IS Disney still broken?

Peter Pirate

Its not the end of civilization...But you can see
Joined
Dec 19, 1999
Messages
2,656
The Parks and Resorts are busy again. The movies have their ups and downs. Animation is spotty and there is still no 'make up' with Pixar. Yet Eisner is still there, the stock is neither climbing or declining. They fought off a hostile takeover. WDW has opened quite a few new attractions and has quite a few 'biggies' soon coming. DL has Ouimet and Emmer stirring the pot...What's going on? Is it business as usual at Disney? Will there be another roar from Roy and Stanley at next years meeting?

It just seems like so much has happened and been said and predicted yet nothing too significant has changed has it? Isn't it the same Disney just moving slowly forward as usual?
pirate:
 
As long as my stock price hovers in the mid 20's, my dividend continues unchanged for years, and the current management philosophy prevails, I will consider it broken.
 
Fair enough from the personal financial standpoint, Mr. Show. But does it change the guest experience significantly? Are we really worse off than 10 years ago? Will it be the end of Disney if the current philosophy remains? If so, when will that happen because nothing seems to changing significantly in the big picture?
pirate:
 
Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Fair enough from the personal financial standpoint, Mr. Show. But does it change the guest experience significantly? Are we really worse off than 10 years ago? Will it be the end of Disney if the current philosophy remains? If so, when will that happen because nothing seems to changing significantly in the big picture?
pirate:

If that's TRULY what you see, then you are NOT a big picture person. It seems to me that you are looking at it from strictly the point of view as to whether or not it is affecting YOUR vacation.

I can go on and on about the things that are signaling a decline of the Disney company. But to EACH one of those, I will get a "Yeah, but..." from you.

Oh heck, I'm bored, so I'll go on about it.

Adventureland opens one hour after the rest of the park. This is home to two classic Disney attractions - one of which still is pulling significant numbers. This would be BAD SHOW. But that apparently has absolutely no meaning to the current management regime. Now - I have NEVER been to the Magic Kingdom at park opening. So does this decision affect me? Not in the slightest! But that does NOT change the fact that it's bad show. It's against Disney's (the man - not the corporation) philosophy. Sure - people can come back later to see those attractions, but again - it's simply bad show.

Restaurants close an hour before the rest of the park. There are tons of other places that people can go to eat! This does NOT affect me in the least. But the fact remains that it's bad show. Plain and simple. Both of these decisions were made based on the bottom line mentality and philosophy.

A rude cast member acts as though I'm impositioning him. So what? I'm at Disney World! It doesn't really affect my day. But it's bad show. There are more and more of these rude people around.

These are three mere examples that are proving to me that yes, Disney is breaking. You can liken it to a pipe. It has a crack. There's a drip. Nothing major. Throw some tape over it, and temporarily correct the problems. The water is still getting to the rest of the house. But then another crack happens. More tape. But the first batch of tape is loosening. You can see that crack again. The water's still flowing to the rest of the house, but the quality of that one pipe is slowly deteriorating. Instead of fixing the problem, and replacing the pipe, more and more tape is added. And perhaps - you may throw a potted plant or a nice knick-knack next to that pipe. It makes it look a lot better, but it does NOT change the fact that the pipe is slowly breaking. It may take a hell of a long time, but eventually, that pipe is going to give, and the water will NOT flow to the rest of the house unless something is done to salvage that pipe.

There is NO denying that Disney still does what it does better than anybody else that tries to imitate it. But all these teeny, insignificant things begin to add up. Until there comes a point when you can't hide it anymore, and that metaphorical pipe comes crashing down, and it is beyond repair. You can add new rides all you want. The Six Flags nearest Buffalo puts in a new ride almost every year. But that doesn't mean that the park is improving in quality, or coming close to the caliber of Disney.

Disney may not be entirely broken. But as Show said - until there is a philosophy change, it's certainly not in good repair, and is on it's way to being broken.
 

