Is it too easy to get divorced?

[MushyMushy]

Nice straw man. Now maybe we can get back on topic. If there is a victim in family court, it is the father.

Well, I would say it's the child, but you're right. Men very often get the shaft in family court. Too often a man is seen as an ATM machine rather than an equal parent.

 

[hippiemama76]

LOL - BOTH DH and I are firm believers in attachment parenting. (co-sleeping, wearing baby, nursing, no crying it out etc...) and we're the furthest thing from helicopter parents that you can find, we both worked, and we managed to find plenty of alone time. The fact that we were both in agreement on how to raise our children has made our marriage stronger, not weaker.

Thanks for speaking up! HippieDaddy and I are AP - a decision that we made together. We have a family bed and don't use sitters. We also have an incredibly strong marriage. I really resent the implication that our chosen parenting style is a detriment to our marriage. Besides, one of the basic tenants of AP is to strive for balance in personal and family life. I wish all the AP haters could spend a minute or two to educate themselves about the idea they are dissing. *sigh*

Fabulous post, Sparx. Until women are truly equal citizens in our world, many will continue to enter into unhealthy relationships for social/political/financial security.

 

[Buckalew11]

Mermaid,
My sister and BIL are in their early 50's, been married for 34 yrs. I think it could be labeled a crisis although he doesn't like me to say that to him when we talk.

An older male friend (also in his 50's) told me that this was something I'd be seeing more and more of because very often once you are in your 40's and 50's, you begin to reflect on your life, your marriage and often the kids are out of the nest (or closing in on being out) and you decide that you want "more" out of life or aren't happy or could be happier etc. etc. etc. It isn't always about cheating and getting a new, younger model--but often they may have met someone who makes them feel like their spouse doesn't (anymore).

 

[MrsPete]

At least two spouses we know are shopping around for better deals. It does happen.

"Shopping around for better deals". Yes, I know people who've done just that.

Sorry - this may be true sometimes, but in ALL of the divorces of couples that I know, there has been a "victim".

I certainly can't say that.

You only have one life to live there's no point spending it with someone that you are not happy with. You should not have to pay with your entire lifetime, that's ridiculous. If I was married to someone that did not make me smile and add joy to my life, yes I would leave. There's no point in simply existing day in and day out because you got married.

I both agree and disagree. If you're talking about an actively BAD marriage -- abuse, drugs, stuff that no one should have to deal with -- then, yes, it makes sense to get out.

But if there are children involved and it's a matter of, "He's a good father and a good provider, but we just don't feel giddy about one another any longer", then it's better to stay in it at least until the children are grown. Often -- if both partners are working on it -- those downperiods turn out to be just downperiods, and the spouses can pull it back together again. Even if they cannot find in one another that passion that they once had, it's worth it to stay in a ho-hum marriage to avoid putting the kids through all the negatives that come with divorce.

Modern America has twice as many animal shelters as it does battered women's shelters.

Modern America pays a white woman (controlled for experience/education) 80 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a black woman (controlled for experience/education) 70 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a hispanic/latino woman (controlled for experience/education) 60 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern American women face a 50/50 chance of spousal abuse in their lifetime.

A Modern American woman is beaten every five seconds.

Modern American women are killed (60%) of the time by their husbands.

35% of Modern American ER visits are due to spousal abuse by Modern American Men.

40% of Modern American rapes occur in the victim's home.

Only half of Modern American crimes against women are reported to the police.

Modern American women are most likely injured due to domestic violence. More domestic violence injuries happen than any other injury.

1 in 5 female Modern American high school students reports being sexually assaulted by a boyfriend.

6 Million Modern American women will be beaten this year by their Modern American Husbands.

4000 of those Modern American women will be beaten to death.

7 Modern American Fortune 500 companies have female CEOs.

92% of Modern American women do not discuss their domestic violence injuries with a physician.

Yes, I fear victimization of women in Modern America.

I find these facts hard to believe, given that I know exactly ONE person who's been involved in spousal abuse, and she didn't stay long enough to be injured -- she left. Yes, I understand that it's not something that people would readily admit, but out of all the people I know . . . you'd think I'd know more than ONE.

Most of these are also rather incomplete. For example, the differences in earnings are easily explained by the fact that women tend to choose lower-paying jobs, and they tend to interrupt their careers for family reasons at a higher rate than do men. If you look at statistics that compare men and women with similar educations, work histories, and job responsibilities, those salary differences disappear.

