interval swap...pts misleading?

[Dr. Gonzo]

i just got my closing paperwork in the mail for the BWV contract (175 pts) i bought from Disney......and im troubled by something i read on page 60 of the DVC multi-site public offering statement. for starters my DS and i are Disney fanatics and could go every year and be perfectly happy. my DW is a trooper but would not want to go every year for a week to 10 days. so the DVC seemed perfect. our plan was every other year to swap out (160 pts) with interval and go wherever. i bought the extra 15 pts so i could borrow 15 pts, which would then allow me to go to Disney for a 3-4 days mini-vacation the same year. then the following year would be all Disney. next year we go wherever and mini-Disney trip and following year all Disney etc. etc...
seemed like the perfect situation.....but pg 60 of the public offering statement says "participation in certain External Exchange Programs may be based on a wk for wk exchange and require the reservation and deposit of 7 consecutive use day period in a 1 br or 2 br vac home. therefore in the event or reallocation in order to exchg thru the Ext Exchg Prog a member would be required (absent banking and borrowing) to have resort vac pts of at least the following": (in my case BWV)
to reserve a 1 br, 252 pts for perfered view or 210 pts for standard view.
when i look at my point charts it says nothing about this. it just says 160pts for a week. when i went on the tour at SSR a couple of years ago, nothing was mentioned. when i purchased this from Disney a few days ago, nothing was mentioned. and isnt for my lack of asking.
is this true? that i need at least 210 pts instead of 160 pts? if so this is a big bummer. i dont ming buying more points (just means more days and/or better accomadations!) but had i known this prior i would not have bought BWV thru Disney. i would have bought 210+ pts via resale because the savings become much bigger. or i would have bought SSR. can anyone confirm this? i may have to cancel my new home and then try again via resale. this is very frustrating that this was never disclosed even though i asked and confirmed with Disney on numerous occasions. this seems very misleading to me. pretty shady, shotty, shabby and sh***y if you ask me. i cant seem to get an answer on this when i call DVC. sorry for the long post.

 

[Doctor P]

As far as I know, you are getting up in arms about nothing. The disclosure is "technically" correct and is a legal disclosure, but you need to understand the context. Assume that your only option is BWV for a DVC property. The statement is correct. In reality, however, the exchange is done using whatever property is available (using the 7 month and 11 month windows). So, following the points chart for the exchanges is OK (for now) but you need to realize that those exchange tables are done one or two years at a time. To assure yourself of the ability to exchange, ad infinitum, the POS is correct. In practice, however, you will likely be able to exchange on much better terms. I wouldn't worry about it, frankly, but also wouldn't count on the 160 pt. number either. Also, many of the resorts in the system do not have 1BR accomodations, so many of them will for the most part be off limits for a 1BR trade except under special circumstances (which you can't count on).

 

[dianeschlicht]

If you are exchanging for a 1 bedroom, it will be 160 points, but if you want and exchange a 2 bedroom, it will be the value of a week in a 2 bedroom. Since DVC usually exchanges well giving a 1 bedroom for a 2 bedroom, you will usually not need more than 160 points exchanging for a 1 bedroom in high season most anywhere. When we exchanged to Hawaii, it only took 160 points (used for a 1 bedroom), and we accepted a 1 bedroom in exchange, but could have gotten a 2 bedroom for the same amount of points, since that is what we were able to get.

 

[RobDoc]

In addition to Doctor P's comments, the current point "schedule" for exchanges was lowered to it's present level a few years ago - it was originally higher.

When DVC began in 1991 the minimum purchase was 230 points and the exchange rate was based on a 1 week reservation at a DVC resort (OKW at that time). The exchange company was then RCI. About 5 years later, II was contracted to be the exchange provider. When the minimum purchase was lowered to 190 the contracts even included a caveat that with that level of points, members may not be able to use all aspects of the program - referring to the original points needed for exchanges (with banking/borrowing this was still not a real problem, but the legalese was included nonetheless).

As noted the comments referenced from the POS cite a worst case scenario - BUT - it does point out the need for members to recognize that any of these programs can be changed WITHOUT approval by owners. The DVC point charts can - and have - been changed in the past (1996 at OKW) and while no changes are currently anticipated, we should all be aware that it is always a possibility even for the DVC resorts.

The World Passport Collection, Concierge Collection, Disney Collection and Adventure Collection have no guarantees and may be chaanged or even discontinued without warning or consultation with owners.

We are only guaranteed what is spelled out in the POS and the passage described in the original post is an example of that fact.

 

[CarolA]

I think the bigger issue you have is that (A) the listing of Interval locations you can trade to does NOT include the entire Interval inventory and (B) that point need can (and does as the above posts show) change. That's a negoiation with Interval, not a Disney "controlled" event.