Dan, despite the fact that you already think you know my response...I'll respond anyway. I don't really disagree with the cracks and negative changes that you've outlined and personally I have a list of my own (surprised?). I can't stand that HoND & Doug were kicked out of The Studios with no replacement or that Tapestry no longer exists at Epcot. I find it ridiculous that Future World closes prior to the rest of Epcot and that Adventureland opens later and that the traffic conditions at WDW are spiriling out of control. There! Personally I'm not that different from you despite your belief that I only see things through tunnel vision...

My point though, is when is this disaster that Disney is becoming really going to happen? When are the people going to see through the magic mirrors and marketing genius and realize that Disney really does suck? Doesn't it matter that this hasn't happened despite all of the protestations of severe deterioration here on these boards? Perhaps these changes are just evolution...And this doesn't mean I endorse them or am happy about them, but I keep hearing about decline, decline, decline yet it doesn't seem so obvious to most visitors.

If it becomes true that Jobs really does want to reup with Disney look for a wholesale surge in Eisner confidence...I'm just saying that itall seems relative, doesn't it?
pirate:
 
Originally posted by Peter Pirate
When are the people going to see through the magic mirrors and marketing genius and realize that Disney really does suck?

Where did anyone say that Disney sucked? As a matter of fact, I had recently posted on a completely different thread:

What I tried to say in an earlier post is that those of us who are criticizing aren't doing so because we dislike Disney, or we think that because of these slip-ups that it's now on the same level as Six Flags. I can't speak for brunette, but when I talk about the way these things are slipping it's because I care so deeply about the company. Disney is the cadillac of theme park experiences. But these small, seemingly insignificant things, really can add up, and it scares me to think that management is allowing these things to happen. I'm scared that the Disney we know and love may not be around for my children, my children's children, and so on.

My point though, is when is this disaster that Disney is becoming really going to happen?

I will give Eisner credit in this instance, but does the fact that Comcast - out of NOWHERE - made a bid for the entire Disney corporation mean anything? It does to me. They made a bid that would have saddled them (comcast) with some billion dollars in debt. I think that's pretty fair proof that Disney's cracks are beginning to show.

Perhaps these changes are just evolution...And this doesn't mean I endorse them or am happy about them, but I keep hearing about decline, decline, decline yet it doesn't seem so obvious to most visitors.

I don't think that this is fair proof of anything. Most people that visit Disney World are not nearly as obsessive as the people that debate these finer points. And yes, they make up the major percentage of Disney's guest base - and that's why management thinks its okay to let the quality slip - because those people don't know any different. But for people that HAVE been visiting since Disneyland opened in '55 and Disney World opened in '71 (and those of us that have read about it and learned about it cause we weren't around for those opening festivities) - we know that the quality is slipping, and ebbing farther away from the standards that Walt Disney set.

And that's my point. (As my fiancée sits over my shoulder and says "If it's so bad, then why are we going?!") It still is the best of the best. But how much longer will it remain that way if management and/or their philosophies don't change? That's my point.
 
OK Dan, I think we're understanding each other...Or at least I am you.

I don't dispute any of your feelings in fact I'm one of those who lament things gone by (as I said) but I'm wondering is are we going to simply suffer the same fate of the dinosaur? I mean you admitted that we Disney geeks are only a small percentage of the actual Disney guest list and as time marches on our numbers will dwindle and our voices weaken, but Disney as it is will continue, no?

What I feel is that those who cry out the loudest "oh, what Walt do" are really just killing themselves for Walt is long gone, the Company is on auto piolet and there is a new breed of Disney lovers do not find dismay in the ancient history of things left behind.

I think I'm saying that while Disney may be showing cracks in the perceptions we old timers have, it ultimately doesn't mean much and it will probably never bring down the Company who lives on the personna of Walt and the 'Disney dream'. They need enoughof the magic to sustain the entity and thats probably where it will remain. Which means it'll always be better than the rest but never the same as it was...

What do you think?
pirate:
 
Pirate - I see where you're coming from. I don't have any other response for you other than to make sure that you understand that I'm not looking to take away anybody's right to think that Disney is the best it has ever been - as long as they've been visiting.

