If Walt Were Here...

[YoHo]

yee-ouch.


Just on the Eisner front, let's not forget the reinvigorating the Film group got started by Ron Miller, the place became a destination resort due to Epcot Center, built by Ron Miller/Card Walker, Putting the classics out on Home video was vehemently opposed by Eisner. The head of the fledgling video group (founded by Miller) fought for it and got Sleeping Beauty release. When that made huge amounts of money, everyone changed their tunes, so what is it that Eisner saved us from? When every single thing he did in the beginning was actually done by his predecessors?

 

[jade1]

A good way to look at is would you take your chances, or leave it the way it turned out? For me it could always be better, but honestly I wouldn't take the chance of losing what has become my favorite destination on earth the way it is (and growing).

 

[bicker]

Now if Walt actually made E.P.C.O.T........well, that would have changed the landscape of the Florida Project immensely.

Precisely, and if you read the accounts of his thinking in that time period it is clear that if he had his way (and as CEO, it was likely he would have), he would have tried to build E.P.C.O.T., which would have either ruined the company or precluded the building of other theme parks in Florida.

A good way to look at is would you take your chances, or leave it the way it turned out? For me it could always be better, but honestly I wouldn't take the chance of losing what has become my favorite destination on earth the way it is (and growing).

Well said!

 

[DancingBear]

Again, why are there only two options? I don't know if trying to build E.P.C.O.T. would have either ruined the Company OR precluded other theme parks. After all, they built and sold off Celebration and they still have four theme parks now, and lots more developable land remaining.

Heck, Foglesong (author of Married to the Mouse) thinks Walt never seriously thought E.P.C.O.T. was going to get built as a place for people to live (but that Walt was in on the scam to get the RCID legislation done on the basis that it would be a real city).

Just speculation of course, but I suspect that the realities of building E.P.C.O.T., including dealing with Wall Street, financing issues, attracting employers, the early 70's energy crisis, etc., might have led to a much scaled-back version of E.P.C.O.T., maybe more like a souped-up version of Celebration.

 

[bicker]

Walt himself was no longer interested in building theme parks. If saner heads did prevail, and E.P.C.O.T. was not built, and therefore the company wasn't ruined, then it is far more likely that Walt would have had the company pursue his newer interests, rather than building more theme parks.

 

[airlarry!]

There is a third option:

Imagine the Walt Disney World Resort without all of the problems:

Four parks in clusters connected by innovative transportation.

A thriving city in the middle within walking distance to transportation hubs.

EPCOT Center built, but constantly 'plussed.'

A place where vacationers would arrive by car or plane, and never step foot in a bus or car or taxi again. And never leave the property until the vacation is over.

Who says Walt couldn't have done a better job at developing the project than Ei$ner? Let's take 'em a step at a time:

We know he liked to create innovative transportation. We can see by his original layout of the MK that he had an innate understanding of traffic flow. Why couldn't he have carried that through to the whole park? What makes the guy who greenlighted Happy Days more of an expert than Walt?

Ei$ner greenlighted Celebration, but stuck it way far away from the parks, exactly opposite to what Walt wanted. Maybe DB is right, maybe the 'city' concept was a red herring to get the legislature to approve it. Or maybe he is the original Andre Duany, a guy who incorporates TNDs INTO the resort complex. Meaning executives, workers, and permanent residents become the 'guinea pigs' for Walt's ideas on making a better tomorrow. Are you saying the implementation of Celebration could not have been improved?

On EPCOT Center, the concept of corporations showcasing their latest innovations was done, albeit in a *******ized sort of way. But who is to say that Walt would not have been happy with the outcome, or that he wouldn't have fixed some of the problems: putting the weenie at the front of the park, hugeness of FW, the layout of the WS, the destruction of show with the Swalphin.

Finally, we know that Walt hated what happened to Anaheim. It is a farce to think that once he saw the potential of creating a vacation destination, that he wouldn't have tried to improve upon his original model. Heck, THAT's WHY he bought 47 square miles, remember? To have enough to implement everything his imagineers could dream up. What makes you think that Ron and Card and Cou$in Mikey could do a better job of inspiring the imagineers to create a seamless vacation resort where passengers are flown in, whisked to their hotel (conveniently next to one of their favorite parks), and conveniently sped to each park and shopping district by magical transportation.

