I Was Totally Wrong

[raidermatt]

Oh please. So you're saying those mickey mouse T-shirts they have been selling for decades was something more than making money.

No, they weren't for anything more than making money. The difference is that's the end of it for today's Disney. Walt's Disney didn't really care about selling t-shirts, but they needed the revenue to fund the greater and greater endeavors. Not just to say "look, we made money".

And I know exactly what the point is. I'm sorry that the 1950s are gone. I can't do anything about it.

No, I'm afraid you still don't get the point. If you did, you'd realize that telling me the 50's are gone would be completely irrelevant.

Its not about being in a different time period. Its about a company having a different strategic vision.

To paint Disney as some sort of creative wasteland of a theme park is ridiculous and oversimplyfing things.

And that's not what I did.

 

[sueg]

I have lurked here for years(using my wife's tag) and have enjoyed these discussions. I am fascinated by the the ideas that are exchanged.

I am outside the demographic now. I have been watching espn since1981. Sports reporting is not creative it is reactive.When espn tries to get creative it misses its best attribute---the ability to acquire and spread information. I don't like that Sportscenter has devolved to sports talk radio witout phone calls, but I love PTI and Baseball Tonight.As we mature things change, and we have to adjust. The content may not be the same, but the information and most editorial content are superior to anything Fox has ever delivered. And if you are a sports junkie that is why you tune in.

I believe in the company. I hope that Lassiter can revive the creative spirit without having his own broken. I think that they need to be given a cycle or two to show what they can produce before I can say that they will never bring back the ability to take something simple and make it great.

 

[ChrisFL]

To paint Disney as some sort of creative wasteland of a theme park is ridiculous and oversimplyfing things.

Right, unless you're referring to DCA.

But seriously, DCA is a prime example of Disney and its problems, especially when you put it up against another Disney park created at nearly the same time...Tokyo DisneySea. The difference in the quality of these 2 parks is literally night and day and it's also the same difference in what Disney paid for vs. what the Oriental Land Company paid for.

It is a very sad state when it gets to the point where company heads at that time thought they could build anything, put a mickey logo on it and sell it like crazy to the masses. Thank goodness they were wrong, people arent buying into it and we may see something positive come out of it.

 

[cristen]

wow, is right.

It always makes me sad to hear this. It's not a good day when you finally accept that something you hold dear to you, whatever it may have been, is lost. (i'm letting go, i really am)

It does suck Matt.

And to answer your question Pirate, I do believe that Walt could have done the same if he were to start now. Look at what they had to work with then and what they invented just to make his dreams a reality. Imagine what he would be able to do today with technology. I think people get lost in the huge Disney brand name and marketing machine that it is today and have forgotten all that Disney invented, all that he influenced. Unfortunatly, the company has made that same mistake. They are caught up in their own hype.


I continue to go to DL because there is still enough of the real Disney there to make it a pleasure to go. I don't even bother with DCA, DTD or WDW for that matter. The minute the park loses the Walt feel, sadly I will stop going all together.

I'm sorry Pirate.

 

[Mickmse2002]

I'm curious to know what the "Walt Feel" really is? We have frequented WDW for going on 10 straight years now and have immensely enjoyed each and every experience. We have built numerous lasting memories for the family but I believe those memories and experiences turned out this way because we chose to let it happen. WDW, and by extension the entire Disney operation, can create an atmoshpehere and framework for people to have a magical experience(s) but it is really up to the individual to live it. I am willing to bet there were a lot of people who didn't find the DL of Walt's time a magical place nor their movies and productions all that special.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Mickmse02, Your feeling are absolutely not wrong, IMO. Particualrily in the Parks there is still plenty of 'magic' to be had as the system, for lack of a better word, runs on auto...Kind of like the bunny, it just keeps going and going...

Frame of reference is very important. For those who went, knew and absorbed earlier in time the magic of old is lessening in many areas where it was Disney that supplied the magic. My old friend Landbaron used to always talk about the extremes Walt went to to get it right even if only a minimal % of his guests would ever notice (the outrageously expensive chandilers, for example). New Disney did it occasionally (the kids fountains in Epcot for example) but more begrudgingly as time has gone on. But I think that Eisner does deserve some credit for trying, especially early on.

Ultimately though the Parks still offer families (especially) a chance to feel a special magic due to the combination of the environment and the family. I was always willing to overlook the negativity while my kids were younger. We WERE making memories (and still do to a lesser extent) that wouldn't have been possible without WDW and they are some of our most cherished memories. So the answer isn't that 'it's' gone...'It' still can be found in large doses, which highlights the brillance of what was created, IMO, for those looking for it.

