I think I may be heading vegetarian

[wildernesslodgelover]

A brain dead person is DEAD! We still treat their body with some degree of respect because they *used to be* a person--but now they are just an empty body. (But of course what counts as respect differs from culture to culture--cannibalizing one's family members *is* a form of respect in some cultures...just not ours.) But no, of course I don't think DEAD bodies in themselves have any moral standing--I think the person who the body once belonged to had moral standing to decide what happens to the body after their death. (I don't think carrots have any inherent moral standing either--do you? )

As to your suggestion in an earlier post that animals are no different morally than vegetables and that animal suffering simply doesn't matter--well I have to assume either your a psychopath if you really believe that, or you just like to ruffle vegetarians' feathers. If the latter, oh haha, never heard that one before. How witty.

This is why I say if you're not just being difficult for the fun of it, that you must be psychopath. Because even a five year old could reflect for 30 seconds on how we routinely treat vegetables and realize that obviously it is not morally okay to treat animals that way. Lots of Americans hollow out the insides of pumpkins and carve faces into them on Halloween--are you really suggesting there is no difference between doing that to a pumpkin and to a dog and that the suffering a dog would feel when having that done to it is of no ethical concern?

If hollowing out and carving up a dog (or any other mammal) is not morally the same as making a jack-o-lantern, then what is the difference? On your view apparently there is no difference, but to any sane person can see that the difference is that the dog is sentient, can feel pain, can suffer, has emotions--just like it's not okay to carve up a human child because it freakin hurts!. And if causing horrendous pain to an innocent being for fun isn't wrong in the case of dogs, why would it be wrong in the case of humans?

Also speaking of acting superior, you seem to think you are smarter than those of us (everyone but you I would think given the pumpkin case) who think that vegetables and animals are morally different. I assume you must have studied ethics in a serious way then. I'd like to hear more about what sort of coherent ethical view you have according to which animals count for nothing more than carrots. I've been teaching college level ethics courses for 5 years now and I can't say I've ever come across a serious ethical contender that suggests that carving a dog is no different than carving a pumpkin (since, of course, for an ethical view to be taken seriously it can't have implications that seem outright insane to 99.9999999% of the population).

Perhaps Descartes would have been okay with this thought as he thought animals were mere machines, though I'm not sure what his view on torturing these "machines" was. (In any case, current science seems to offer no reason to think that dogs are any less able to feel pain than humans so it seems Descartes was simply wrong about this. If dogs are just machines then humans must just be machines too.) Kant, I'm sure you know, thought animals had no intrinsic worth since they were not rational beings. But he still thought that torturing animals was wrong because it would train humans to be insensitive to suffering and eventually those humans would then begin to treat humans badly as well.

You sound very much like some of my 18 year old "I'm smarter than all of these brilliant philosophers of yore" students. They like to say crazy things too just to see what everyone else in the class will do. One of them used to claim that he would totally kill and eat human babies if only he wouldn't get caught and thrown in jail. I think you and him would get along well!

I am speechless. Which is fine, because you said everything perfectly. What a well written, intelligent response.

BTW-I feel bad for the OP. The OP never even implied she felt morally superior for considering going veg. This has happened to me on this board a few times. I start a thread hoping to start a discussion, and things turn mean quickly. OP, I appreciate you starting this thread, it is making me consider vegetarianism again...got so many great ideas and thoughts from this thread!

 

[badcramps]

OP--I've been a lacto-ovo vegetarian for 10 years for ethical reasons.

I am not sure how I feel about the morality of the act of painlessly killing an animal for food. But mere killing isn't my main concern--my main concern is the suffering of animals raised in factory farms during and especially *before* they are killed.

For me, being lacto-ovo is pretty easy. My area, social circle, and career are very vegetarian friendly. The biggest inconvenience is when traveling in very rural areas of the country. It can be hours of driving with only burger-fast food type places which means we plan ahead about where we'll have lunch or bring sandwiches with us on long trips.

I can't say I miss meat very much. Once in awhile I crave fried chicken or bacon--especially when my wife is cooking it in our kitchen!

Yes my wife eats meat. This is why I don't understand the defensiveness of some people when the ethics of eating factory farmed animals comes up. My wife knows I think the treatment of the animals she eats is morally problematic. I teach ethics courses and we have talked about many of the arguments about eating animals at length. She is a reasonable person who is able to consider an ethical issue without a knee jerk reaction that obviously what she is doing must be perfectly morally okay and everyone who disagrees must be crazy. So she in fact agrees that the way animals are treated in factory farming is wrong. But she also really, really enjoys meat and feels it would be extremely hard for her to not eat it. (She had as a teen tried to go vegetarian for years, but she always ate a little fish and chicken here and there.) She also has some problems with insulin-resistance which means that she needs to watch how many carbs she eats. For her, I think eating lean meat and fish makes it a lot easier to watch the carbs.

