Is it too easy to get divorced?

[DisneyBamaFan]

And exactly who are you to tell me, or anyone else, what I "deserve", in your estimation? Do you hear yourself?

Who am I to have an opinion?

 

[ZeitgeistDuck]

[snip]Statistically speaking, the most damaging financial "mistake" that a married couple can make is getting divorced. When only one of the parties decides to do so in an otherwise healthy marriage (either by walking away or otherwise destroying the marriage), there should be consequences. That was my point. Why should the "innocent" party have to pay equally for the decision of the "guilty"?

I would make the argument that there is neither guilt nor innocence in any divorce. Only two people, both flawed, both imperfect, who cannot make a marriage work. People are such a complex construction of history, temperment, situation, values, morals, desires, emotions and angst, I don't think blame can be assigned.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I would make the argument that there is neither guilt nor innocence in any divorce. Only two people, both flawed, both imperfect, who cannot make a marriage work. People are such a complex construction of history, temperment, situation, values, morals, desires, emotions and angst, I don't think blame can be assigned.

Sorry - this may be true sometimes, but in ALL of the divorces of couples that I know, there has been a "victim". Was the victim perfect? Absolutely not. But they held up their end of the bargain. The other party decided to (fill in the blank - too many to list). I put the word "innocent" in quotes because no one is truly innocent - but that doesn't make them partially responsible for adultery, etc, either.

There may really be cases out there where the couple mutually grew apart, but I haven't seen one (personally) that ended in divorce.

 

[ZeitgeistDuck]

Ok, so in hypothetical example:

Sarah and Ed get married in a big happy joyous union to which they are both committed fully. She is a happy, care free kind of girl. Until right after the wedding. On the wedding night she freaks, refuses intimacy, and revels that she was molested as a child. For better or worse, right? So Sarah gets counseling, and they get couples couseling. Sarah finally reluctantly agrees to be intimate and they get pregnant. She has turned into a bitter, angry, joyless woman, though, as a result of coming out of her fog of denial about her history of abuse. Ed tries to make it work. They do counseling, he tries to make her happy but nothing is good enough for her. She takes the baby and goes to visit her mom for weeks at a time and Ed is loney. He meets a girl at work, they have casual converation and before long he's having feelings for her. He talks to Sarah about a divorce, but she refuses. He talks about going away just the two of them to get the marriage on track, she refuses. He wants to do more counseling, she refuses. Eventually one night Sarah has been at her mom's for two weeks, he weakens and is so desperately lonely, he succumbs to his feelings for a co-worker. Sarah comes home, he confesses to her, and she leaves, taking the baby.

Who is at fault here? Ed, who tried so hard for so long, but ended up having the affair, or frigid, bate-and-switch-at-marriage Sarah?

I know this couple IRL. I will tell you I think Sarah was 50% at fault. I know ED tried EVERYTHING to keep the marriage together until he crashed and burned.

So, who gets the assets and custody in that scenario, the cheater or the witch-with-a-b?

I have six or eight good, close friends who are divorced. Only in one case would I say there was a 'victim'. Even in that case, I think its totally fair that her ex got half the assets. He promised to love, honor and cherish, not to support her in the lifestyle to which she had been accustomed until death. Divorce, even unwanted divorce, is one of the risks of marriage.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

Sorry - this may be true sometimes, but in ALL of the divorces of couples that I know, there has been a "victim". Was the victim perfect? Absolutely not. But they held up their end of the bargain. The other party decided to (fill in the blank - too many to list). I put the word "innocent" in quotes because no one is truly innocent - but that doesn't make them partially responsible for adultery, etc, either.

There may really be cases out there where the couple mutually grew apart, but I haven't seen one (personally) that ended in divorce.

And of course, because you perceive yourself as the "victim" in your failed marriage, there is only black and white. There are two sides to every story. I know where my faults lie. I don't kid myself that I'm the perfect spouse. I'd probably kill me, if I was married to me. I believe there are far more divorces where both parties are at fault, than those where there is a "victim" and a perpetrator. I'm owning my faults and taking responsibilty for my actions (or inactions), but my spouse does not, nor will he ever. FWIW, we've been together almost 26 years, married 17, so please don't tell me I'm not trying. But I can't be in a marriage and make it work, by myself. Sometimes you've just had enough of banging your head against the same wall for so many years. I honestly believe he does the best he can, given the example he was shown growing up, but it's not good enough and I shouldn't have to settle in order to make him happy. I'm still here though, but I hold out no hope or illusions that things will change. But if you ask him, life's great.

