections of due process

FACT: The court is designed to be a fair, independent judicial body that respects the highest standards of justice. Indeed, the ICC has one of the most extensive lists of due process guarantees ever written, many secured through the efforts of U.S. negotiators.

The Rome Statute contains a comprehensive list of rights enjoyed by any accused person, including: presumption of innocence; right to counsel; right to present evidence and to confront witnesses; right to remain silent; right to be present at trial; right to have charges proved beyond a reasonable doubt; and protection against double jeopardy.

Former U.S. State Department Legal Advisor Monroe Leigh has said: "The list of due process rights guaranteed by the Rome Statute are, if anything, more detailed and comprehensive than those in the American Bill of Rights. . . . I can think of no right guaranteed to military personnel by the U.S. Constitution that is not also guaranteed in the Treaty of Rome."

Human Rights Watch would not support the treaty if it did not contain such due process protections.

Only the right to trial by jury is missing from the Rome Treaty because of the impracticality of impaneling a jury to hear a case against someone like Pol Pot or Slobodan Milosevic. But the United States has long accepted that its citizens (including U.S. service members) will not get jury trials when accused of crimes in countries like France or Japan, where juries are not used. The United States has signed extradition treaties with many countries that explicitly permit Americans to be tried without a jury.


3/ MYTH: The Court will deter the United States from taking military action around the world to protect its national interests.

FACT: The presence of international tribunals has never presented a barrier to military action. The United States used force in Bosnia and in Kosovo, and has deployed thousands of troops to both places, even though the area is under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia (ICTY). The ICTY has operated responsibly with fewer safeguards than the ICC, and no requirement to defer to the decisions of national courts. When the ICTY was asked to review NATO actions in Kosovo, it decided there was no basis for proceeding with an investigation.

By deterring atrocities, the Court may also limit the need to deploy U.S. troops in dangerous situations.


4/ MYTH: ICC Judges will be partisan and/or incompetent

FACT: The ICC Treaty establishes strict criteria for the selection of the prosecutor and the judges, requiring experts whose reputation, moral character and independence are beyond reproach. They will be prohibited from any activity during their term in office that might jeopardize their independence, and will be excused from particular cases if there is any question of partiality. The judges will be accountable to an assembly of member states and can be removed by a simple vote of those countries in the unlikely event that they abuse their powers.




Come on Mr President what are you hiding from SIGN UP NOW !!!!
 

This is interesting:

Attorneys with the Center for Constitutional Rights filed a war crimes lawsuit today in Germany against outgoing Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and other high-ranking U.S. officials, for their role in the torture of prisoners in Iraq and Guantanamo. The Center for Constitutional Rights filed a criminal complaint in Germany today against outgoing Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. The complaint requests that the German Federal Prosecutor open an investigation - and ultimately, a criminal prosecution - looking into the responsibility of high-ranking U.S. officials for authorizing war crimes in the name of the so-called "War on Terror."
Former White House Counsel and current Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez and former CIA Director George Tenet, are also charged in the complaint. The suit is being brought on behalf of a dozen torture victims - 11 Iraqi citizens who were held at Abu Ghraib prison and one Guantánamo detainee. The plaintiffs claim they were victims of electric shock, severe beatings, sleep and food deprivation and sexual abuse. The complaint filed today is related to a 2004 complaint that was dismissed. This new complaint is filed under new circumstances including the recent resignation of Donald Rumsfeld. Germany"s laws on torture and war crimes permit the prosecution of suspected war criminals wherever they may be found.
 
1/ Yes i want a peaceful Iraq and democratic Iraq - it won't happen till the U.S pull out

2/ I want U.S soldiers ( or any soldier accused ) tried in a ICC court - were all War crimes should be tried !!

I think you are clearly wrong on both counts. There will be no free, democratic or peaceful Iraq after the US pulls out. It will be overrun by the interests of Iran who will expand their power into Iraq and the new Iraqi government will not be able to defend itself against that type of incursion.

There is absolutely NO reason why any American should be tried before an international court. If they are guilty of what they are accused of, they will be punished to the full extend of military law. Why you would want to expose Americans to the risk of injustice is beyond me. Do you have that much distain for the military?
 
Let's face reality here. Iraq is not going to be a peaceful democratic country. Even this administration has conceded that it is not going to happen. The best that Bush and company can hope for is a period of stability that is held long enough so that our troops can be brought home. Establishing a Democracy in Iraq is no longer on the table.