I have friends who span the spectrum from eating meat with no concern about where it is from, not eating meat because it upsets one's stomach, eating only "happy" meat (free range so presumably less cruel to the animals), to being pescatarian, to being lacto-ovo except for special occasions, to being vegan. I think for many of us, the attitude we take up is that we will do what we can and that every little bit helps (just as in the case of recycling or giving to charity or acquiring dogs from puppy mills and pet stores.) The more that the food industries gets the message that consumers want animals to be treated well--and are willing to divert their money--the more things will hopefully, over a very long time I'm sure, change in that direction.

 

[southbarringtonjen]

A brain dead person is DEAD!

... then a whole bunch of insane pseudo ethics stuff that has no bearing on my argument ...

There are plenty of people with massive brain injuries that still allow their heart to beat on its own. Not able to feel emotion, and if there was a spinal cord injury, not able to feel pain. Again, this is not death. As feeling pain and emotion are the cornerstone of the vegetarian argument, we clearly see you've painted yourself into a position that no sane person would defend.

My point was simple, life has no pre-requisite of feeling pain or emotion. Therefore a carrot is alive, and brutally murdered when eaten. Laugh all you want, it is the brutal truth. I will say my argument again, vegetarians "invent" all these extra clarifications as to why killing animals is bad but killing vegetables is fine. You are ending a life. There is no getting around that, unless you start making up all these extra caveats such as feeling emotion and pain.

I'm perfectly content with my decision to eat meat. Animals can be killed in whatever manner the government deems acceptable. I'm not making holier than thou statements.

 

[Vegcentric]

There are plenty of people with massive brain injuries that still allow their heart to beat on its own. Not able to feel emotion, and if there was a spinal cord injury, not able to feel pain. Again, this is not death. As feeling pain and emotion are the cornerstone of the vegetarian argument, we clearly see you've painted yourself into a position that no sane person would defend.

My point was simple, life has no pre-requisite of feeling pain or emotion. Therefore a carrot is alive, and brutally murdered when eaten. Laugh all you want, it is the brutal truth. I will say my argument again, vegetarians "invent" all these extra clarifications as to why killing animals is bad but killing vegetables is fine. You are ending a life. There is no getting around that, unless you start making up all these extra caveats such as feeling emotion and pain.

I'm perfectly content with my decision to eat meat. Animals can be killed in whatever manner the government deems acceptable. I'm not making holier than thou statements.

We're vegans, not martyrs. We're not here to starve ourselves and make our own lives so horrible. Just because there is suffering in the world, does not mean you should create more of it. I am going to agree with badcrampes, and assume you're a psychopath. Am I better than you? No, because how does one decide such a thing? Am I better EDUCATED than you? Yeah, I would say yes. There's a difference.

Your morals are completely wacky and ridiculous, and I honestly wouldn't leave a child alone with you for two seconds since you seem to think there's no difference between an animal and a carrot. Holy crap. In that case, since we're animals too, how do you feel about people? I have a feeling you don't treat them with respect, either (which is not shocking, the way you're coming down on vegetarians in this thread).

Actually, I've decided that this is going to be my last response to this guy because I really can't tell if he's being serious or not. In any case, he scares the bejesus out of me.

To the OP: It's probably very obvious by now, but bringing up the vegetarian thing on here, unless it's in direct reference to restaurants in WDW, can turn very ugly very fast. I still wish you luck though!

 

[Laura]

Regarding southbarringtonjen, I say don't feed the troll.

 

[southbarringtonjen]

I am going to agree with badcrampes, and assume you're a psychopath. Am I better than you? No, because how does one decide such a thing? Am I better EDUCATED than you? Yeah, I would say yes. There's a difference.

Your morals are completely wacky and ridiculous, and I honestly wouldn't leave a child alone with you for two seconds since you seem to think there's no difference between an animal and a carrot. Holy crap.

I have never said an animal and a carrot are the same. I have only pointed out that a carrot is alive. Did I ever say there's no difference between an animal and a carrot? Nope, you made that up. I've only used people's arguments of emotion and pain as some standard for unacceptable murder against them. I'm only pointing out this vegetarian argument, as you now seem to agree, is wacky and ridiculous.

So go back to the drawing board and figure out a new reason why you are better than meat eaters. Although you seem to have already found one, you are better educated than meat eaters. I highly doubt it. Just can't be happy unless you are superior can you?

Thanks for calling me a psychopath and being morally questionable. I'm not the person who thinks killing someone in a coma with a spinal cord injury is OK, which your failed argument seems to justify.