Its all speculation both ways, but mine is more plausible.

 

[bicker]

I don't agree. I think mine is more plausible because it is based on actual biographical accounts of Walt's intentions.

I understand, though, that you wish it was to be that way. I respect that.

 

[dbm20th]

EPCOT Center built, but constantly 'plussed.'

I think this is interesting, because Future World is constantly being plussed and WDW is slammed for it on boards like this everytime. Remember how we needed psychiatrists on the bridges to keep "disney fanatics" from jumping when they heard Horizons was gone? Or figment?

In fact, the only pavilion not really touched is Spaceship Earth, and considering the engineering challenges, I'll give them a pass on that. If you have any old photos of Future World in the 80's, take a look. It's totally different and "plussed" to max.

 

[DancingBear]

I'd hardly say the "plussing" of Future World has been constant. Living Seas lost an entire ride segment, Wonders of Life is only open seasonally, and Spaceship Earth dumps into an empty room. I'm not one to oppose all ride replacements or changes, but the consensus is that the Imagination ride v.2 just sucked.

 

[bicker]

"Plussing" will always be subject to subjective evaluation of its effectiveness/quality. One could say that the missing "ride segment" at Living Seas was an improvement. None of those subjective determinations affect the fact that investments were made, i.e., "plussing".

 

[airlarry!]

M. Bicker:

One could say that the missing "ride segment" at Living Seas was an improvement. None of those subjective determinations affect the fact that investments were made, i.e., "plussing".

What does 'plussing' mean? Is it spending funds and making any kind of changes?

Please do not 'misunderestimate' me, I'm not being argumentative. I think it is important to understand each person's definition of one of Walt's favorite terms. Knowing what Walt meant by that term helps us understand what he could have done with the property as it matured.

Also, please note that I wasn't just referring to FW, I meant all of EPCOT Center. As I recall, the World Showcase has seen no major expansion since the addition of Morocco and Norway in the late 80s.

Are you two really arguing that Walt (or someone of his vision) could not have done a better job in building, expanding, maintaining and plussing EPCOT Center? Just as list off of the top of my head, can we really say he couldn't have done a better job with these tasks:

• The Imagination redos
• Letting The Living Seas wither away
• The design of the Wonders of Life pavilion and its attractions
• Letting the Wonders of Life pavilion -- err-- die...
• Changing Horizons to Mission:Space
• Changing WOM to Test Track

I find it hard to believe that Walt, the visionary who constantly pushed the Imagineers to new heights in animation and theme park design, could not have outdone cou$in Mikey.

 

[Another Voice]

I think mine is more plausible because it is based on actual biographical accounts of Walt's intentions. I understand, though, that you wish it was to be that way. I respect that.

I think the “wishing” is far more your end – the leaps of logic you’re making to show this is the best of all possible worlds requires just as much imagination as claiming to know that what Walt thinking (and that it would inevitably lead to the company’s failure). Example - your comment the only way Walt could have saved the company was to hire Michael Eisner - and no one else in the forty years of history since Walt's death - is so laughable I’m surprised it didn't spontaneously generate its own smiley icons.

It’s okay to say “I like the way things are today” without having claim that all other outcomes would have been worse. EPCOT would have worked with as a resort town (read the actual plans for the city). As for ruining the company – EPCOT would have consumed a smaller percentage of Disney’s resources at the time than the $7+ billion currently being thrown away on Pixar.

Eisner trashed the core and the most profitable of The Walt Disney Company – and then the company was forced to buy it all back again at a huge premium. I’ll take the risk of Walt’s EPCOT over the idiocy of Eisner sharp pencil business “expertise” any day.