The bigger problem that I see doesn't lie in the Parks, nor even animation anymore (since Disney bought Disney, I mean Pixar). But the Company does not revolve around these two units anymore. The big picture including ABC, ESPN, cell phones, tie ins, what have you, is what it's all about now. I thought ABC and even ESPN could fit a Disney mold by being better than the rest, as they'd always done with the Parks and animation, it simply didn't pan out. Gone were dream makers and risk takers. Gone were the folks who care to do it right or not do it at all. Note: It isn't that the Parks don't need some serious, serious adjusments but it isn't really relevent right now because the Parks are not even in the forefront of what current Disney is all about, again, IMO.

The Disney soul is still there but I don't think it lives in people like Bob Iger (my opinion) for example.

 

[MJMcBride]

Right, unless you're referring to DCA.

Fair enough. I have never been to DCA so cannot comment on it. Some times I think a lot of you look at the past with rose colored glasses, don't you?

 

[dbm20th]

Fair enough. I have never been to DCA so cannot comment on it. Some times I think a lot of you look at the past with rose colored glasses, don't you?

MJ people have been longing for the good ole days forever. Whining about how music, movies, what-have-you were "better in my day". The fact is, no matter what the fundamentalists have to complain about, and it seems to be virtually everything, there is NO other company in the entertainment or vacation business that has hundreds of websites, blogs, messageboards, podcast, etc., etc., dedicated to it like Disney does.

Something has been and is being done right. There is no place like WDW, whether they replaced Mr. Toad or Horizons or anything else. WDW is STILL the best theme park in the world and the most popular tourist destination.

Sure things are done differently now, and the days of Walt are behind us. This may come as a shock to some but to many people, and I know quite a few, the classic dark rides and traditional animated movies are old hat and not exciting. To MANY people who come to WDW, they want to see Jack Sparrow, Buzz Lightyear, and the Tower of Terror, and not educational dark rides about growing plants in space or a carnival ride with an elephant on it.

 

[cristen]

Some times I think a lot of you look at the past with rose colored glasses, don't you?

There is no place like WDW, whether they replaced Mr. Toad or Horizons or anything else. WDW is STILL the best theme park in the world and the most popular tourist destination.

Here is where people don't understand us very well. And I know it has been said millions of times on this board, but just in case.....


It's not that we look at the past with rose colored glasses and think everything done back when Walt was alive was perfect. Becuase frankly, I am glad we no longer have the bathroom of tomorrow in the park.

And it's not that we say WDW or DL is no longer fun, that we hate it when we go, becuase we continue to go every year. And we have fun. And we make memories. And we do feel that it's a better theme park than most others. For the life of me, I don't understand why people can not accept that we can criticize the decisions made and still love the parks, movies, what have you.

What we look at is the days when things were done with a different mind set. No Walt didn't give us all great things, but we were pretty confident that we were getting the best that he could give at that moment in time. We are pretty sure from his record, that 50 years later, when a new attraction was going in, it wouldn't be a spinner.

You may feel that Disney is giving all that it can, but I don't. I am not confident that the Disney of today is really pushing the envelope and pouring love into everything they do. I don't feel it when I ride through Monsters Inc at DCA. That's the difference.

 

[Another Voice]

Something has been and is being done right.

But far too much “has been” and very little “is being”.


Maybe that’s way The Mall of America has no far surpassed Walt Disney World as America’s number one tourist attraction.

 

[MJMcBride]

It's not that we look at the past with rose colored glasses and think everything done back when Walt was alive was perfect.

Yes they do and yes they do.

 

[Mickmse2002]

For the life of me, I don't understand why people can not accept that we can criticize the decisions made and still love the parks, movies, what have you.

I think people can and do accept this. I think some of the debate comes into play when the Disney Company and Walt specifically are prtrayed as something they may not have actually been. We generally tend to have romantic visions of the past whereas the reality may have been something entirely different depending upon your worldview at the time.

 

[cristen]

Yes they do and yes they do.

If you say so. I'm not going to argue with you.

I think people can and do accept this

I will disagree with you on that.

We generally tend to have romantic visions of the past whereas the reality may have been something entirely different depending upon your worldview at the time.

And you are probably right. But I look at the level of work left behind by both old and new Disney. It's pretty simple. I know DL is a better piece of work with a better vision all around than DCA. I am not romanticizing it at all.

 

[MJMcBride]

If you say so. I'm not going to argue with you.

Yes you will.

 

[dbm20th]

Maybe that’s way The Mall of America has no far surpassed Walt Disney World as America’s number one tourist attraction.

