Irratated with Canon at the moment

[Master Mason]

I have been having a hell of a time trying to get decent pics with my 430ex flash on the 40d never had these problems with my XT. So today I pulled out the books and started delving into the menus.

Go to custom flash settings and the camera tells me I can't get in because the flash is incompatable.

I call canon, and they tell me it is compatable because the flash will fire, but the features won't work because it is an older flash. Never mind that in the 40D book they list the 430 as compatable, they list it as compatable on their website etc.

Am I off base thinking that compatable would mean it would actually work as advertised?

Anyway, I am supposed to get a call back tomorrow from the customer advocates group. I'll let you know what they have to say.

 

[DueyDooDah]

You have to ask, is it "Certified to Work", "Works With", or "Ready For"? Maybe Canon is taking the Microsoft route to compatibility. (Sorry, it just reminds me of the computer industry, so I took a shot at the largest enitity. Forgive me! )

 

[MarkBarbieri]

That doesn't make much sense. The 430EX is a current model flash. It would be annoying enough if it was an older flash (like the 420EX) and didn't still work. I can't understand why a current flash wouldn't be 100% compatible.

What's not working right? I know that on the early Rebels (not sure about the newer ones), you couldn't adjust flash exposure compensation (unless you had the 580, which did it in the flash). Other than that, I thought that all the modern bodies were ETTL-II and were fully compatible with all of the modern (220, 420, 430, 550, and 580) flashes.

 

[SueInBoston]

I have been having a hell of a time trying to get decent pics with my 430ex flash on the 40d never had these problems with my XT. So today I pulled out the books and started delving into the menus.

Go to custom flash settings and the camera tells me I can't get in because the flash is incompatable.

I call canon, and they tell me it is compatable because the flash will fire, but the features won't work because it is an older flash. Never mind that in the 40D book they list the 430 as compatable, they list it as compatable on their website etc.

Am I off base thinking that compatable would mean it would actually work as advertised?

Anyway, I am supposed to get a call back tomorrow from the customer advocates group. I'll let you know what they have to say.

Master Mason,
I have the same setup as you 40D & 430ex. Can you post when Canon calls you back with an answer?

thanks

Sue

 

[Master Mason]

That doesn't make much sense. The 430EX is a current model flash. It would be annoying enough if it was an older flash (like the 420EX) and didn't still work. I can't understand why a current flash wouldn't be 100% compatible.

What's not working right? I know that on the early Rebels (not sure about the newer ones), you couldn't adjust flash exposure compensation (unless you had the 580, which did it in the flash). Other than that, I thought that all the modern bodies were ETTL-II and were fully compatible with all of the modern (220, 420, 430, 550, and 580) flashes.

When I go into the flash menu on the camera, if you attempt to go into the custom settings, the camera tells you the flash is not compatable. So you can't even get in. If you go to the external flash settings, the only parts that are availible is exposure comp and if it evaluatitive or average setting, You can't set up second curtian sync or the others, drawing a blank at the moment.

Still from the original call, the guy told me that the flash is older than the camera and therefore doesn't work like that, but yet the book, and website both tell you that the 430 is compatable, so if I didn't already have the flash, I would very likely go buy the 430 all over again based on their statements of compatablity, I think that is sort of false advertisings.

Sue,

yes I post a follow up on what they have to say. You would think they could develope a firmware upgrade or something to make it work properly it is after all their equipment.

 

[mabas9395]

From what I have read on other forums, some of the 430ex controls are not available through the camera menu. You need to set them through the flash menu. So they are 100% compatible, you just have to control it a different way.

The only flash that you can fully control through the camera's menu is the new 580EX II. In fact, on page 104 of the 40D manual under "Setting the External Speedlites" it says, "For details on which external Speedlite settings the camera can set, see the EX-series (such as the 580EX II) Speedlites instruction manual." (bold added by me for emphasis). What this is trying to imply without actually coming out and saying it is that only the 580EX II can be controlled completely by the camera menus. Other flashes need to use the flash menu.

So I agree that the Canon rep should have been able to tell you this, and that the manual should have been more specific, but the good news is that you should be able to get your flash to work the way you want.

 

[Master Mason]

In fact, on page 104 of the 40D manual under "Setting the External Speedlites" it says, "For details on which external Speedlite settings the camera can set, see the EX-series (such as the 580EX II) Speedlites instruction manual." (bold added by me for emphasis). What this is trying to imply without actually coming out and saying it is that only the 580EX II can be controlled completely by the camera menus. Other flashes need to use the flash menu.