The Bush administration, by running places like Gitmo and AG and black op camps of rendition throughout the world are placing our troops at risk. How can you possibly expect our troops to be treated civily if we aren't capable of acting like savages ourselves. Do I want our troops to be captured and held as war criminals, no. Will it happen because of the policies set forth by Bush and his administration, possibly. That possibilty increases because of Bush policies.

We have not conceded that we can't be successful in Iraq. Iraq is already a democracy, a struggling one but one in which MOST of the country is thriving economically and politically. The Kurds are quite happy for example. Please don't try to peddle the myth about the "savage treatment" that the detainees are getting. My DH worked at a detainee camp and they receive top notch medical care along with everything else. In fact, any detainee over the age of 50 at Gitmo is offerred a colonoscopy! Now I know that may be torture for some of you, but it is recommended.;)
 
I think you are clearly wrong on both counts. There will be no free, democratic or peaceful Iraq after the US pulls out. It will be overrun by the interests of Iran who will expand their power into Iraq and the new Iraqi government will not be able to defend itself against that type of incursion.

There is absolutely NO reason why any American should be tried before an international court. If they are guilty of what they are accused of, they will be punished to the full extend of military law. Why you would want to expose Americans to the risk of injustice is beyond me. Do you have that much distain for the military?

There is absolutely NO reason why any American should be tried before an international court. If they are guilty of what they are accused of, they will be punished to the full extend of military law.

You mean punished like this?:


US Army Lt William Calley was convicted in 1971 of premeditated murder in ordering the shootings and initially sentenced to life in prison; two days later, however, President Richard Nixon ordered him released from prison, pending appeal of his sentence. Calley served 3½ years of house arrest in his quarters at Fort Benning, Georgia, and was then ordered freed by Federal Judge J Robert Elliot. Calley claimed he was following orders from his captain, Ernest Medina; Medina denied giving the orders and was acquitted at a separate trial. Most of the soldiers involved in the My Lai incident were no longer enlisted. Of the 26 men initially charged, Lt Calley's was the only conviction.
 
We have not conceded that we can't be successful in Iraq. Iraq is already a democracy, a struggling one but one in which MOST of the country is thriving economically and politically. The Kurds are quite happy for example. Please don't try to peddle the myth about the "savage treatment" that the detainees are getting. My DH worked at a detainee camp and they receive top notch medical care along with everything else. In fact, any detainee over the age of 50 at Gitmo is offerred a colonoscopy! Now I know that may be torture for some of you, but it is recommended.;)

MOST of Iraq is thriving economically and politically? Most Iraqi's can't even flush their own toilet or keep a 60 watt light bulb going. Can you give us some examples of the Happy Kurds? I'm sure that your husband must be right and everyone else is just making things up as far as Gitmo, AG and the Black OP rendition centers. Hey after all we give prisoners a colonoscopy after they're tortured. :thumbsup2
 
You mean punished like this?:


US Army Lt William Calley was convicted in 1971 of premeditated murder in ordering the shootings and initially sentenced to life in prison; two days later, however, President Richard Nixon ordered him released from prison, pending appeal of his sentence. Calley served 3½ years of house arrest in his quarters at Fort Benning, Georgia, and was then ordered freed by Federal Judge J Robert Elliot. Calley claimed he was following orders from his captain, Ernest Medina; Medina denied giving the orders and was acquitted at a separate trial. Most of the soldiers involved in the My Lai incident were no longer enlisted. Of the 26 men initially charged, Lt Calley's was the only conviction.

I am sure that there are a lot of jury verdicts that take place in this country every day that you nor I agree with. The child rapist in Vt for example who received no jail time. However, we do not turn those defendants over to World Courts because we don't like the outcome.
 
Why you would want to expose Americans to the risk of injustice is beyond me. Do you have that much distain for the military?


What injustice, can you prove any has happened ?


Yes i do for murders and rapists in military uniforms :mad:



Dawn if nearly all the U.S's allies are signed up to the ICC what is the U.S's problem ?


Come on Mr President what are you hiding from SIGN UP NOW !!!! and show you believe in Democracy !!!
 
