Is Free Dining dumbing down the menus?

[bicker]

I have no anger toward Disney regarding this issue. None.

I didn't say you did. I said you were rationalizing anger, not that that anger was yours.

Really, at this point, we have come down to a fundamental philosophical difference about the roles and responsibilities of big business and the "little guy".

Indeed. I just mentioned this in another thread... something that came to mind after a discussion with my mother. "Back in the day" consumers who didn't like something didn't buy it. That gave consumers power. Now, it seems, many people simply cannot deny themselves. They are utterly unwilling to "do without" regardless of what they're offered or for how much. Those folks are voluntarily sacrificing the power they would otherwise have as consumers.

I'm leaving for WDW late Saturday night, and I fully intend to enjoy my stay, and all of my meals on the dining plan

Have a great time!

 

[MissionMouse]

How many theme park restaurant customers are looking for leisurely, fine dining? ... My guess the majority of guests, particularly those with young children, want to eat and run...

Before DDP TS restaurants were just that...fine dining at your pace. We actually do not do the DDP for a variety of reasons. Limited TS tickets and we don't do CS due to their unhealthy food offerings as a whole. For us a TS restaurants is a Pit Stop for parents. A time to rest, relax and enjoy a nice meal. It is not a eat and run establishment since this is the purpose of CS and Snack Bar dining options.

Overall, I am surprise this thread is going on and on. There is no real debate here. This is not about economic social status. This is basic business principles here. WDW has built numerous TS restaurants based upon quality and service to get people in the door for years. Their reputation is based upon menu, quality and service.

Change the structure of your operation...like DDP to get the restaurants to near capacity throughout the year and you now are able to increase profits while providing a new group of patrons with "value and worth." Quality and service is no longer required to the same level, since DDP secures diners. Quality and service are now two components which may be adjusted to increase profits. Monitor the sales of DDP and closely analysis the DDP utlization. What people are eating and the cost. This allows Disney manage to ensure their making a profit. Disney is making a profit with "Free" Dining too and its not free. Guest are paying for this program through a series of increased cost spread across various areas of their operation.

WDW can now alter quality, menus, service since the reputations are in place and with a new population of reviewers they will continue to get good reviews. The only thing is that these reviews/rating do not align to the established reputation. Most new reviews will not correlate to past reviews/reputations prior to DDP, especially since most under DDP are selecting this vacation option for value and worth.

We are seeing across aheightened cost control and increase profits across Disney's operation...that has the potential to increase their capital...

I am curious if Disney has some large construction project on the horizon?

 

[bicker]

Before DDP TS restaurants were just that...fine dining at your pace.

And the restaurants were comparatively empty, unequivocally a lesser situation for restaurants.

Quality and service are now two components which may be adjusted to increase profits.

They always have been. The difference isn't with the "components that can be adjusted", but rather with the effectiveness in the marketplace of adjusting the various components -- in other words, the customers have changed; what drives them to make purchases has changed.

and with a new population of reviewers they will continue to get good reviews.

This is a critical point. I'm not sure how much overlap there has been between the folks who used to enjoy Disney dining, and the folks who enjoy Disney dining today, but there is some -- but that doesn't matter. The complaints from those who don't like Disney dining today validate the fact that more people are enjoying Disney Dining today than in the past.

 

[johnsonet]

... Change the structure of your operation...like DDP to get the restaurants to near capacity throughout the year and... Quality and service is no longer required to the same level, since DDP secures diners... Most new reviews will not correlate to past reviews/reputations prior to DDP, especially since most under DDP are selecting this vacation option for value and worth.

Excellent point.

Personally, I'm not looking for "value" when I dine at my favorite WDW Signature restaurants. I look at those meals at Jiko or CG or Flying Fish as luxuries. I want something special amid the crazy pace of my fairly frequent WDW trips... a delicious meal, nice atmosphere, good service. Certainly I do appreciate the value of my DDE card.