My problem is this statment in red, it apparently is not the EX series that works "such as the 580EX II" it is only the 580EX II that works. And if the camera itself says that the flash is incompatable, then the EX series flashes are obviously not 100% compatable, you may be able to get them to work, but they are not 100% compatable.

 

[deletedpenguin]

I agree, it's misleading. Have you explored your options with Canon USA? Generally the first person you talk to in the call center won't be able to help...but if you escalate it...

 

[Master Mason]

I agree, it's misleading. Have you explored your options with Canon USA? Generally the first person you talk to in the call center won't be able to help...but if you escalate it...

I just spoke to the supervisor in the Presidents Office. She told me she is not "technical" and had no idea what I was talking about, so she would need me to speak to one of the senior engineers.

I just don't get it, is it that tough to understand that if the camera itself tells you it is not compatable, then it must not be?

 

[mabas9395]

I know its not how you want to do it, but have you tried using the flash menu instead of the camera menu? Do you get the same "not compatible" message?

And I hate to split hairs here, but if its just the camera menu based controls that are not compatible, they can probably technically get away with calling it "compatible" if the end result is the same.

If you hadn't upgraded from an XT where you got used to using the camera based controls, you just would have used the flash based menu and never would have known there was a problem.

All that being said, I still agree with you that Canon handled this very poorly.

 

[Master Mason]

I know its not how you want to do it, but have you tried using the flash menu instead of the camera menu? Do you get the same "not compatible" message?

And I hate to split hairs here, but if its just the camera menu based controls that are not compatible, they can probably technically get away with calling it "compatible" if the end result is the same.

If you hadn't upgraded from an XT where you got used to using the camera based controls, you just would have used the flash based menu and never would have known there was a problem.

All that being said, I still agree with you that Canon handled this very poorly.

The not compatable note comes when going to the cameras menus.

As for spliting the hairs, if it doesn't work in it's entirety, it's not compatable. It could be partially compatable, it could be it works this way etc. That's not what is being advertised.

At least in my case, I spend a lot of money buying only canon products. I don't expect for it to sort of work, I expect for it to work. It is after all their own products, one would think they would engineer them to work with each other, or tell you that they don't upfront. If I wanted stuff that sort of works I could have saved a lot of money buying a 3rd party product.

As irritated as I am at the moment, I an no where close to what I would be if I had taken them at their word and gone out and purchased a new 430 EX expecting it to work.

In the end I am probably just going to have to go buy a new flash so it opporates as I want it to, but in the mean time I plan on rattling a few cages because they have either false or at a minimum missleading information in both their manuals and on their website.

 

[mabas9395]

The not compatable note comes when going to the cameras menus.

Have you tried the flash based menu yet? Is the end result any different?

In the end I am probably just going to have to go buy a new flash so it opporates as I want it to, .

If it works through the flash menu, and the end result is the same, isn't buying a new $400 flash a little extreme? Besides, that is probably what Canon wants you to do. If you wanted to express to them your dissatisfaction, the best way to do it would be to NOT buy another flash (after you rattle a few cages of course).

 

[Master Mason]

Have you tried the flash based menu yet? Is the end result any different?

The flash menu sort of works, it is very very dificult to navagate the flash menu, it is not very intuative, you must rember what various symbols mean because it doesn't have words etc, and if I can seam to remember how to get into custom function #2, without consulting the manual everytime, I have no idea what custom function #2 does, etc.

If it works through the flash menu, and the end result is the same, isn't buying a new $400 flash a little extreme? Besides, that is probably what Canon wants you to do. If you wanted to express to them your dissatisfaction, the best way to do it would be to NOT buy another flash (after you rattle a few cages of course).

But to me, the end result is not the same, it is much easier for me to scroll though the screens on the menu in the camera than to try and memorize the gobbledy gook that is the flash menu. So the reason I would buy a new $400 flash is I want a flash that will work easily and as it is supposed to with the camera I have. I don't use the flash often enough to memorize the controls, and when I need the flash, I tend to need it right then, not 30 minutes later after I have refreshed myself on the manual.

 

[ukcatfan]

You could ask for a complete refund of your system and get a new Pentax K20D.

While I know that is not a real possibility, I do feel bad for you on this situation. It is just not right IMO.