Viking - the cracks are getting consistently bigger. I don't believe the damage is irreversable - but it's going to take some management shifts to get things back to where they were.
 
In your first post, you refered to three problems: Adventureland, Early closings and rude CM. The first two are easy enough to fix and can be fixed in a moments notice. Rude CM's..... whole different can of worms.

Other cracks seem seem to be getting fixed. About a year ago Baron posted about the observation deck at CR being closed to non-Cal Grill guests. Well, in Oct and Dec, it was open to anybody.Charactor Caravan was a bust, they brought back EE.

1995 was my first trip to WDW. I saw no cracks, but I had no idea what I was looking at. I would assume the same holds true for those who visited in 1971 also. Even the most vocal Car 3 riders admit that DL & WDW have had there cracks throughout the years. Maybe years ago management cared more about fixing the cracks because of the philosophy rather then profit.

***"Viking - the cracks are getting consistently bigger."***

I disagree, I think they're starting to heal. When we were there in May, it seemed that everywhere you looked, you could see money being invested in The World... and I'm not talking about just new E-rides. I think things are on the mend, not getting worse.
 
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
In your first post, you refered to three problems: Adventureland, Early closings and rude CM. The first two are easy enough to fix and can be fixed in a moments notice. Rude CM's..... whole different can of worms.

Easily implemented solutions. The problem is getting them implemented. Before I even continue to respond to your post, you are speaking of fixing the symptoms. That's like having a bacterial infection and taking a decongestant. Sure, the stuffy nose will be gone - but that same problem will either be back, or a new problem will arise. The infection itself has to be taken care of with an anti-biotic. You need to fix the PROBLEM. Not the symptoms. Having said that......

Other cracks seem seem to be getting fixed. About a year ago Baron posted about the observation deck at CR being closed to non-Cal Grill guests. Well, in Oct and Dec, it was open to anybody.Charactor Caravan was a bust, they brought back EE.

Consistently dirty bathrooms, spotty bus transportation, bulbs burning out on main street, maintenance during the day...the list can go on. Small things? You betcha! But Walt created his parks to be DIFFERENT. He created them so you didn't have to deal with these kinds of little things. The insignificant things.

1995 was my first trip to WDW. I saw no cracks, but I had no idea what I was looking at. I would assume the same holds true for those who visited in 1971 also. Even the most vocal Car 3 riders admit that DL & WDW have had there cracks throughout the years. Maybe years ago management cared more about fixing the cracks because of the philosophy rather then profit.

Nobody is denying that the parks had their problems. But the scope of those problems never got to the point that people had to DIE! Sounds over the top? It sure is. But I would say that's one HELLUVA crack in the maintenance of Thunder Mountain that allowed someone to die. That's one HELLUVA crack that allowed Space Mountain to decay to the point that it needed to be shut down for almost TWO YEARS to be repaired. That's one HELLUVA crack that a HUGE portion of the park has to be draped in scaffolding and cloth to be refurbished. (Notice that I'm glad the refurb at Disneyland is being done. What I'm upset about is that it was not done when it SHOULD have been done....periodically!)

I will admit that the problems at Disney World really are aesthetic, but not at Disneyland. The problems there cost them a life - and a hella lotta bad publicity.

I'm not asking you to see what I see. I don't expect you to. But - in return I expect that you respect what *I* see. I'm not asking you to agree, but not to tell me that I'm wrong or that what I'm seeing is insignificant. Because to me - it is very significant.

***"Viking - the cracks are getting consistently bigger."***

I disagree, I think they're starting to heal. When we were there in May, it seemed that everywhere you looked, you could see money being invested in The World... and I'm not talking about just new E-rides. I think things are on the mend, not getting worse.

Some of the symptoms are being improved. I agree entirely.

However, as those symptoms are corrected, new symptoms pop up. I don't think that the PROBLEM has been addressed by management. What's the problem? A skewed philosophy that focuses on the bottom line, and the bottom line only.