These are the issues I would consider if I were you before you sign.....

 

[dunkie7557]

Okay i am trying to do exactly what Doctor Gonzo wants to do- i was going to buy a resale and go trade off every other year. My guide said it's "simple"- just look at the point chart. You need a minimum of 160 for high week for a one bedroom. Now another DISc board member tells me that most of the interval units have mostly 2 bedrooms only! There are some one bdr. but most TS have 2 nowadays. That means in my case i would never have enough points to exchange! This is clearly misrepresentation by Disney as their guides do not explain any of this. they tell you about all of the other places you can go but they fail to tell you the above statements i made. I cannot buy into this unless i can trade for what points i have like a bit over 160. i was thinking maybe 175 or more if i can find a good resale.

You know the guides tell you to be careful of the "board' discussions as we may be getting wrong info. Like I told him that the board says there is going to be a Contemporary DVC in the next few years and he laughs. he said it's amazing how many rumors he hears every day ! Supposedly it's not true. He did say it is in the works for disney to expand in some other nice places like Hawaii. But it takes many years of planning before building etc..i can't wait.

Anyway i am frustrated and cannot do this deal unless I can trade into most places with a one bedroom . i can't afford to buy 250 points! Help

 

[Doctor P]

Okay i am trying to do exactly what Doctor Gonzo wants to do- i was going to buy a resale and go trade off every other year. My guide said it's "simple"- just look at the point chart. You need a minimum of 160 for high week for a one bedroom. Now another DISc board member tells me that most of the interval units have mostly 2 bedrooms only! There are some one bdr. but most TS have 2 nowadays. That means in my case i would never have enough points to exchange! This is clearly misrepresentation by Disney as their guides do not explain any of this. they tell you about all of the other places you can go but they fail to tell you the above statements i made. I cannot buy into this unless i can trade for what points i have like a bit over 160. i was thinking maybe 175 or more if i can find a good resale.

You know the guides tell you to be careful of the "board' discussions as we may be getting wrong info. Like I told him that the board says there is going to be a Contemporary DVC in the next few years and he laughs. he said it's amazing how many rumors he hears every day ! Supposedly it's not true. He did say it is in the works for disney to expand in some other nice places like Hawaii. But it takes many years of planning before building etc..i can't wait.

Anyway i am frustrated and cannot do this deal unless I can trade into most places with a one bedroom . i can't afford to buy 250 points! Help

I'm not sure you are fully understanding the discussion here or the PM I sent you (since I am the member you are referring to), or perhaps we are making ourselves clear.

The legal disclosures correctly tell you that in order to access the exchange system you generally need to have enough points available to book a 2BR at some season at your home resort without banking or borrowing. This is because banking, borrowing, and the use of other resorts is not guaranteed by the contract. In addition, it is true that, in general, most other resorts DO have predominately or all 2BR units (there are many exceptions, but as a rule this is true). Thus, in order to exchange, the legal disclosure will generally be for a 2BR unit.

So much for the legal disclosures. The way that the exchange system has worked for a few years is via the point chart that the OP referred to. In addition, as Diane points out, we are often able to book a 2BR for the points the chart requires for a 1BR (or even studio) because DVC has fairly strong trading power with the other resorts and Disney has also negotiated a favorable exchange contract with Interval International. For right now, the charts are the way that exchanges are done. For right now (and I expect for many years), we are allowed to borrow and bank. That means that you can use borrowed and banked points to get enough to do your exchange. None of those things are legally guaranteed, so they can't be part of the legal disclosure.

So, you don't need to buy 250 points. But, you also need to realize that if the conservative circumstance covered by the legal disclosures occur, someone with fewer points could possibly be shut out of the exchange system. In addition, the exchange system could be discontinued at any time. I don't expect, nor do any of the vets on this board expect I would think, that any of those things are likely to happen in the forseeable future. But, legally they COULD happen and must be disclosed.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

i guess the legaleze confused me. still does.....the way it was worded it sounds like you had to have enough points for a 1 br to exchange to a 1 br somewhere else. and 160 pts does not cover a 1 br at almost all DVC resorts.
but i spoke with DVC reservations and although not yet available i was able to put myself in th queue to go day by day to try to get exchange for the Harborside resort at Atlantis in the Bahamas. it was 160 pts. so that is a good thing. i guess ill have to add points later on when needed.

 

[Dean]

Buying the DVC to exchange is a poor choice. The program could change totally or be eliminated at any time.

