Is the "hail-mary" pass REALLY acceptable?

[DisneyGirl4188]

I think that it is cutting.

Take your kids to the bathroom, get a drink, whatever BEFORE getting in line. Yes, they are going to be times that a kid is going to need to use the bathroom while in line. Fine, I have no problem letting one (maybe two) kids and a parent meet back up with their group. However, I won't be too happy if a whole family does it.

 

[Brooknwdw]

Just think how you would feel if a few adults and maybe 1 or 2 children waltzed by you to the front after you have been waiting a good long time. You would probably be pretty put out, especially if it is hot and you are a little cranky, as we all are at one time of another. The theory of this technique is noble, but we all know in actutality it provides too big of an opportunity to be abused. Small children can be entertained inside the queue pretty well too. Just plan ahead and provide some in line diversions for them to pass the time.

Yes I agree, however this would not be the Hail Mary pass. This would be one person standing in line, & a whole family joining in getting ahead of you.

The way I understood it to read is that one parent (of a small child) can wait in line, then the other one hands the child to that parent so he/she can ride it w/o waiting).

This would not be wrong, IMO, whereas the first example is (& rude, too).

 

[Jennasis]

I realy don't mind letting people in front of me to be with there family. If my FIL can't stand the whole time and wait I set with him then catch up with my DH. Standing in one place for along time realy hurts his knees he is 80.I don't see any problem with one person getting out of line to go to the bathroom while the others wait.

Sounds like your FIL is a good candidate for a wheelcahir or ECV at a place like WDW. There is soooo much walking and standing involved that it must get terribly uncomfortable for him. Besides that, having him try to climb over or maneuver around people (angry people) who are in line to catch up to the family member waiting up ahead must be tough on his knees too.

 

[Jennasis]

Yes I agree, however this would not be the Hail Mary pass. This would be one person standing in line, & a whole family joining in getting ahead of you.

The way I understood it to read is that one parent (of a small child) can wait in line, then the other one hands the child to that parent so he/she can ride it w/o waiting).

This would not be wrong, IMO, whereas the first example is (& rude, too).

THIS is called a child-swap. BOTH parents stand in line with the kid. One (mom) rides while the other (dad) waits at the loading area with the kid. Then the kid is handed off to mom so that dad can ride withou having to wait any longer. Perfectly acceptabl/legal etc. ALL parents must wait in line together though.

 

[notnothin]

You can spin it however you want, it's line cutting, pure and simple.

I totally agree. I can't imagine people would consider it to be anything other than line cutting.

 

[gigi1313]

the Hail-Mary pass and Child-Swap are two diff't things... the latter is sothat the child does not have to ride and the former so that the child can ride twice...

here's how it works... Mom and child get in line and eventually ride ride... Dad stands and counts guests getting in line 'til he gets to about 60 (for dumbo, if i remember correctly) and then he gets in line... when Mom and junior get off the ride, Mom passes junior to Dad so both parents have the experience of riding the ride w/junior...

for a ride like Dumbo you lose the "experience" of riding w/your kid if you are in two different elephants... so only one parent is "enjoying" their child on the ride, the other is just riding around in a flying elephant... w/the HMP plan both parents can enjoy the child, it's not (imo) a major line-cutting offense like one person holding the place for a family of ten and it leaves everyone happy!

 

[Cool-Beans]

I have no problem with two or three year olds joining the line late. Older kids can wait in line.

If your children are very special and cannot wait in lines, don't go to theme parks.

 

[Aidensmom]

We did this once when we were waiting in line for something and my son (he was 4 at the time), after waiting in line for a bit had to use the restroom. No one around us seemed to get upset by it. I wouldn't do it just to entertain my son though, that just doesn't seem quite fair.

However, I have seen a child and parent come join the rest of a family waiting in line before, and really never gave it any thought to it, so it obviously didn't bother me.

 

[Yookeroo]

If it's one adult with a child or two that are younger than 4 years old and it's 100 degrees out? No problem. If it's a couple of adults and 5 kids that are "tweens" or older? No way.

 

[Caitsmama]

I don't think it is generally a great idea. I have a 5 yr old, and this is our 3rd trip to WDW.. She has always waited in the line with us. The only exception is that once or twice i had to politely ask the person next to me if they would understand, i needed to take her to the restroom.. and generally they have been graceful about it! (People can say that kids should go before, which we try to do.. but at 3 or 4 yrs old, their bladders are tiny, and if they gotta go......they gotta go! Would you rather give them looks if they ask to go, or watch them have an accident??)
However, we would not make it a habit of not having her with us in line, Like other posters say, What are we teaching them, by letting them get out of line, play on the side, and then join the line 30 min later??
The only exception i can see with this, is maybe if it is a baby that needs to eat or something.. but then again, I have never been to WDW with an infant, so i don't know the "rules" on all that..
And i can't STAND it when adults try to do this!!!! That is pure line cutting, and it is RUDE. I have said something to people reguarding this in line a number of times.. and not just at WDW.

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

I completely agree that I do not like the practice of line cutting, but what the UG outlines is not exactly how it is being interpreted here.