I'm glad more people are getting to experience those restaurants and that the restaurants are doing more business (although it must be hell for the servers, especially when their tips are "included" when it comes to the DDP) but I wonder what the end result of these changes in quality will be... and still miss the "good old days"

 

[ursijam]

I have always liked the idea that WDW have seperate menus at the restaurants for guests on the DDP and for guests not on the DDP. I know it will never happen, but why should guests who are not on the DDP pay for food which is not up to WDW standards?

Ok, I cannot just sit by and not comment any longer.

This should be the last post on this, since I have it all figured out.

There are many fine dining establishments that offer a fixed price option on their menus. It is all-inclusive and offers many of the same things that are on the regular menu. It does not offer all of the things that are on the menu and that is extremely important for the restaurant and the diners.

I do not know what the actual amount creditted to the restaurant is for a TS meal, but it is the same for all of them (except for Signature which are the same among them). That is the fundamental problem. If restaurant A serves chicken and pasta and restaurant B serves duck and steak they get paid the same even if the cost of the ingredients is wildly different.

So, the obvious choice is for restaurant A to improve their menu to the standards of restaurant B...

Ooops. That isn't what happened. Restaurant B figures if we are getting the same amount, then the most obvious choice is to reduce the quality of the food.

This doesn't have anything to do with the class of people dining, it is simple economics. This is why there was a problem with communism. Why should I work harder if I do not get ahead or any benefit from that? I should lower myself to the same mediocrity as those around me. That is the most efficient use of resources and effort. This is not caused by "free" dining, but it is caused by the DDP which does not reward restaurants for being better, but to strive for mediocrity. (Or even the lowest level possible before someone screams... As long as at least one restaurant is willing to lower quality/quantity/value, they will all do it.)

You may feel free to flame away, but I don't think that I am wrong.

 

[bicker]

Yeah, you're wrong.

The restaurants and the Dining Plan itself -- they're just doing what customers reward them for doing.

 

[tony609]

Without wadeing thru all these posts......

You can't actually finger the DDP or Free DDP as the cause. Thats just generalizing that this is the cause. Couldn't other things have caused the decline in food at WDW

1) streamlining, trying to make things easier in a fast enviroment.

2)Cutting cost, by buying cheaper quality....this is done ALL over in the resturaunt biz I am sure. Think outside WDW. haven't you ever went to a resturaunt and eaten there and it was fab, but went back a bit later and it was awful? The resturaunt didn't add a DDP.

3) Sometimes the quality of certain things just isn't avalable at certain times of year.

4)Menus change to add variety, something new to the menu. Some change with the season.

5)Also resturaunts, especailly at WDW have to get you in and out.They relay on the turnover of people. The serving staff especially for the gratuity.

I have never done the DDP or Free DDP before, this fall will be our first expirence with it.

 

[Katiebell]

OK...don't know if this has been mentioned before -- I may be repeating another's suggestion...

But I don't think it's fair at all to give the DDP guests a separate menu. There are already a few restaurants that have excluded a couple of specific expensive items on their menu from the DDP, and that's reasonable.

*putting on my flame suit just in case* I think the 2 TS restaurants should all be taken off the DDP. They are generally a poor value for 2 TS credits anyway. Guests on the DDP can still go to Jiko, Citricos, Narcoossee's, etc, but it would be the same as going to Bistro, Fulton's, WP upstairs, bluezoo, Shula's, etc. and would be an OOP meal. I think the 2 TS shows like HDDR, the luau, the BBQ, and even CRT should still be on the plan (family oriented experiences, not upscale dining) even if they aren't the best value for 2 credits.

Would this work? Maybe there are some reasons not to that I haven't thought of. I'd start a poll on a separate thread if I could figure out how...

 

[ursijam]

But I don't think it's fair at all to give the DDP guests a separate menu. There are already a few restaurants that have excluded a couple of specific expensive items on their menu from the DDP, and that's reasonable.