The 35% of ER visits looked suspicious,so I did a google search. South Carolina came up first on the list, and I found that these are the top ten things that brought people into the ER last year:

OTH ABDOMEN/PELVIS SYMP
RESP SYS/OTH CHEST SYMP*
SPRAIN OF BACK NEC/NOS*
BACK DISORDER NEC & NOS*
OTHER CELLULITIS/ABSCESS*
SYMPTOMS INVOL HEAD/NECK*
OTH URINARY TRACT DISOR*
GENERAL SYMPTOMS*
ACUTE PHARYNGITIS
GI SYSTEM SYMPTOMS*

Most of these don't sound like the results of abuse. I mean, no matter how hard you're hit, it's not going to give you breathing problems or a urinary tract disorder.

In short, I don't see my gender as a bunch of poor little victims who need protection. The vast majority of us take care of ourselves very well.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...In short, I don't see my gender as a bunch of poor little victims who need protection. The vast majority of us take care of ourselves very well.

 

[MrsPete]

Well, I would say it's the child, but you're right. Men very often get the shaft in family court. Too often a man is seen as an ATM machine rather than an equal parent.

I do agree that often one spouse fares better in court than the other. Too many women, for example, are quick to accept little in the way of financial assets so that they can keep the house . . . and then they end up selling it because they can't afford it. And sometimes men are really looked at as ATM machines.

But that's not about the marriage. That's not the same as being responsible for things that led to the divorce. That's the fallout.

I completely agree that the child is almost always a victim of divorce. Most always the child's relationship with one (or both) parents suffers -- often because the parents choose to bad-mouth one another in an attempt to be "the good one". Other parents over-indulge the child out of a sense of guilt. Details vary, but children do suffer in divorce -- that's one of the main reasons people should do everything possible to avoid it.

 

[Mermaid02]

Mermaid,
My sister and BIL are in their early 50's, been married for 34 yrs. I think it could be labeled a crisis although he doesn't like me to say that to him when we talk.

An older male friend (also in his 50's) told me that this was something I'd be seeing more and more of because very often once you are in your 40's and 50's, you begin to reflect on your life, your marriage and often the kids are out of the nest (or closing in on being out) and you decide that you want "more" out of life or aren't happy or could be happier etc. etc. etc. It isn't always about cheating and getting a new, younger model--but often they may have met someone who makes them feel like their spouse doesn't (anymore).

Right- but very often in a few years the new spouse won't be making them feel that way either. It's the "newness" of a relationship.

 

[Disney Doll]

Of course, if people were a little more careful going IN to the marriage...a little pickier...a little more discerning...a little more sure....a little more careful (and I SOOOOOOOOO include myself in this group), maybe there wouldn't be so many divorces in the first place.

Truer words were never spoken!

So many women (and some men although not as many men I don't think) get caught up in "The Wedding" and forget about "The Marriage".

I just went to a wedding last summer of a young woman who married a man who has already been married once. OK...we all make mistakes. Meanwhile, she's working as a nurse and he is unemployed. He is an engineer of a very specific specialty and there are not a lot of jobs out there in his specialty. He has been offered other jobs in engineering but they were "beneath him". To add to the mix, she became "unexpectedly" pregnant, so she was pregnant at her wedding, although not showing.

So, now she is married less than a year with a new baby and an unemployed husband. Prior to his losing his job, they bought a house, based on both their incomes. So she is working mega hours to pay the bills and oh, by the way, he doesn't want to spend his days watching the baby "in case a call for a job interview comes in" so the baby goes to daycare. Because we all know that a prospective employer will call you and say "I want to interview you and you have to be here in 20 minutes". Oh, and he won't do any work around the house (it is a bit of a "fixer upper") because he doesn't want to be all dirty if a job interview calls, again, because a prospective employer will want you to appear in 20 minutes for a job interview.

The sad part was, this is no surprise to me or any of the people watching thier relationship develop. When they met, he was living in Florida. She flew down there every weekend to be with him. He did not make an effort to come to her that often. Everything was "Bill wants this" and "Bill wants that" and there was not a lot of what "Sue wanted" put into the mix. But Sue wanted to get married...hitting her early 30's, not married, the bi clock ticking etc.

Sue didn't pay attention....and now Sue is paying the price. I fully expect they will divorce within 5 years, because I think Sue will realize she married a loser. What Sue should have realized is that she was DATING a loser. And it's hard for me to feel sorry for Sue...she should have been paying attention.

 

[Colleen27]

So be it. Marriage means standing together for life, not until something better comes along. Anyone not ready to sign on for this should get none of the associated "benefits".

Signing on for life shouldn't mean signing on for abuse so long as the abuser can avoid getting caught, though, or for addiction or any other destructive/toxic behavior.

You said in an earlier post to someone who had been divorced that it sounded like her husband was the one who broke the vows through "emotional abandonment and mental abuse". How would you go about gathering proof of that to satisfy a court?