It's mainly for rides like Dumbo, Aladdin's carpets, etc, where the queue is exposed and tight. These are start-and-stop cycle rides.

How the "hail mary" thing actually works is like this :

1) One parent gets in line with small child.
2) Parent two waits a minute and then gets in line themselves (with at least one "cycle" of people in between parent one and parent two)
3) As parent one gets off the ride with child they pass the small child to the parent already waiting in line (easy to do on something like Dumbo, this isn't like jumping the queue at Pirates or Splash)
4) Child gets to ride again with Parent Two, who was already in line, while Parent One continues out and waits at the exit.

In essence, the child gets two rides. However, on those cycle rides the parent number two (who also waited in line) would just get their own elephant/carpet/whatever anyway, so no one in line "loses" their place in line by letting the small child ride again in a car that would have been occupied by just their parent anyway, instead of the parent and the small child. Just as many people are going to get on that cycle as would if the small child had not gone again.

Line cutting is just a bad thing, and this does seem like "training" kids to cheat the system, I agree. However, the ACTUAL hail-mary pass as described in the UG (and I've outlined above) is pretty harmless when it's a kid 3 or under, and both parents have waited in line. I don't see (again, on these cycle rides) any problem with it if the parents are smart enough to do it properly.

Those people who need to find their families in line and want to cut the entire "Splash Mountain" queue? Sorry kids, meet them at the exit...half the time they are lying anyway.

NED

 

[CowboyCO]

I dont do it personally, but I would much rather let a parent and their small kids in front of me, than stand in line with cranky miserable kids for 45 minutes. I am not in that much of a hurry when I am on vacation-a couple people ahead of me is a great trade off for a peaceful wait in line. Then again, my kids (3 and 6) don't have a problem waiting in line-they usually entertain themselves-but not all kids like waiting!

I agree with you StacyPop-- I don't view it as a problem. It is very hard for small children to stand in line for 30-45 minutes and I view it as a courtesy to people in the line to not subject them to squirmy, hot kids. I have been on both ends of this, having subjected people to my two and enduring (patiently) other people's wiggle monsters. My kids are very well-behaved, but it's asking a lot, especially if this is the 2nd, 3rd or 4th line that day.

I can understand how people may not like it on principle, but principle ain't reality when you're dealing with kids! Their "principle" may go away after 20 minutes of overstimulated 4-6 year olds!

 

[Caitsmama]

If it's one adult with a child or two that are younger than 4 years old and it's 100 degrees out? No problem.

I REALLY hope people would excersise some common sense on this, why why WHY would you have young children/babies waiting in a long line out in the searing heat anyway?!! I just don't get it. Seriously, if it is 100 degrees out, and the child is waiting in the sun for a long period of time, that is unacceptable in my book, and a health risk for anyone, specifically a child!

 

[Hoopfamily]

This practice is most definatley NOT line cutting, when done correctly. All adults in the party who want to ride get in line except 1. This adult has the job of "entertaining the kid/kids" When the rest of the group is in the front then the single adult & kid/kids join up. That is the only correct scenario. More than 1 adult, or kid over 5 and I say unacceptable.

 

[DonaldDuckFan]

I don't really have an opinion on whether it's "line-cutting" or not, but my first thought is that if a bunch of people are in line doing it, then the posted wait time for the ride might end up very skewed. What might look like a 30-minute wait might end up being more like 45 minutes. I would think that a lot of people would have to be using that technique to make much of a difference in wait times, though.

Just wanted to say that it wouldn't really mess up the posted wait time at all. How they check the wait time is a CM hands a marker to someone when they enter the queue for a ride and then the person gives it to a CM right before they get on the ride, so the hand off would have to happen before they got to this point. I know this because it happen to us twice while we were in Disney.

I don't really believe this is line cutting, I think some of you are misunderstanding the hail mary. As mentioned above, it's JUST for a small child to ride with the adult, if other adults and children are getting in line also then it is cutting. I personally have not done this, but I wouldn't be upset if someone in front of me did.

 

[Cool-Beans]

We did this once when we were waiting in line for something and my son (he was 4 at the time), after waiting in line for a bit had to use the restroom.

...once or twice i had to politely ask the person next to me if they would understand, i needed to take her to the restroom...

I wouldn't mind a young kid leaving the line to go to the bathroom and returning.

It is the business of one person waiting and then everyone else catching up that I won't encourage.

 

[Sleeping Becca]

I think that it is cutting.

Take your kids to the bathroom, get a drink, whatever BEFORE getting in line. Yes, they are going to be times that a kid is going to need to use the bathroom while in line. Fine, I have no problem letting one (maybe two) kids and a parent meet back up with their group. However, I won't be too happy if a whole family does it.

Believe me my like would be so much easier if my DD and DN would use the bathroom BEFORE getting into a long line, because I assure you I ask them BEFORE we get in line if they have to go. They ALWAYS respond with a no, which is probably true at the time. But sure enough after a while in line they realize that they can't hold it and we have to make an emergency bathroom run.