TMI for an internet site, maybe, but I don't sugarcoat it. It is what it is, and if he cared enough to be upset about my posting on an internet site, then he should damn well step up and be concerned enough to be make some changes, otherwise, I don't really care.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

And of course, because you perceive yourself as the "victim" in your failed marriage, there is only black and white...

She admits that I was the victim. She did then, she still does now. There is no perception there. Some things really are black and white.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Ok, so in hypothetical example:...So, who gets the assets and custody in that scenario, the cheater or the witch-with-a-b?

This is one in which they both broke their vows. However, his decision to stay with her and try to work through her abuse issues does not make up for his betrayal. IMO, in the end, neither is a victim, though he could have been if he had filed for divorce for cause before he cheated. (it is still cheating if your spouse is a jerk) He lost that card when he broke his vows.

Pretty simple if you remove moral relativism.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I'm still here though, but I hold out no hope or illusions that things will change. But if you ask him, life's great.

TMI for an internet site, maybe, but I don't sugarcoat it. It is what it is, and if he cared enough to be upset about my posting on an internet site, then he should damn well step up and be concerned enough to be make some changes, otherwise, I don't really care.

For the personal side of your post, I agree. Honesty never hurts - even brutal honesty - but if he thinks things are fine, maybe you have not been honest enough with him.

Men do not do subtle. You gals really do have to spell it out for us.

 

[ZeitgeistDuck]

Eh, I don't think anyone outside the marriage gets to decide who is the 'victim'. Most of the time there's just too much that goes on. The marriage vows are pretty vague. My idea of loving, honoring and cherishing might be different than the next guy's. Anyway, I'm glad the state is not in the business of playing marriage ref. Why add one more thing that government fails to do well to its ever expanding list?

 

[chloelovesdisney]

You only have one life to live there's no point spending it with someone that you are not happy with. You should not have to pay with your entire lifetime, that's ridiculous. If I was married to someone that did not make me smile and add joy to my life, yes I would leave. There's no point in simply existing day in and day out because you got married.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

For the personal side of your post, I agree. Honesty never hurts - even brutal honesty - but if he thinks things are fine, maybe you have not been honest enough with him.

Men do not do subtle. You gals really do have to spell it out for us.

Believe me, I've been brutally honest. I've threatened, begged, pleaded, cried, threatened... for years. You can't make someone behave the way you want them to, no matter how badly you want it. I'm making all the mistakes and staying for all the wrong reasons, but the day will come, and he'll be blindsided because he honestly believes my threats of leaving will always be empty threats. Then, of course, when I do leave, he will play the victim, because he's good at that. It's always someone else's fault. He has no sense of taking responsibility for his actions and inactions. I'm just tired of trying to fix it all myself, of always blaming myself. I'll take responsibility for myself, but I won't take responsibility for him. And thanks for the hug and the advice.

 

[JoShan1719]

The problem with marrying young is that at that stage in life many (not all) people are thinking only about feelings and not about the practical things that make a marriage work. They have a "love conquers all" attitude about it, but life doesn't work that way.

Agree. You said it better than I did. I currently work with a girl younger than myself who has been on-again-off-again with her boyfriend for three years. When she became pregnant ten weeks ago suddenly all of their problems disappeared and they are now getting married. Will it work out for them? Maybe, who's to say. But I think they're just so happy with everything now that they aren't really considering everything.

So everyone on the DIS who got divorced did it with much sadness and soul-searching and because of horrific living conditions with rotten abusive &/or cheating spouses. All very good reasons to get divorced and I'm not thinking you'd all get too many people to argue with you.

However, I have heard many of my acquaintances (co-workers, neighbors etc.) make very light of their divorce, so i truly don't think every single divorced person feels it is the emotionally horrifying experience that you all describe. I think some people truly do look at it like it's dating and if it doesn't work for you, for minor reasons, not major ones, then you just break up...oh well...that's life. I think to some people marriage really is no big deal, so the ending of it is also no big deal.