I think that we can (sort of) agree on this. I don't think that there should be a DIFFERENT menu for the DDP, just not the WHOLE menu. We are already seeing the more expensive entrees come off of it, I don't think that it is unreasonable to be able to limit the choices of appetizers and desserts as well. So, it would be the same items as the regular menu, but just not all of them. I think that would help the restaurant in terms of capacity planning and allow for them to have "signature" or "specialty" items still on there.

I think that you could still have a good selection. (e.g., choose from three appetizers, four entrees, and three desserts)

 

[Chloe'sMom]

I don't know if the DDP is to blame or not. What I do know is that for us the dining was a big part of our trip and we saved our pennies so that we could afford it. So for me the value isn't there anymore if I'm going to pay $27.00 for a steak at Le Cellier it better be the qualify of a $27.00 steak! And I think that is where those of us who used TS BEFORE the DDP get upset. We are still spending the same money but not getting the quality. Therefore a lot of resturants didn't make our ADR list this year. Ohana's got dropped off because they got rid of the shrimp. I eat there for the shrimp, if they aren't serving it then I don't want to eat there.

We actually plan on doing more counter service this year. Something fast and easy. Also since we'll have a car we plan to go off site and eat as well. We aren't big souveneir buyers so in fact because of the poor quality we will be spending less money then usual.

I guess I should be thankful.

But I agree with Katiebell - I think the 2 TS ticket resturants should be removed.

~Amanda

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

How many theme park restaurant customers are looking for leisurely, fine dining? Maybe at Bistro? My guess the majority of guests, particularly those with young children, want to eat and run. Just tell your server you're not in a rush. Even the waiters at 50's Prime Time Cafe won't clear your plate while you're still eating. Just don't give your dessert order until you finish your lunch if you're in a rush.

We used to enjoy dining....now it is eating I keep repeating this because I think this point keeps getting missed. I also take issue that if you have children with you you just want to eat and run, that is not always the case and it certainly isn't in our case.
If you want to eat and run why wouldn't you use a CS?
Disney of course is looking at the money they have flowing in due to all their changes and packing TS with people that were never there before. Take it or leave it the DDP seems to be drawing a particular crowd they have literally have forgotten the people that kept the quality restaurants thriving and getting wonderful reviews for many years and IMO that is ashame....

 

[bicker]

*putting on my flame suit just in case* I think the 2 TS restaurants should all be taken off the DDP.

That doesn't sound like that controversial of a change to me. I'm not sure it would make much of a difference either way, though.

 

[Alice Sr.]

I don't know if the DDP is to blame or not. What I do know is that for us the dining was a big part of our trip and we saved our pennies so that we could afford it. So for me the value isn't there anymore if I'm going to pay $27.00 for a steak at Le Cellier it better be the qualify of a $27.00 steak! And I think that is where those of us who used TS BEFORE the DDP get upset. We are still spending the same money but not getting the quality. Therefore a lot of resturants didn't make our ADR list this year...
We actually plan on doing more counter service this year. Something fast and easy. Also since we'll have a car we plan to go off site and eat as well. We aren't big souveneir buyers so in fact because of the poor quality we will be spending less money then usual...
~Amanda

I completely agree with you. We always lived for choosing and making our ADR's, that was a huge part of our trip. This next trip we aren't making one. We have felt like we have been served upscale cafeteria food for the last couple of years. We always rented a car until they came out with the ME. I hadn't really thought about renting so we could eat off-site but that is an excellent idea.

Alice

 

[Lewisc]

Disney is able to charge a premium price for their restaurants. They have a captive audience and a premium location. The price premium doesn't go for food.

I'd expect a $27 steak at Le Cellier to be equivalent to $15-$20 steak back home. The steaks at Le Cellier are at least as good as Outback and that's about all I'd expect.

The steaks at Le Cellier were never as good as a "real" steakhouse like The Palm. I ate at Le Cellier before the dining plan and during the dining plan. I didn't notice a noticeable drop in the quality of the steak.