Come on AV, put the axe aside. You know how silly that statistic is.

 

[dbm20th]

You may feel that Disney is giving all that it can, but I don't. I am not confident that the Disney of today is really pushing the envelope and pouring love into everything they do. I don't feel it when I ride through Monsters Inc at DCA. That's the difference.

And there in lies the rub. Those of us who do enjoy it now, and think the success out-weighs the failures, see the same problems all along. I don't feel a lot of "love" was put into taking carnival rides and masking them as tea cups, elephants, or rocket ships. I think TSI and SFRT were nice concepts that were poorly executed and left to stand that way for decades. I think that past regimes had the chance to update attractions like JC and failed to do it, so now the ride is dependant on the CM and not the AA's. There are missteps all along, even when our beloved Disney Legends were leading the charge. But the good, PotC, HM, BTMRR, etc., out weighed the bad.

And I think that is still the case. I do not see a lack of "love" in KS, EE, Soarin, TT, the new Nemo ride, as well as the huge list of other amazing attractions, hotels, and cruise ships all created in the last 15 years. The margin for error is much larger now, as WDI doesn't have just 1 park and 2 hotels to worry about anymore.

 

[Another Voice]

You know how silly that statistic is.

It’s far less silly than your claim that WDW is “doing things right” because it’s the number one tourist draw in America. If attendance is your judge on what’s “right” – then there’s more right going on at The Gap than at the Magic Kingdom.

But what it really mean is that you’ve completely missed the point that Mr. Pirate is making.

There’s a difference between doing what is right vs. what’s popular. Real Disney’s basic belief was that if you poured everything you had into your work, created the absolute best that you could – then people we rush to you. Great success comes from exceeding your audiences’ expectations and their desires. You don’t want to be better than your competition – you want to be beyond your competition.

Today’s Faux Disney isn’t interested in that. It’s too much work and you can make a lot of money by doing a lot less. Instead of leaping ahead of the audience, they want to pander to them. We don’t get something as revolutionary as ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ was in 1969, we get a Jack Sparrow figure wedged into an empty spot. That works fine with your “MANY people” who want to see Buzz Lightyear. I’ve worked too long in the business not to understand that there’s always a market for the lowest common dominator.

But there are a lot more people who either remember or want Disney to be that imaginative, forward thinking, give-us-their-all company; the company that was so amazingly successful. It was that attitude that made Pixar worth more than Disney.

And it’s that lack of pride that leads to ESPN “read the scores with a joke” mentality. They don’t care about doing the best possible sports coverage; it’s only important that they do it better than other people. They don’t have any internal goals, their focus is on making more coin than the guy next door. They don’t see a “right way” of doing things, everything is measured only with pennies.

It all comes down to a measure of standards. Some of us don’t settle for “just good enough to make a buck”.

 

[dbm20th]

There’s a difference between doing what is right vs. what’s popular.

You also are forgetting that "right" is an opinion, and as you can see from these boards, well all have different opinions. What's right for you is, thankfully, not always right for me.

Attendance is not an opinion. As much as someone may want to stick his/her head in the sand and feel that their opinion is the only one that matter, it is not.

It all comes down to a measure of standards. Some of us don’t settle for “just good enough to make a buck”.

Sure you do, and you always have. How many people have settled for Dumbo, Astro-Orbiter, or some silly carousel for years and years, and then kill the current crew for TS not being imaginative? You don't like these thing that are coming out now, that fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But stop pretending it is anything more than that.

 

[Another Voice]

Attendance is not an opinion.

Exactly.

So compare the opening year's attendance of Disneyland, the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center (Real Disney) to the opening year's attendance of Animal Kingdom, California Advenuture, Disney Studios Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland (Faux Disney).

The only issue of "opinion" is the path that lead to Disney's original success, and the different path that has lead them to failure after failure.

And yet again you fail to address Mr. Pirates central issue - Disney was a company that used to pour all its efforts into making the best products they could - yet today they are simple content go along with "the flow" and lower themselves to the common demoniator. It's not "ESPN the best coverage possible"; it's "ESPN, we're better than the guy who does professional bowling".

 

[MJMcBride]

So compare the opening year's attendance of Disneyland, the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center (Real Disney) to the opening year's attendance of Animal Kingdom, California Advenuture, Disney Studios Paris and Hong Kong Disneyland (Faux Disney).

I disagree that DAK is faux Disney. I love the place. I can't comment on DCA as I have never been. Have you been to the Paris Studios or HK Disney? Are the Tokyo Parks' real or pretend?