Would Disney have reinstated the Extra Magic Hour program if the outcry hadn't been what it was? People threatened to take their business elsewhere. And they did. THAT'S why Disney reinstated the program. Not because for guest satisfaction, but because the bottom line was affected. Think about it - they tried to make the public believe that we ASKED for Character Caravan.

The pipe is being repaired, but it's still rusty and will continue to have problems until the pipe is replaced.
 
***"I'm not asking you to see what I see. I don't expect you to. But - in return I expect that you respect what *I* see. I'm not asking you to agree, but not to tell me that I'm wrong or that what I'm seeing is insignificant. Because to me - it is very significant."***

I said I disagree with you....I never said you were wrong or that I didn't respect your opinion.

I don't dispute that ME isn't the man for the job. I don't dispute that some right things aren't being done for the wrong reasons. BUT I do believe more cracks are being fixed then are opening up. You mentioned bathrooms & buses. Within the last 6 months or so I'm reading more positives then negatives on both issues.

You're right, Space Mountain should never have decayed like it did....but that's in the past. What about right now ? I guess only time will tell if ride structures that are sound today are rotten in 5/10 years.

IMO there are more positives then negatives happening. Is it happening because someone is trying to save his butt ? Most likely yes. But personally, I don't care what his motives are so long as it happens.
 
Disney is a tall order to digest.

We see it through many reflections throughout a lifetime.

The truth is: Walt ran the place one way - his way - and nobody will ever be able to replicate that 100%. I for one, would never have expected that. There can only be one founder and eventually he leaves behind a legacy to carry on. That's the Disney of tommorow. That's Walt's Disney today.

So to say there is a symptom plaguing the company now and it has to do with focusing on the bottom line is true to a degree. The company unequivocably has to make money to survive.

The bottom line has many purposes - one of which is measure profits but more importantly, it is used to help determine how satisfied the customer is.

And that's where I get lost here. Customer satisfaction is the key ingredient for any entertainment enterprise but it isn't financed by the cash left over at the end of the day - it's paid for repeatedly through the operations of the business.

Each time I hear there are problems within the operations of the business and they are governed by a philosophy of profits I get confused. Since when didn't a company have problems? Since when did one guests dissatisfaction about a particular component of a business never exist? Since when did that individual and very personal premise become the basis for conclusion on the philosophy as a whole?

Since the internet.

In reality, the customer is the sum of all of us - and as long as Disney keeps investing in phenomenal entertainment the likes of Wishes et al - I'll conclude that the driving forces within this organization (despite our bias toward the leadership) remain intact and focused toward working to achieve the complete satisfaction of tomorrow's audience.
 
What some of you don't realize is how far Mr. Pirate has come for him to post some of the things he did. It just goes to show you that he is a good listener on this board, and that just like all of us, he is stubborn to admit that Disney is not on the right path. Nothing wrong with that, none of us want to believe that our favorite entertainment company may be slipping.

However, Mr. Pirate, as tough as your admission may have been (and not even noticed by some of the posters in this thread), I appreciated it, and just like you, I have learned from many of the posters on this board.

I'm still in Car Three, but I also know that if guys like Steve Davidson are still working at WDI, and Disney is still working with talents like DuBois and Sanders (albeit in a different capacity), and that 53% of the stockholders feel that Ei$ner is the Emperor Who Has No Clothes, and that Pixar and Disney may yet patch things up, those things among many other signs, still give me hope that the revolution will come, before it is too late. But, the cracks are there, and the revolution must come.

Course that is why I am in Car three. Cause I'm an eternal optimist. ;)
 
It just seems like so much has happened and been said and predicted yet nothing too significant has changed has it? Isn't it the same Disney just moving slowly forward as usual?
Remember that there's a lot of intertia in a large corporation. To veer away from the theme parks for a second, it takes what - 3 or 4 years for an animated feature to me made? That means it takes that long from the decision point of change for results to show (never mind the fickle nature of the entertainment industry).

So... Even if Eisner (or Roy or Whomever) said today, "I don't care how much it costs, I want you to tell the best story possible in the most innovative way." It would take another 3 years (minimum) for that to show up on John Q. Public's radar.