I don't know if the DDP is to blame or not. What I do know is that for us the dining was a big part of our trip and we saved our pennies so that we could afford it. So for me the value isn't there anymore if I'm going to pay $27.00 for a steak at Le Cellier it better be the qualify of a $27.00 steak! And I think that is where those of us who used TS BEFORE the DDP get upset. We are still spending the same money but not getting the quality. Therefore a lot of resturants didn't make our ADR list this year. Ohana's got dropped off because they got rid of the shrimp. I eat there for the shrimp, if they aren't serving it then I don't want to eat there.

We actually plan on doing more counter service this year. Something fast and easy. Also since we'll have a car we plan to go off site and eat as well. We aren't big souveneir buyers so in fact because of the poor quality we will be spending less money then usual.

I guess I should be thankful.

But I agree with Katiebell - I think the 2 TS ticket resturants should be removed.

~Amanda

 

[johnsonet]

We always rented a car until they came out with the ME.

BINGO! That's exactly what they want - for you to never leave Disney property.

 

[Katiebell]

That doesn't sound like that controversial of a change to me. I'm not sure it would make much of a difference either way, though.

Well...presumably, those restaurants would not be as crowded because many of the DDP customers may select restaurants that accept the plan, maybe paying OOP for one special meal during their whole trip at a signature restaurant. Also, everyone that is concerned that the DDP is what is causing the loss of quality in the signature restaurants...either the quality would improve (we don't hear nearly as many complaints about V&A, bluezoo, Shula's, Bistro, Puck's Upstairs, Fulton's, and the other non-plan restaurants), or it would settle the controversy once and for all that the changes are across the board changes to dining, and the dining plan is not causing the changes.

 

[Lewisc]

I suspect Disney loves full restaurants. I suspect Disney would run some other promotion to fill signature restaurants if they stopped taking the dining plan. Alternately Disney might just close the restaurants 2 nights a week, like they sometimes do at Citricos.

Look at the numbers at a Signature restaurant. Assume 2 TS credits are valued at around $55. Assume at least the 20% DDP but more like a 30-50% discount in exchange for pre-payment and for a quantity discount. DDP guests really aren't getting a "great deal" at signature restaurants.

Disney could remove one or more signature restaurants from the DDP. Re-price the restaurant to be more expensive then the current signature restaurants but less than V&A. Like all restaurants at WDW these restaurants would be priced at a premium compared to what a comparable restaurant would cost at home.

The same "foodies" would be complaining that Disney is charging too much in order compensate for the money Disney is losing with the dining plan.

Well...presumably, those restaurants would not be as crowded because many of the DDP customers may select restaurants that accept the plan, maybe paying OOP for one special meal during their whole trip at a signature restaurant. Also, everyone that is concerned that the DDP is what is causing the loss of quality in the signature restaurants...either the quality would improve (we don't hear nearly as many complaints about V&A, bluezoo, Shula's, Bistro, Puck's Upstairs, Fulton's, and the other non-plan restaurants), or it would settle the controversy once and for all that the changes are across the board changes to dining, and the dining plan is not causing the changes.

 

[Chloe'sMom]

Disney is able to charge a premium price for their restaurants. They have a captive audience and a premium location. The price premium doesn't go for food.

I'd expect a $27 steak at Le Cellier to be equivalent to $15-$20 steak back home. The steaks at Le Cellier are at least as good as Outback and that's about all I'd expect.

The steaks at Le Cellier were never as good as a "real" steakhouse like The Palm. I ate at Le Cellier before the dining plan and during the dining plan. I didn't notice a noticeable drop in the quality of the steak.

I'll agree that a $27.00 steak at Le Cellier is equal to a $15 to $120 steak at home but I also figure your paying for the atmosphere. When we use to eat at Le Cellier's it was this quite, soft lighted resturant with remarkable service. The reviews these days do not equal that kind of atmosphere. I myself experienced the CA Grill after DDP. Crowded, no longer a romantic place to sit back and enjoy some fine dining (and I would consider the CA Grill to be fine dining) with an amazing view. I'll never eat there the night of fireworks again.

~Amanda