 

[Colleen27]

Thanks for speaking up! HippieDaddy and I are AP - a decision that we made together. We have a family bed and don't use sitters. We also have an incredibly strong marriage. I really resent the implication that our chosen parenting style is a detriment to our marriage. Besides, one of the basic tenants of AP is to strive for balance in personal and family life. I wish all the AP haters could spend a minute or two to educate themselves about the idea they are dissing. *sigh*

Okay, now I feel the need to clarify since two people took my post the same way. I'm not an AP hater; to me a lot of it is instinctive/common sense parenting, and although I do draw the line short of a family bed my overall parenting style leans rather heavily towards AP. The problem I see is that a LOT of women become believers in attachment parenting and make these choices unilaterally, so you end up with a husband who just doesn't get what harm will come from leaving the kids at Grandma's overnight or who wants the marital bed to remain the marital bed, not become a family bed, and a wife insisting on doing things her way. And when those choices and practices don't come from mutual agreement and a shared philosophy, they're bound to create marital problems.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...You said in an earlier post to someone who had been divorced that it sounded like her husband was the one who broke the vows through "emotional abandonment and mental abuse". How would you go about gathering proof of that to satisfy a court?

Suffice to say that it happened to me, and I did.

She did other things, but these were the things that I proved in court. That is why I used them in my example. And this was decades ago - long before some of the modern technology that we have today was available.

 

[bamajill]

Sue didn't pay attention....and now Sue is paying the price. I fully expect they will divorce within 5 years, because I think Sue will realize she married a loser. What Sue should have realized is that she was DATING a loser. And it's hard for me to feel sorry for Sue...she should have been paying attention.

Well, I hope Sue has some better friends, to be honest. Some that may be there for her if she does, indeed, realize that she married a loser.

Not everyone gets it right the first time.

 

[hippiemama76]

Okay, now I feel the need to clarify since two people took my post the same way. I'm not an AP hater; to me a lot of it is instinctive/common sense parenting, and although I do draw the line short of a family bed my overall parenting style leans rather heavily towards AP. The problem I see is that a LOT of women become believers in attachment parenting and make these choices unilaterally, so you end up with a husband who just doesn't get what harm will come from leaving the kids at Grandma's overnight or who wants the marital bed to remain the marital bed, not become a family bed, and a wife insisting on doing things her way. And when those choices and practices don't come from mutual agreement and a shared philosophy, they're bound to create marital problems.

Thanks for clarifying, Colleen. I do agree that if the partners are not on the same page about something, it will definitely degrade the relationship. I know I'm in sensitive mode - it feels like every 2nd or 3rd page I open on the DIS has a random anti-AP sentiment. I'd love to just chit chat and talk Mouse without feeling like defend my lifestyle (usually from people who know little about it). I realize this is a mainstream message board, but I didn't honest think I would feel like such an outcast here.

Back to being on topic, when HD and I decided to get married/have children, we sat down with one of those cheesy internet questionnaires one day as a joke. It was one of the best things we ever did though. (Copy of one here at - http://premarriagequestionnaire.com/) It led to a great discussion, and had a lot of things that we didn't think about at 25-27. (Ex. Mother/MIL falls at 80 and breaks a hip. How do you manage her treatment?) It wasn't a pretty discussion, but it was eye-opening for sure. We also try to address problems when they arise. The lowest times in our marriage have been a direct result of leaving problems to fester. More than a few marriages are destroyed because someone gets mad about something so little like having to do the dishes every night but never tries to rectify the situation.

 

[ckay87]

I believe part of the problem (for those of you who believe the divorce rate to be an actual problem) is that marriage is portrayed to be the be-all-end-all; the ultimate goal. It should be what you strive for as an adult in your romantic relationships.

I think that's completely wrong. I do not think everyone is cut out for marriage, but I do think everyone is EXPECTED to get married. Or at least try.

One of my best friends is 41 and single. She is very picky about the men she dates, but she is starting to feel like she should just give up and settle with someone. While most people will agree with her, I firmly tell her NO! If she can't stand most of the men she ends up dating, she will despise being married. I got into a debate about her with another friend who insisted "Barb is too picky, she should just marry someone." To this I asked "why?" To which they said "so she has someone to share her life with." To which I asked "why?" And on it went.

Marriage is hard as heck. Just like parenthood, I don't think it's for everyone. But I can totally see how people feel pressured into it.

 

[Disney Doll]

Well, I hope Sue has some better friends, to be honest. Some that may be there for her if she does, indeed, realize that she married a loser.

Not everyone gets it right the first time.

I didn't say I wouldn't be there for her. I said I'd find it hard to feel sorry for her. And I will. A 30-something year old woman ought to have been paying better attention.

I'd expect an 18 or 20 year old to make a bad decision..."not get it right the first time"...not a 32 year old. We're not knitting a sweater here...oops, I dropped a stitch.. oh well. We are talking about a marriage and a family including a child.