I agree with this statement as well. There are a lot of very good reasons to get divorced. I don't believe you should have to stay in a marriage just because they promised you would. Things happen and people change.

There are a percentage of people, however, who unfortunately choose not to try and find ways to fix their marriage because they're "bored" or things are "hard."

 

[Sparx]

Seriously? You fear this in modern America?

Modern America has twice as many animal shelters as it does battered women's shelters.

Modern America pays a white woman (controlled for experience/education) 80 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a black woman (controlled for experience/education) 70 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a hispanic/latino woman (controlled for experience/education) 60 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern American women face a 50/50 chance of spousal abuse in their lifetime.

A Modern American woman is beaten every five seconds.

Modern American women are killed (60%) of the time by their husbands.

35% of Modern American ER visits are due to spousal abuse by Modern American Men.

40% of Modern American rapes occur in the victim's home.

Only half of Modern American crimes against women are reported to the police.

Modern American women are most likely injured due to domestic violence. More domestic violence injuries happen than any other injury.

1 in 5 female Modern American high school students reports being sexually assaulted by a boyfriend.

6 Million Modern American women will be beaten this year by their Modern American Husbands.

4000 of those Modern American women will be beaten to death.

7 Modern American Fortune 500 companies have female CEOs.

92% of Modern American women do not discuss their domestic violence injuries with a physician.

Yes, I fear victimization of women in Modern America.

 

[Mermaid02]

In regards to your own relationship, have at it. You have no business commenting on the divorce of others. It's none of your business and you will NEVER have all of the facts.

Jennasis- this conversaton isn't about you personally. You seem to be taking it that way. Maybe I titled it wrong- maybe I should have titled it about mid life crises/mid life divorces because that is what I was really speaking of. My thoughts were about the PLETHORA of people my age who I see splitting up. Why is that?

I actually have a dear friend who is divorcing as we speak- I do know she is doing the right thing. I have been her confidant for 20+ years. Divorce certainly has it's place at all ages. The number of those I see splitting in their 40's is what gets me.

 

[Jennasis]

Jennasis- this conversaton isn't about you personally. You seem to be taking it that way. Maybe I titled it wrong- maybe I should have titled it about mid life crises/mid life divorces because that is what I was really speaking of. My thoughts were about the PLETHORA of people my age who I see splitting up. Why is that?

I actually have a dear friend who is divorcing as we speak- I do know she is doing the right thing. I have been her confidant for 20+ years. Divorce certainly has it's place at all ages. The number of those I see splitting in their 40's is what gets me.

Of course I take it personally. You're whole first post made it sound like everyone who divorces is just a quitter taking some easy way out. You finally clarified 12 pages later.

Mid-life crisis is a real problem. But not all mid-life crises lead to divorce.

And yes, divorce numbers are way way up. I will in no way argue that. Is it still 50% of all marriages or has the number gone up?

My personal feeling on why there are so many divorces (including my own)? The stigma is gone, thankfully. People no longer stay in failed, loveless marriages (like my grandparents did) because they felt they they had to or were obligated to. I bet the 40+ crowd are divorcing more often because their own parents and grandparents are too old to interfere with their decisions and make them fell terrible for them or those people are dead altogether.

Divorce is no longer a "scarlet letter".

Of course, if people were a little more careful going IN to the marriage...a little pickier...a little more discerning...a little more sure....a little more careful (and I SOOOOOOOOO include myself in this group), maybe there wouldn't be so many divorces in the first place.

 

[ZeitgeistDuck]

Modern America has twice as many animal shelters as it does battered women's shelters.

Modern America pays a white woman (controlled for experience/education) 80 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a black woman (controlled for experience/education) 70 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern America pays a hispanic/latino woman (controlled for experience/education) 60 cents on the dollar that a white man makes.

Modern American women face a 50/50 chance of spousal abuse in their lifetime.

A Modern American woman is beaten every five seconds.

Modern American women are killed (60%) of the time by their husbands.

35% of Modern American ER visits are due to spousal abuse by Modern American Men.

40% of Modern American rapes occur in the victim's home.

Only half of Modern American crimes against women are reported to the police.

Modern American women are most likely injured due to domestic violence. More domestic violence injuries happen than any other injury.

1 in 5 female Modern American high school students reports being sexually assaulted by a boyfriend.

6 Million Modern American women will be beaten this year by their Modern American Husbands.

4000 of those Modern American women will be beaten to death.

7 Modern American Fortune 500 companies have female CEOs.

92% of Modern American women do not discuss their domestic violence injuries with a physician.

Yes, I fear victimization of women in Modern America.

Exactly! A thousand years of history have taught us about what happens when the law forces unwilling people to stay in bad marraige using the sticks and carrots of economic stability and custody. NOBODY is served well by "punishment" by the state for leaving a marraige.

I'm sure the Romans were sitting around assuring themselves that sacking by the Goths couldn't happen in "modern Rome" too. Yes, women can be, and often are, constrained to stay in very bad marraiges becuase they don't have the money to leave and they fear thier spouse.

There is a huge middle eastern population here in MI and the horror stories I hear... and women are terrified to leave. Here. In modern America.

 

[MissFitt]

That is what needs to end - the point of the thread. If only one wants to walk, they pay. Why should both have to pay for a fickle person's whims?No, there a civil suits every day over this stuff, just like other contracts. And people do sue for breach of promise every day. And the engagement ring is the girl's property if the guy breaks off the engagement.
This is workable, and (IMO) necessary. Just read this thread. Most who have posted really don't value marriage at all. They want to be able to leave at any time. We need to change the marriage contracts to adjust for that attitude. Either that or do away with marriages altogether.

Where do you come up with such bunk? Please do not post statements that are false. Each state's laws are differeing on the subject. I see you are in NJ and NJ law on this subject is similar to where I practice in NY. In NJ an engagement ring is considered a “conditional gift”. In other words, the ring is being given on condition that the parties will be getting married. If the engagement is broken, the condition cannot be met and the ring must be returned. Further, in NJ, the Courts do not consider fault when determining who is entitled to receive the engagement ring. In NJ, if the marriage does not occur and the person giving the engagement ring wants the ring back, the Court will render a ruling requiring return of the ring (or its value if something untoward happens to the ring for example it gets lost or destroyed.) Once the marriage occurs and the condition is met, (regardless of a subsequent divorce), the return of the ring will not be required by the Court.

 

[Mermaid02]

Yesterday upon hearing of yet another couple of our age was divorcing my brother in law said, "Does everyone lose their mind after 40?" We started talking about all the folks who seem to be walking away to start over. Marriage isn't easy, and it isn't all roses and love notes. There are bills and chores and sometimes monotony. People just seem so quick to run to an attorney now. I'm sure some try, I'm sure some don't. I know a couple who is divorcing and it is tearing them both up- but I know another couple and the husband won't even THINK of couples counseling "how will counseling change the way I feel?"

The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, the neighbors just have different crap for fertilizer.

Of course I take it personally. You're whole first post made it sound like everyone who divorces is just a quitter taking some easy way out. You finally clarified 12 pages later.

Mid-life crisis is a real problem. But not all mid-life crises lead to divorce.

And yes, divorce numbers are way way up. I will in no way argue that. Is it still 50% of all marriages or has the number gone up?

My personal feeling on why there are so many divorces (including my own)? The stigma is gone, thankfully. People no longer stay in failed, loveless marriages (like my grandparents did) because they felt they they had to or were obligated to. I bet the 40+ crowd are divorcing more often because their own parents and grandparents are too old to interfere with their decisions and make them fell terrible for them or those people are dead altogether.

Divorce is no longer a "scarlet letter".

Of course, if people were a little more careful going IN to the marriage...a little pickier...a little more discerning...a little more sure....a little more careful (and I SOOOOOOOOO include myself in this group), maybe there wouldn't be so many divorces in the first place.

Please re-read my original post- it specifically talks about people over 40. I thought I was clear from the start that is what I was talking about.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Where do you come up with such bunk? Please do not post statements that are false...

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Yes, I fear victimization of women in Modern America.

Nice straw man. Now maybe we can get back on topic. If there is a victim in family court, it is the father.