The current program is somewhat different than the previous one and there have been several versions (about 4 different ones since changing over to II) over the years each somewhat different than the one before. In some ways the current version is cheaper and in others it's more expensive. Overall I think it's more expensive for those that are extremely knowledgeable but the current system is simpler and easier to understand. Trading with II is like a lottery or going to vegas. It's a great system if you are willing to learn the system and put the effort in and are realistic.

As for 1 vs 2 BR, there are plenty of both. If a resort only has 2 BR, as many do, you have to pay the higher points (currently 270 at the highest). If a resort has 1 & 2 BR and you take an instant match for a 2 BR, you still have to pay the higher amount even if you only need a 1 BR. If you do an ongoing search for a 1 BR at a resort that has them and then get a 2 BR later, you only pay points for a 1 BR.

i guess ill have to add points later on when needed.

For every other year as you are thinking, you would be FAR better off having less DVC points and buying a non DVC timeshare. Esp a different points system that gave you access to one or both of the main exchange companies as part of the membership. Or maybe Marriott if one has higher standards and plans to travel for a full week at a time. You'll have more choices, online access to II, the option of trading up in unit sizes, bonus weeks and access to getaways (rentals). And in most cases you'll have as good or better trading power.

You know the guides tell you to be careful of the "board' discussions as we may be getting wrong info.

That from a timeshare sales person, I'd get a new guide. While technically correct, the same statement would apply a thousand times over to any timeshares salesperson and that includes those from DVC.

 

[Doctor P]

Dean knows far more about exchanges than I do, so I appreciate him chiming in and defer to his knowledge. I will add, however, that the availability of smaller units varies widely by destination. For example, DVC offers multiple exchange opportunities to Hilton Head through II. Only one of those resorts offers a unit smaller than a two bedroom. In contrast, some other locations primarily offer smaller units or a wide variety of units (southeast asia, australia, cancun).

 

[Dean]

Dean knows far more about exchanges than I do, so I appreciate him chiming in and defer to his knowledge. I will add, however, that the availability of smaller units varies widely by destination. For example, DVC offers multiple exchange opportunities to Hilton Head through II. Only one of those resorts offers a unit smaller than a two bedroom. In contrast, some other locations primarily offer smaller units or a wide variety of units (southeast asia, australia, cancun).

Correct. The Caribbean and HI tend to have smaller units and getting a 2 BR is extremely difficult. MX on the other hand has mostly 2 BR units though many are lockoff's. The Royals in Cancun are a good place to search for a 1 BR and often get a 2 BR. Likewise there are few 3 BR units in general and other than extremely off season, very difficult to get for several reasons. Actually there are quite a few resorts with smaller units at HH, just not much on the DVC exchange list and this is a common issue for the continental US and certain other areas.

 

[salmoneous]

You know the guides tell you to be careful of the "board' discussions as we may be getting wrong info.

While I agree you want to be careful with board discussion in general, you will quickly notice that there are a number of very knowledgeable posters on the DIS. Those folks in my experience *really* know their stuff. Anytime there has been a conflict between them and guides, the DIS posters have proved to be right.

 

[kato0627]

Question for the experts which I can never find the answer to. In the DVC book it list the points need to exchange for the 3 seasons/maybe 2. High, and Low. How do we know what the time frame is for each?? Thanks

 

[MAO]

Question for the experts which I can never find the answer to. In the DVC book it list the points need to exchange for the 3 seasons/maybe 2. High, and Low. How do we know what the time frame is for each?? Thanks

I'd like to know this as well. I'm hoping to get a 2BR in London in 2010, but when I asked Member Services about the seasons, they basically said that they don't know what the season dates are. The only idea that they could give me was "the warmer it is, the higher the season." (Presumably, this is specific to London, not to all II destinations in general.)

I know I'm going to have to borrow and/or bank points, but I'd like to have some idea of how many I can "spend" in 2008 and 2009 to potentially get what I want and, maybe, even be able to go back to WDW in 2011.

 

[Dean]

Question for the experts which I can never find the answer to. In the DVC book it list the points need to exchange for the 3 seasons/maybe 2. High, and Low. How do we know what the time frame is for each?? Thanks

You don't know for sure UNTIL the exchange comes through. The destination resorts actually set the DVC seasons. You can get a good idea with common sense, a little knowledge of the demand for a given area and knowing the II seasons (red, yellow, green). Assume anything II red to be Mid or higher. Then if it's peak it's HIGH season and if not peak, MID season. Occasionally this breaks down where you'll see something II red but LOW season for DVC like the lower times in HI . For example, most of the Caribbean is HIGH for weeks 51-16 (Xmas to Easer) but mid the Rest of the time. Exceptions are the Westin and Atlantis which are apparently HIGH all the time and Cancun (which II includes in the Caribbean) also is HIGH mid summer. Not it could change every year and could vary from one resort to another in a given area. It's best to assume HIGH season when planning.