Kevin

 

[Master Mason]

You could ask for a complete refund of your system and get a new Pentax K20D.

While I know that is not a real possibility, I do feel bad for you on this situation. It is just not right IMO.

Kevin

nahhh I love my camera, and lenses. I am just very disapointed in them for this. As I said, if they just had said that it only partially worked I would have been ok with it, since I had the flash before the body.

 

[SueInBoston]

Yikes...I need a little time to digest all this. I've never used the flash's menu so that's another whole new thing for me to learn.

Sue

 

[Groucho]

nahhh I love my camera, and lenses. I am just very disapointed in them for this. As I said, if they just had said that it only partially worked I would have been ok with it, since I had the flash before the body.

I won't suggest switching systems since you're obviously invested pretty deep by now, but I am kind of surprised that you'd be OK with it even partially working. The flash is obviously technically capable of doing what you want it to do, and worked on your XT, and presumably (?) works on the 30D as it should. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was told that because I have a new camera, I can't use my older but completely functional equipment that worked on an older DSLR.

Hmm, I just took a quick Google glance and found, from Canon's site:

The camera's E-TTL II autoflash and 12 exposure control modes (11 AE modes plus manual) are also unchanged from the EOS 30D SLR model. However, as a result of consumer input, Canon has added three Custom exposure modes. As an added convenience, particularly for wireless flash operations, users can adjust the flash settings of the Canon Speedlite 580EX II directly from the camera.

So, I guess I'm confused. It sounds like the flash should work the same as it did on the XT, but if you want to use the full on-camera flash control, you need the latest flash - and that on-camera flash control didn't exist Which really begs the question, what is causing your difficulty with using the flash on the 40D vs the XT? It sounds like basic functionality should be the same.

And what is it that you want to play with? Sync control would seem to be the big one that has to be set on the flash, most others should be controllable via the camera I'd think.

 

[Master Mason]

I won't suggest switching systems since you're obviously invested pretty deep by now, but I am kind of surprised that you'd be OK with it even partially working. The flash is obviously technically capable of doing what you want it to do, and worked on your XT, and presumably (?) works on the 30D as it should. I'd be pretty pissed off if I was told that because I have a new camera, I can't use my older but completely functional equipment that worked on an older DSLR.

Hmm, I just took a quick Google glance and found, from Canon's site:

So, I guess I'm confused. It sounds like the flash should work the same as it did on the XT, but if you want to use the full on-camera flash control, you need the latest flash - and that on-camera flash control didn't exist Which really begs the question, what is causing your difficulty with using the flash on the 40D vs the XT? It sounds like basic functionality should be the same.

And what is it that you want to play with? Sync control would seem to be the big one that has to be set on the flash, most others should be controllable via the camera I'd think.

Part of the benifits of using the 40D is the capablity of controling the flash from inside the camera. I had not seen the quote from Canon that you posted. Can you shoot me a link.

Basically the bottom line is you can use the flash on the 40D you just can't control it though the camera, even though one is lead to believe that you can in the owners manual. It references the 430 as fully compatable, which it is not, it is only partially compatable.

Really my biggest problem is that they keep telling me it is fully compatable, when all I have to do is look at the screen on my camera and it tells me I have an incompatable flash attached

In the end, I'll have a 580EXII that will do what I want, and a nice 430ex to use as a slave for extra off camera lighting.

 

[Groucho]

Hmm. From a quick YouTube video that showed how it works, I'd think it'd be faster to just control it from the flash itself, rather than scrolling up and down a big menu with your directional controls.

Anyway, here is the page I quoted from - looks like their original 40D press release.

But you did say that you're unhappy with the results you're getting using the flash on the 40D vs the XT. It sounds like it should function identically on both cameras? Even if you could use the oncamera control, it doesn't add any features, just give you a different way of changing settings. I'm still confused on why you're having problems getting the results you want?

IMHO, If Canon really wanted to be nice about their flash setup, they'd allow the onboard flash to be the master and give you wireless E-TTL flash with just one standalone flash unit and nothing extra needed. Out-of-the-box wireless flash is really fun IMHO. I've been thinking of ways to use it at WDW...

 

[mabas9395]

In the end, I'll have a 580EXII that will do what I want, and a nice 430ex to use as a slave for extra off camera lighting.

Now I get it, you were just looking for an excuse to upgrade your flash. I'll have to remember that one.