My personal soapbox involves the animation division, because I believe that it is a wonderful storytelling medium and because I believe that Eisner has basically dismantled it in the past 5 years or so. To me, animation is the heart of Disney and to have it waste away as it has is a crime on par with letting Disneyland's infrastructure go.

To go back to the pipe metaphor, I think we've got some leaks that need fixing, but that current management doesn't see it as a problem ("no big deal, it'll water the plants"). And I think that if changes aren't made, eventually you will see a devaluation of the brand as a whole that has already begun with the animation.

Sarangel
 
Originally posted by airlarry!
What some of you don't realize is how far Mr. Pirate has come for him to post some of the things he did. It just goes to show you that he is a good listener on this board, and that just like all of us, he is stubborn to admit that Disney is not on the right path. Nothing wrong with that, none of us want to believe that our favorite entertainment company may be slipping.

However, Mr. Pirate, as tough as your admission may have been (and not even noticed by some of the posters in this thread), I appreciated it, and just like you, I have learned from many of the posters on this board.

Just want to be entirely clear (as I didn't say it earlier) that I appreciate Pirate's admission! :)
 
In fact my change in position has been very, very gradual and I don't think it's as big of change as you may. Remember I have always been a devil's advocate of sorts, not that I don't believe the things I argue (in true DA's fashion) but sometimes I have felt forced to defend things because of a particular threads ridiculous leanings, outlandish statements the other way or simple mistatements...

But it is true that I did once defend Eisner and yes I've changed my opinions on his appropriatness for Disney in the current scenerio, but I still appreciate things he did in the past and I will still take him as CEO over a buyout scenerio any day.
pirate:
 
My point though, is when is this disaster that Disney is becoming really going to happen?
Depends on how you define "disaster". If you mean a complete collapse financially, with drops in attendance even in good economic conditions, a complete animation shutdown, etc, then the answer maybe never. Or at least not for a long time.

But that's really not the disaster most around here have talked about.

The fact that all of these issues have been allowed to happen is in the first place is the disaster that's been referred to by most. It may not result in the complete collapse of the company, but it has resulted in the company becoming largely like most other companies when it comes to philosophy.

That's the lament many have, because as I've said many times, that's not the philosophy that has resulted in us spending so much time talking about an entertainment company.

Whether that results in the collapse of the company then simply comes down to execution.

On that level, Disney is also failing, but not so miserably that the company cannot recover.
 
I'll admit I haven't yet read the entire thread, but in my opinion I think Mr. Pirate's question really comes down to one of:

"Is there a chance of another Golden Age of Disney?"

That is, given the current trends is it possible that Disney could be reborn again - not a duplicate of the past - but an updated version where the company is the preeminent maker of incredible wonders of the imagination?

I'm not holding my breath, but I'm not ready to stick the nail in the coffin either. Here's why.

My problem with Disney's product of late is that I have felt, and continue to feel, that they have forgotten their audience for the most part. When I read about animation directors trying to be "cool and edgy" and trying to make animated movies for, what I consider to be, the wrong demographic, I'm reading about people trying to impress their peers in the business, rather than the kids for whom they should be impressing.

When adults engaged in creating product for children's enjoyment decide that they need to be seen as "cool" around the local watering hole, they have lost it. I think Disney, for the most part has.

The television shows no longer has any real charm, elegance, or heart about it. They all run together to me as more overhyped preteen and teen angst.

Disney, the old Disney, staked it's claim on creating entertainment for children that would be memorable. While I have no quote to back it up, I'm sure that there was a strategy to create a customer for life. The memories from childhood bring the adults back when they are grown. That's what made Disney such a success. I'm just not seeing it out of the current guard.

Viewers may be more sophisticated now, but that doesn't relieve the creative department from actually developing quality product. People of all ages still yearn to put themselves in the place of great characters having adventures that the viewer will experience only vicariously.

So, is there a chance of another Golden Age? Sure, the optimist in me never gives up. Is it likely? Not with the current crew - and more than just Eisner.

Casual Observer
 




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