MAO, I think you can assume that London is HIGH season all the time I believe. II actually has only the one resort that's in London and I've never seen it come up on a search which I do every day, RCI only has 4. I think you can assume even getting a studio there is next to impossible, much less a 2 BR, you should look at other options. Do you have hotel rewards you could use? If not, you may want to consider the concierge options or cash. You could also offer for a direct exchange on places like TUG or here which will give you access to the non II resorts as well as Condo's and additional inventory.

 

[MrsNick]

Hi, Dean, I'm also trying to educate myself...How would I be able to find out when the red, yellow and green weeks are? Is this something I could find out on TUG?

 

[MAO]

Dean, thanks for the comments. What is TUG? And I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that your suggestion to 'offer for a direct exchange' would be me offering to make a reservation for someone else at a DVC property in exchange for them making a reservation for me at some II/RCI/whatever property. Have you seen something like this done very often? Where could I go to get tips on how to set it up, what to look for, etc.

Also, you say you do a search every day. Is this the same search Member Services would do for me, or is it possible that they have a different subpool of open properties than you have access to? I'm wondering if I should try talking to them next year (since I can bank points for an exchange up to 2 years in advance) or if I should just give the idea up entirely as a DVC exchange and look into other methods of getting what I want.

Thanks again.

 

[RobDoc]

TUG is the Timeshare Users Group - www.tug2.net . It is a great resource for timeshare owners. There is a lot of information available - don't be afraid to ask questons there either. Another resource is Timesharing Today - www.tstoday.com .

As for the red/yellow/green weeks , you should be able to find those designations on TUG, but the definitive answer regarding any DVC/II exchanges will come from DVC once they complete your search. It would probably be wise to base needed points on HIGH season and be pleasantly surprised if it's lower.

II members can search themselves online. The entire II inventory is NOT available to DVC members, so you'd still need to be aware of the DVC options when searching. Non-members cannot see the online II inventory, so unless you are aleady an II member thru another timeshare, you won't be able to see availability online yourself and will need to depend on DVC.

Here is a link to the DVC/II resorts.

 

[MrsNick]

Hi, Doc, thanks for the tips

 

[Dean]

Hi, Dean, I'm also trying to educate myself...How would I be able to find out when the red, yellow and green weeks are? Is this something I could find out on TUG?

You can get the week colors from II directly even as a non member. Simply to to Interval's website and click on "Resort Directory". They won't show you the 5 star rating but will give you all else including descriptions, phone, address, unit sizes and color codes. I don't think TUG usually gives you the color code but they will generally give you the resort awards such as 5* (II) or Gold Crown (RCI).

Dean, thanks for the comments. What is TUG? And I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that your suggestion to 'offer for a direct exchange' would be me offering to make a reservation for someone else at a DVC property in exchange for them making a reservation for me at some II/RCI/whatever property. Have you seen something like this done very often? Where could I go to get tips on how to set it up, what to look for, etc.

Rob has explained about TUG. I have seen a fair amount of direct exchanges. I get a lot of offers but it's just never worked out for me which seems to be the problem overall. Redweeks, DIS, TUG all offer the opportunity among several other locations as well where you can post trade requests. TUG gives you the single best opportunity to do so.. It would be a private exchange with all the trust involved in a private rental so it's best to be the one traveling first.

Also, you say you do a search every day. Is this the same search Member Services would do for me, or is it possible that they have a different subpool of open properties than you have access to? I'm wondering if I should try talking to them next year (since I can bank points for an exchange up to 2 years in advance) or if I should just give the idea up entirely as a DVC exchange and look into other methods of getting what I want.

Thanks again.

I am a member of II directly and have online access 24 hours a day, 7 days a week other than a few hours they go down for maint. It is essentially the same search MS would do though MS actually has the same access to the II system as any front line employee if I call II. IMO, there are MANY benefits to being a direct member of II. Specific to this question is it allows you to look around. Maybe you see a unit for HI that's perfect but you really weren't looking for HI. Or it allows you to "search" for a larger unit that your giving up, something you can't do with DVC or any ongoing exchange other than only listing resorts that have larger units.

As for giving up, I'm not saying that. One needs to be realistic and look at other alternatives. London is the extreme given that it's both high demand and there's only 1 resort. A resort that would not be on DVC's list if there were comparable alternatives. I'd say put in the request and start looking at alternatives. You should likely book something else but maybe something you can cancel just in case. You should also consider contacting the independent exchange company Dial an Exchange which gets a fair amount of European inventory.