MOST of Iraq is thriving economically and politically? Most Iraqi's can't even flush their own toilet or keep a 60 watt light bulb going. Can you give us some examples of the Happy Kurds? I'm sure that your husband must be right and everyone else is just making things up as far as Gitmo, AG and the Black OP rendition centers. Hey after all we give prisoners a colonoscopy after they're tortured. :thumbsup2

Business is thriving in the entire northern third of the country. Oil revenues are up, there are ice cream stands, goods are flowing off of the shelves, real estate prices are rising and their infrastructure has been being built up since 1991 because they were under the umbrella of protection of the no fly zone, hence they have been able to pay for that ad that had been airing in the USA, Thank you America from the 'other Iraq. The southern third was plundered for years by Saddam so they haven't had infrastructure for years. The violence there has some terrorists incidents but probably isn't much worse than most third world countries. The middle third is where 90% of the insurgent violence is directed. It is because of Al Queda, Saddam Suni loyalists and the Shiite militias. If some kind of control can be brought to that area, then the level of violence can be reduced to perhaps that of Detroit on a Saturday night. Again, the US military does NOT torture. I think you have been reading to many issues of the NYTs. The detainees have received medical care that they couldn't have hoped to have had in their own countries.
 
What injustice, can you prove any has happened ?


Yes i do for murders and rapists in military uniforms :mad:



Dawn if nearly all the U.S's allies are signed up to the ICC what is the U.S's problem ?


Come on Mr President what are you hiding from SIGN UP NOW !!!! and show you believe in Democracy !!!

President Bush is not hiding. He recognizes the realities of the excessive third world influence. Countries such as Venezuela, Cuba, all of whom would be part of the court The Europeans, particularly the French who have their issues with the USA, would use this as an opportunity to go after our military. As the influence of non citizens gains power in many European countries, attacking the USA through the court system could easily placate those groups that have attacked France from within, as well as Germany. Then there is China and Russia, hardly beacons of human rights. It would be ludicrous to think that they could sit in judgement of American soldiers or American citizens for that matter. Thank you President Bush for protecting Americans.
 
Countries such as Venezuela, Cuba, all of whom would be part of the court The Europeans, particularly the French who have their issues with the USA, would use this as an opportunity to go after our military. As the influence of non citizens gains power in many European countries, attacking the USA through the court system could easily placate those groups that have attacked France from within, as well as Germany. QUOTE]

And just where do these "facts" come from?
 
Countries such as Venezuela, Cuba, all of whom would be part of the court The Europeans, particularly the French who have their issues with the USA, would use this as an opportunity to go after our military. As the influence of non citizens gains power in many European countries, attacking the USA through the court system could easily placate those groups that have attacked France from within, as well as Germany. QUOTE]

And just where do these "facts" come from?

The French already do not want us in Guantanamo Bay. The French do not want us doing anything. The major thrust of French foreign policy is to reduce the influence of the USA through out the world. They are under some delusion that they are a major influence on the world stage. They haven't been since the days of Napolean. They wouldn't hesitate to chastise the US for real or percieved "injustices". So what facts are you actually questioning? I just gave you one example. What is Hugo Chavez's opinion of the USA. Wasn't it Italy that recently issued an arrest warrant for US CIA agents for removing a terrorist from their country? What more do you need to know?
 
I am sure that there are a lot of jury verdicts that take place in this country every day that you nor I agree with. The child rapist in Vt for example who received no jail time. However, we do not turn those defendants over to World Courts because we don't like the outcome.

You stated that they would be punished to the full extent of MILITARY law. We are talking about military staff, not civilians. Calley was not punished to the full extent of military law.
 
Wasn't it Italy that recently issued an arrest warrant for US CIA agents for removing a terrorist from their country? What more do you need to know?

So let me get this straight, an arrest warrant is issued by the Italian government against CIA agents who abducted a person of the streets of their country, and this is an example of how Americans can not expect justice abroad?

I'm more than a little curious--what do you think would happen if Italian agents kidnapped someone off the streets of hartford who they "claimed" was plotting against the Italian government. Would that be ok?
 
So let me get this straight, an arrest warrant is issued by the Italian government against CIA agents who abducted a person of the streets of their country, and this is an example of how Americans can not expect justice abroad?

I'm more than a little curious--what do you think would happen if Italian agents kidnapped someone off the streets of hartford who they "claimed" was plotting against the Italian government. Would that be ok?

I don't have a problem with the CIA bringing terrorists to justice. Now I am not sure that Italy actually has an "intelligence agency" that would be capable of such a feat so isn't that a bit hypothetical?:rotfl2:
 
You stated that they would be punished to the full extent of MILITARY law. We are talking about military staff, not civilians. Calley was not punished to the full extent of military law.

He was punished to the extend that the trial's outcome required. Isn't that true of every court in the United States? Sometimes you get the verdict you want, sometimes you don't.
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom