Is it possible for someone to tell me (WITHOUT DEBATE!)...

WIcruizer said:
They support the right of abortion to term, and even post-term.
?
I don't know of a single pro-choice person who supports abortion on demand to full term.I won't even dginify the post-Term comment with a rebuttal
 
don't know of a single pro-choice person who supports abortion on demand to full term.I won't even dginify the post-Term comment with a rebuttal

Interesting, I didn't even say that to generate debate. I thought it was a pretty standard known fact. The leaders of the Pro Choice movement absolutely believe in abortion on demand to full term, and even post term. That's not a secret is it?
 
I am pro-choice because I believe a woman should have the right to make decisions about her own body, not our government/policticians, or others. I believe that we should have a "choice" in what we do. That choice should not be made others, especially men. (just my own opinion)
In cases of rape or possible death there should be no question. I don't think adoption is always the answer either, there are too many unwanted children in this world now. I do NOT believe in termination on demand as someone else posted. that is a very generalized statement. There are fanatics on both sides.
I believe in Roe v Wade and the fact we have the right to make our own choices.
wow...you picked a touchy subject to talk (not debate). :)
 
WIcruizer said:
Interesting, I didn't even say that to generate debate. I thought it was a pretty standard known fact. The leaders of the Pro Choice movement absolutely believe in abortion on demand to full term, and even post term. That's not a secret is it?
Got anything to back up those claims?
Are you claiming that the pro-choice movement is in favor of the killing of newborm babies and small children?
 

Got anything to back up those claims?

When I have a few minutes, sure. But I don't know who else would argue that Pro Choice leaders support post term abortion.
 
WIcruizer said:
When I have a few minutes, sure. But I don't know who else would argue that Pro Choice leaders support post term abortion.
Post -term... That means AFTER birth..You know that,right? As in Post Mortum..After death
 
I am pro-choice because I believe a woman should have the right to make decisions about her own body, not our government/policticians, or others. I believe that we should have a "choice" in what we do. That choice should not be made others, especially men. (just my own opinion)

I do NOT believe in termination on demand as someone else posted.

Just asking... Don't you consider these two statements contradictory? If it's a woman's body, and her choice then why can't she have termination on demand? Or would you agree that government should at least have some control?
 
WIcruizer said:
Just asking... Don't you consider these two statements contradictory? If it's a woman's body, and her choice then why can't she have termination on demand? Or would you agree that government should at least have some control?
I actually think they should have more control than they do now,in some cases...While I don't believe life starts at conception,I do believe it starts in the womb..Outside of serious medical issues,I don't think abortions should be legal past 20 weeks or so. I also think anyone having an abortion after maybe 14 week and 20 or so should have a VERY good reason...I think the age of viability is moving back,and as such the law should reflect that.
 
WIcruizer said:
Interesting, I didn't even say that to generate debate. I thought it was a pretty standard known fact. The leaders of the Pro Choice movement absolutely believe in abortion on demand to full term, and even post term. That's not a secret is it?

As for full term, that's only some of the leaders, and specifically that's usually to cover situations where the woman is in danger or the child has no chance but to suffer after birth.
 
WIcruizer said:
That's what's funny about the Pro Choice, Pro Life "labels." Most Pro Choice people would not agree with your determination. They support the right of abortion to term, and even post-term. Just as many Pro Life people wouldn't call me Pro Life because I believe in contraception and I don't believe "life" begins the minute of conception.

I would argue it's the exact opposite of what you've said. Only a few extreme people on both sides are arguing for what you're describing. The majority of everyone else is somewhere in the middle.
 
WIcruizer said:
That's what's funny about the Pro Choice, Pro Life "labels." Most Pro Choice people would not agree with your determination. They support the right of abortion to term, and even post-term. Just as many Pro Life people wouldn't call me Pro Life because I believe in contraception and I don't believe "life" begins the minute of conception.



And that's where the moral question comes in. Is a woman's convenience a greater moral right than the right of the unborn to live?

I guess that's the power of how you frame the question. Personally, I wouldn't call it convenience. I'd call it the right to determiniation of what is done with one's body. Sort of the same right that makes slavery wrong. Now, I'm not disagreeing that some abortions are done for convenience. But I don't think that that is what the right is based on.

It also really is the extreme position of the prochoice viewpoint to believe in abortions up to the moment of birth. I personally don't know anyone who believes that. I really don't feel that by calling myself 'prochoice' I'm then obligated to defend the extremes of the viewpoint. Just as a minority, I believe, of pro-life people would consider an IUD or BCP the equivilent of a therapeutic abortion.
 
KimR said:
I have a question for a Christians who are against abortion...particularly those who are against abortion but think contraception is ok (and yes I know this is a strange question but I am seriously trying to understand this point of view): :confused3

In the bible, it states that murder is wrong, but it doesn't really state that we should try to prevent pregnancies. It does say to be fruitful and multiply, but it doesn't really talk about preventative measures for pregnancies, does it? I read that bible and I don't remember seeing that anywhere in there. But I could be wrong.

I do think abortion is wrong, but I am pro choice because I think women should have the right to decide. Having said that, I think the real heart of the issue for me is, why are so many of our women in the situation of needing abortions?

I feel we need to go beyond the debate of whether abortion should be illegal or legal, if it's wrong or right, and take a look at why it is happening in the first place. Too many people are putting themselves in the situation of needing/wanting abortions and this is what I think should be focused on. And please don't flame me for saying this-I know it is controversial and pretty radical. But if women weren't faced with an unwanted pregnancy, the number of abortions would decline.
 
RachelEllen said:
I can try to address this. Not that my view, of course, speaks for everyone who is pro-choice, but I still believe it is possible to logically address that point. (in a really long winded way, granted)

I think the right of abortion doesn't dervice from the fetus not being a living being. I think it derives from a conflict of the rights of the fetus and the mother. When I speak of rights, they are in no sense absolute. Absolute rights would be simple. Most ethical conflicts come about because there are two sets of rights which are in conflict. In this case, the fetus has a right to life which is in conflict with the mother's right to determine the use of her own body.

Current law would therefore support that the mother's right to use of her body overrules the fetus's right to live. Confusion arises when people try to solve this conflict by stating that it is purely based on the strength or weakness of the fetus's right to live. That is, if the fetus is a 'human being' it has a 100% right to live. If the fetus is not a 'human being' it has a 0% right to live. I believe that is oversimplifying matters and creates the confusions that you referred to.

Imagine an analogous case. (I want to put in a disclaimer here. I've used this argument before and been accused of trivializing abortion. This is purely an analogy based on a similar conflict of rights. I'm not at all saying these are morally equivilent situations. ) Let's say you had a kidney disease that neccessitated trasnplant in order to prevent your death. For the sake of argument, transplant is the only treatment which will work. Unfortunately, you have a very rare blood type. So rare, in fact, that only one person could provide you with that transplant. Are they morally obligated to? You will die without the transplant. Your right to live is in conflict with their rights to the use of their own body. Most people, I think, would say that while giving you the kidney would be a good thing to do, we shouldn't legally require the person to do that thing. That is, we would say that that person has the absolute right to determine who gets use of their body.

Now, the abortion issue is complicated by the fact that the mother caused the conflict in the first place. She, except in the case of rape, was involved somehow in the conflict of rights occuring. That's another dimension to the argument, and while important, doesn't really bare on your original question. (and this is long enough without going there.)

So, anyone, that's the conflict of rights. That's why, I believe, someone else could be charged with killing the fetus. They have no right in conflict with the fetus. Even if, in relation to the mother's right to her body, the fetus's right to live is lesser, it is still no small thing in and of itself. And when that conflict is taken out of the picture, another person has no right to kill that fetus. After viability, the conflict is also gone. The fetus can be 'removed' from the mother without killing it. Once that can happen, there is no conflict in rights.

Based on this, personally, I'm in favor of the right of abortion until medical viability (currently 23 weeks gestation).
Very well reasoned and stated. Even if I may not agree with your ultimate position, I respect your thoughtfulness. Rarely are moral questions simple.
 
Outside of serious medical issues,I don't think abortions should be legal past 20 weeks or so. I also think anyone having an abortion after maybe 14 week and 20 or so should have a VERY good reason

But that's not the law. So I'm assuming you don't fall into the category of keep Roe v Wade exactly as it is today?

As for full term, that's only some of the leaders, and specifically that's usually to cover situations where the woman is in danger or the child has no chance but to suffer after birth.
With all due respect, it's far more than just some of the leaders. And they never qualify that by saying "only when a woman is in danger"


Rachel, not trying to be argumentative, I just really want to understand your position..

Just asking... Don't you consider these two statements contradictory? If it's a woman's body, and her choice then why can't she have termination on demand? Or would you agree that government should at least have some control?

Because it seems like you're saying it's completely a woman's right, then you say you don't agree with abortion to term (in most cases I'm assuming.)

So it really shouldn't entirely be a woman's choice? You would agree there are larger moral questions beyond the bumper sticker "My body, my choice?"
 
Too many people are putting themselves in the situation of needing/wanting abortions and this is what I think should be focused on.

I agree, and someone brought this up earlier as well. That begins the contraception vs abstainance (sp?) debate. So be careful what you ask for!
 
KimR said:
No, you don't agree with me! :) I said former and I meant latter. I need to go back and fix that. I guess what I am saying is that based on your beliefs, in my opinion, it seems it would better for that sould to die as an embryo through an abortion and live forever in heaven than never to exist all.

You asked earlier when I believe life begins and where aborted babies go. I can't really say exactly when I believe life begins. And by that I mean when the unborn baby can be considered a 'person'...a living thing with a soul. I can't pinpoint an exact time. I do believe it happens sometime before birth but certainly not within the first few weeks. I would say at whatever point it is that the baby has a functioning brain and nervous system; otherwise the soul has no awareness. I would imagine it is a gradual process, but I don't know enough about fetal development to pointpoint an exact time. And as for where aborted babies go...in most cases (very early abortions)I don't think they 'go' anywhere - there is no soul involved. As for later abortions or stillbirths...I really don't know.
Yes, I guess that is a big difference between "former" and "latter."

You say the soul has no awareness, thus it's not life. How do you know the soul needs physical awareness? What is your basis for that? The soul isn't something physical, is it?
 
WIcruizer said:
I agree, and someone brought this up earlier as well. That begins the contraception vs abstainance (sp?) debate. So be careful what you ask for!
Hokie agrees. He thinks those women are just too loose. Must be that parthogenesis thing again - all conceptions are by those who know not man
 
WIcruizer said:
With all due respect, it's far more than just some of the leaders. And they never qualify that by saying "only when a woman is in danger"

Some meaning not all. No percentage implied, but I do believe the majority are in favor of limits.

And yes, some do qualify limits so never is incorrect.
 
WIcruizer said:
I agree, and someone brought this up earlier as well. That begins the contraception vs abstainance (sp?) debate. So be careful what you ask for!

But at least with the contraception vs. abstinence debate, a fetus or embro isn't terminated.
 
I'm still waiting for an explanation of what exactly a "post-term" abortion is. Is it the right to kill your 13 year old because she is driving you crazy? I like that idea. :rotfl2:
 


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