Just to let you know it is not because we are irresponsible parents, it's because our kids are so excited and don't understand that taking a 5 min bathroom break before we get into a line, doen't mean we are not going to ride the ride.

 

[molly2004]

I completely agree that I do not like the practice of line cutting, but what the UG outlines is not exactly how it is being interpreted here.

It's mainly for rides like Dumbo, Aladdin's carpets, etc, where the queue is exposed and tight. These are start-and-stop cycle rides.

How the "hail mary" thing actually works is like this :

1) One parent gets in line with small child.
2) Parent two waits a minute and then gets in line themselves (with at least one "cycle" of people in between parent one and parent two)
3) As parent one gets off the ride with child they pass the small child to the parent already waiting in line (easy to do on something like Dumbo, this isn't like jumping the queue at Pirates or Splash)
4) Child gets to ride again with Parent Two, who was already in line, while Parent One continues out and waits at the exit.

In essence, the child gets two rides. However, on those cycle rides the parent number two (who also waited in line) would just get their own elephant/carpet/whatever anyway, so no one in line "loses" their place in line by letting the small child ride again in a car that would have been occupied by just their parent anyway, instead of the parent and the small child. Just as many people are going to get on that cycle as would if the small child had not gone again.

Line cutting is just a bad thing, and this does seem like "training" kids to cheat the system, I agree. However, the ACTUAL hail-mary pass as described in the UG (and I've outlined above) is pretty harmless when it's a kid 3 or under, and both parents have waited in line. I don't see (again, on these cycle rides) any problem with it if the parents are smart enough to do it properly.

Those people who need to find their families in line and want to cut the entire "Splash Mountain" queue? Sorry kids, meet them at the exit...half the time they are lying anyway.

NED

Actually, what you described is something else. I can't remember what the UG author called it, but it is different from what I originally posted.

I didn't mean to stir the pot. I was just baffled why a "bible" we all use would recommend something like that.

Sorry if this opened an old wound. I really didn't know!

 

[Lorelai]

As a 25+ year Youth Development Professional, this topic hits a nerve with me. I am reading more and more on these boards and in books like the one you mentioned, parents stating that their kids cannot wait patiently in line, therefore they resort to tactics similar to this one you are talking about.
Children are by nature fidgety. Waiting in line or waiting your turn is a learned behavior, not one that comes naturally. Parents are not doing their kids a favor by avoiding lines or waits. Kids learn by experiencing. Waiting in line is a learning experience.
But now you have parents going out of their way to ensure their kids are never discomforted in anyway. They feel the necessity to install a DVD player in their car so the kids are not bored during the ten minute drive to the grocery store.
I recently saw that a chain of grocery stores is test marketing carts that parents can rent that have a built in DVD and video game system to entertain the kids while mom is shopping.
If children never experience the discomfort of waiting in line or waiting their turn, they will never learn patience.
I can not think of a better place than Disney for children to experience the discomfort of waiting in a line and the reward for their patience. Parents should explain to their kids "If you want to ride Dumbo you will have to wait patiently in line." The child then knows what is expected and he/she is rewarded if they wait patiently. If the child becomes too fidgety, she/he should be corrected. If they continue the inappropriate behavior, the parent should remove them from the line and explain that the reason they can not ride is because they were not able to wait patiently.
In addition children to need to learn concepts such as "fairness". Is it fair that other people have to wait in line and they don't?
Sorry for the soap box, but like I said, this issue hits a nerve with me.

I agree, as I am a huge proponent of teaching patience and the virtue of a job well done.

However, for me personally, potty training is an issue I would never "evil eye" someone for. I must make exception for this based on a humiliating personal experience.

When in Disney we drink water like crazy to avoid anyone becoming dehydrated. And a 2 year old can become a bit puzzled by the rapidness with which their bladder can fill during the Disney hydration blitz. During our April 2000 trip we made sure to make a trip to the potty before getting in line for Buzz. Well, halfway through the line (long line - Easter week!) I see some tell tale signs of discomfort in my trainer. So I say "okay, let's go, it looks like we'll have to try this later". My little one says, "but I just went potty, I don't have to".

Okay, maybe it's just a fidgety line dance he has going on. I'll give it five more minutes. Well, I hadn't even finished my thought before we were standing in a puddle. Ugh....It wasn't even a serious, hoppy, I'm grabbing myself dance - and it came out of nowhere - darn that extra large sippy cup!

Therefore, if I ever see an "I need to pee dance" begin in front of me, I'll gladly step aside and let the little tinkler back in line. I think there is a need for sensitivity where very small children and senior citizens are concerned. And I know there a tons of Dis-ers who feel that there should be no exception made. I'm just saying that for me personally, if I am ever in that situation, I would have no problem yielding. Yet I do understand why others feel this is an annoyance.

I cannot judge another until I have walked in their shoes...er, puddle. And I don't really want to walk in anyone's puddle - so I'm just not judging.

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

Actually, what you described is something else. I can't remember what the UG author called it, but it is different from what I originally posted.

I didn't mean to stir the pot. I was just baffled why a "bible" we all use would recommend something like that.

Sorry if this opened an old wound. I really didn't know!

Answer below..

NED