 

[tasha99]

:
Originally Posted by Colleen27 View Post
...You said in an earlier post to someone who had been divorced that it sounded like her husband was the one who broke the vows through "emotional abandonment and mental abuse". How would you go about gathering proof of that to satisfy a court?

Suffice to say that it happened to me, and I did.

She did other things, but these were the things that I proved in court. That is why I used them in my example. And this was decades ago - long before some of the modern technology that we have today was available.

It was me who you said that to, and thanks (I agree) but how do you really prove mental abuse? Where is the line drawn? What is awful to one person who is a tender blossom might be okay to someone tougher.

 

[Sparx]

"Shopping around for better deals". Yes, I know people who've done just that.I certainly can't say that.I both agree and disagree. If you're talking about an actively BAD marriage -- abuse, drugs, stuff that no one should have to deal with -- then, yes, it makes sense to get out.

But if there are children involved and it's a matter of, "He's a good father and a good provider, but we just don't feel giddy about one another any longer", then it's better to stay in it at least until the children are grown. Often -- if both partners are working on it -- those downperiods turn out to be just downperiods, and the spouses can pull it back together again. Even if they cannot find in one another that passion that they once had, it's worth it to stay in a ho-hum marriage to avoid putting the kids through all the negatives that come with divorce.

I find these facts hard to believe, given that I know exactly ONE person who's been involved in spousal abuse, and she didn't stay long enough to be injured -- she left. Yes, I understand that it's not something that people would readily admit, but out of all the people I know . . . you'd think I'd know more than ONE.

Most of these are also rather incomplete. For example, the differences in earnings are easily explained by the fact that women tend to choose lower-paying jobs, and they tend to interrupt their careers for family reasons at a higher rate than do men. If you look at statistics that compare men and women with similar educations, work histories, and job responsibilities, those salary differences disappear.

The 35% of ER visits looked suspicious,so I did a google search. South Carolina came up first on the list, and I found that these are the top ten things that brought people into the ER last year:

OTH ABDOMEN/PELVIS SYMP
RESP SYS/OTH CHEST SYMP*
SPRAIN OF BACK NEC/NOS*
BACK DISORDER NEC & NOS*
OTHER CELLULITIS/ABSCESS*
SYMPTOMS INVOL HEAD/NECK*
OTH URINARY TRACT DISOR*
GENERAL SYMPTOMS*
ACUTE PHARYNGITIS
GI SYSTEM SYMPTOMS*

Most of these don't sound like the results of abuse. I mean, no matter how hard you're hit, it's not going to give you breathing problems or a urinary tract disorder.

In short, I don't see my gender as a bunch of poor little victims who need protection. The vast majority of us take care of ourselves very well.

I apologize. Next time I post statistics about the status of women in America, I'll pm you. Your personal experience is definitely the deal breaker on the truth behind my statistics (most of which i derived from the UN published paper "The Status of Women" and a paper presented before the united states congress in 2000, and the rest from my own study on the subject. )

In conclusion, I highly doubt that you only know one person who is the victim of spousal abuse. But then again, with such a vast knowledge of everyone else's lives, you must know exactly what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[Jennasis]

I apologize. Next time I post statistics about the status of women in America, I'll pm you. Your personal experience is definitely the deal breaker on the truth behind my statistics (most of which i derived from the UN published paper "The Status of Women" and a paper presented before the united states congress in 2000, and the rest from my own study on the subject. )

In conclusion, I highly doubt that you only know one person who is the victim of spousal abuse. But then again, with such a vast knowledge of everyone else's lives, you must know exactly what goes on behind closed doors.

I believed your stats and I don't know ANYONE who suffered physical spousal abuse. Probably because I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

 

[Colleen27]

I believed your stats and I don't know ANYONE who suffered physical spousal abuse. Probably because I don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

Also, abusive behaviors are strongly associated with certain social and economic traits, so those of us who are middle or upper class income-wise, married, white, and have friends who are mostly the same aren't likely to know many people who have been abused. Plus white and middle class women are less likely than other groups to report abuse, so the odds are higher that if we know someone who is being abused we wouldn't necessarily be aware of it.

 

[sbell111]

Divorce is hell as is a marriage between two people that can't stand each other - my parents fell into that category.

This post is a recurring theme in this thread. However, in my opinion, it ignores the simple fact that had the two people respected their marriage and continually put work into it, then they likely would have felt differently about one another and their marriage.

People act as if they shouldn't consider working on their marriage until it is ready to be thrown away. The time to begin respecting your spouse and working on your marriage is day one, not the day that you wake up and decide that you want a divorce (or are told that you need one by some jaded stranger on the disboards).