 

[DancingBear]

Regarding E.P.C.O.T. breaking the Company, I note that even Walt didn't plan to go it alone:

Well, a project like this is so vast in scope that no one company alone could make it a reality. But if we can bring together the technical know-how of American industry and the creative imagination of the Disney organization, I'm confident we can create—right here in Disney World—a showcase to the world of the American free enterprise system.

http://www.waltopia.com/florida_film.html

 

[bicker]

I find it hard to believe that Walt, the visionary who constantly pushed the Imagineers to new heights in animation and theme park design, could not have outdone cou$in Mikey.

I admire such unbounded and unfounded idolry, but it simply isn't based on reality. Walt was good, not God.

I think the “wishing” is far more your end ...

I'm sorry, but I disagree. I don't see any logical basis for your position, so I guess were even on that score. I see such objections as simply the voice of frustration that a for-profit corporation isn't operating in accordance with one's own personal subjective preferences, and as I mentioned earlier, I respect that, but it doesn't have any validity in an objective context.

 

[airlarry!]

M. Bicker:

Which parts are 'unbounded', 'unfounded', 'illogical', and 'simply voice(s) of frustration'?

I am genuinely interested in hearing your opinion, examples you may have where Walt's philosophy would not have worked as well as Ei$ner's.

The oft-quoted remarks cited by DB are an example that the Imagineers were looking to Walt's guidance when designing the pavillions sponsored by corporations looking to advertise the latest greatest technology and innovation.

I'm curious as to your own authority.

The purchase of Pixar is clear evidence that Ei$ner's business model (make 'em cheap, make 'em sequels, worry about budget and marketing more than story and innovation) has failed the company, and it is costing them dearly to gain Leader status again.

The decision to bring in Lasseter as Chief Creator is a sure sign that Igor does not have faith in Ei$ner's hires for theme park design and Imagineering.

 

[DancingBear]

I admire such unbounded and unfounded idolry, but it simply isn't based on reality. Walt was good, not God.

Straw Man Alert!! Nobody said Walt was God, only that he could have done better than Michael Eisner. That's far from idolatry.

 

[DisneyBaby!]

I can't see how the merger with Pixar is throwing money away. The people at Pixar is exactly what Disney needs right now if they want to stay on top. Remember, the company is so much more than the parks and resorts. It is foolish for people to wonder, What Would Walt Do? He was a man, not god (to paraphrase another post).

Born in Chicago, raised in MO, he was a shrewd business man with solid midwestern vales that some would call old fashioned and others can't understand. Was he a genius or was he just incredibly disciplined and driven? Was he a person who saw talent and surrounded himself with such gifted people, he looked brilliant? The past is what it is, and what happens today and tommorow, the possibilites are endless. Now lets go have a Mickey ice cream bar and enjoy the parade.

 

[YoHo]

It's throwing money away, because Disney should never have been in the position to need them in the first place, and they are in that position, becasue Micael Eisner was and is a twit.

You know, it's so easy to develop unfounded opinions when you don't bother to know the history of the project. What E.P.C.O.T. really was intended to be, but hey, I guess if you get joy in life from arguing with people on the internet, then you do what you gotta do.

 

[bicker]

And they say the Debate Board is gone. Hahahaha!

 

[Another Voice]

I don't see any logical basis for your position,…

I’ve described what the original concept of EPCOT was and how it would work. So far you have not posted anything other than emotional, unsupported quips about Disney failing without Michael Eisner.

It seems your only position is an absolute belief in the status quo. You’ve never explained why any other course would have been worse – you’ve just made the assertions without fact or analysis (just a whole lot of PowerPoint passive/aggressive verbiage).

All of Disney was created by thousands of people that refused to accept the status quo. They wanted something different, something better. And then they went out there and did it - usually against the empty windage of business consultants telling them how wrong they were. It’s only in the recent years – when Disney listened to the suits – that things fell apart: empty theme parks, empty movie theaters and empty stores.

I’ll take a thriving company any day over what you suggest.

I can't see how the merger with Pixar is throwing money away.

Because if Disney had stayed committed to making quality movies – instead of worrying more about happy meal tie-ins – there would be no need to buy Pixar in the first place. Disney destroyed its own animation unit while others were proving that you could achieve massive success by sticking with Disney-values.

It’s the ultimate tragedy that people from the outside had to teach The Walt Disney Company how do things Walt’s way.