 

[StitchFanZ]

For those of you looking for a source of happy, well cared for meat, you might want to check out your local county fair or 4-h office to see if they have 4-h animals being auctioned. Many 4-h kids hand raise and sell farm animals. At our fair you can see the animal and talk to the kid that cared for them. They have to keep extensive records so could answer your questions on what the animal ate and if they had any shots. Most of these animals are really gentle and have had lots of loving care and attention. The kids have to show the animal and in order for it to be tame enough to walk it thru a show ring they have to give it lots of gentle care.
These animals tend to go for extra high prices since they are auctioned for fund raising, but while talking with kids and 4-h leaders you may find good leads on farmers who truly care for and love thier animals.

 

[disney_mommy]

The incendiary videos or photos that you may have seen are not the norm. Yes, animals get killed for our consumption, but the vast majority of houses kill them quickly and humanely and every part of the animal is used for something, from steaks to fertilizer.

Respect? Not sure there is much respect in an assemble line process. They don't thank the animal for it's life like in the moovie Avatar...

Humans are Omnivores and our bodies need protein and other nutrient provided by meat. If there is a specific animal that you feel is processed in an inhumane way, then avoid it. Otherwise, you'll have to go totally vegan, because animal products are everywhere in your life, from the seats on your car to the gelatin in your jello.

Various "secret cams" and studies have proven that those situations appear to be the new norm. What does the fact that every part of the animal is used have to do with anything? Though we do need proteins and other nutrients, meat is not the only place to get them.

If God didn't want man to eat meat, then he would not have made animals so tasty... - Ted Nugent

I'm sure that's how cannibals feel about human flesh. And overweight people about candy. And dogs about their own poop. Just because something may taste good doesn't mean it should (or must be) eaten.

This is exactly how I feel.

I try to avoid those kinds of shows, preferring not to know, but this one scene snuck up on me in a documentary that wasn't even about the meat industry, and it just about knocked me over.

As loony as it sounds, I'd feel MUCH better about eating meat if it were done this way!!

Anyway, my stomach is still queasy a day later, so today looks like a meatless day for me. We'll see how it goes for tomorrow.

I loved reading all of your opinions.

Maybe instead of waiting for the queasiness to pass, you should do some research and learn where your food comes from. I think everyone should be aware of what they are putting in their body, whether they are vegetarian or not. Knowledge is power.

I don't have a degree in animal husbandry however when demand goes down they do mass slaughter to pay the bills. While it seems logical that less animals would be killed, the reality is slaughter increases.

Though they may do a mass slaughter with the current stock of animals, the next stock will be that much less, thereby saving animals.

Vegetarians like to think they are saving some poor animal from a horrible fate, when the reality is they are murders themselves. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but pulling a vegetable out of the ground and eating it ends its life. Look up the dictionary definition of life, a carrot counts as being alive. Just because the carrot isn't cute and doesn't scream while vegetarians murder it doesn't change the fact that it was murdered.

If you want to not eat meat, that is great. Just don't act superior, because you aren't.

This person is clearly a lurker wanting to stir up some kind of far-fetched debate, so this will be the last time I respond to this poster on this thread. And my response to the above post is this -

I don't get this thinking. There are good and bad vegetarians and non-vegetarians.

Hitler was a vegetarian and "believed that a vegetarian diet could both alleviate personal health problems and bring about a spiritual regeneration." (snipped from Wikipedia)

If we were not supposed to eat meat we would not require certain nutrients (some B vitamins?) that are only obtained from animal sources.

We would also not have canine teeth.

I think you can be ethical in how animals are treated whether they are a food source or not. And people are free to make the food choices they want, but I think they should be informed choices.

Meat is not the only source of Vitamin B, it can also be found in whole grains, potatoes, bananas, lentils, chile peppers, tempeh, beans, nutritional yeast, brewer's yeast, and molasses.

Canine teeth are a vestige from our caveman days when our only option was to tear meat off the bones of the animals that we speared. Just because we still have them doesn't mean we have to use them. What job does our appendix do? That is also a leftover from evolution that hasn't quite gone away.

Thank you for this information!

Some people may feel that way but for me it's just that I feel very troubled by the cruelty the animals go through. The incident I saw was a guy getting ready to slaughter a pig and he picked it up and threw it against a cement barn wall to make it stop squirming around. Then he cut it's throat and let it walk around until it bled to death. I honestly never thought about how slaughtering is done. I just assumed it was done more gently.

Unfortunately, this practice is all too common. Some people prefer to remain oblivious to how their food is prepared, but it looks like it just slapped you in your face! Now you have to do your reserach and decide what is best for you.

I have come across vegetarians who think they are making the "superior" choice, not just a different one.

I do not want to start a flame fest here, but I have to say that I think it is the superior choice. That's why I chose it. Just like an omnivore will say that he has made the superior choice. After you've done the research, you have to decide what is the best (aka superior) decision for you. I certainly don't lord my decision over people and tell them they're wrong (though I think they are!). They've made a decision, so I will respect that, just as I expect them to respect my decision.

Efficient processing plants don't have time to do all of that. The animals go through chutes and have chains placed around their back legs. An airgun shoots a rod into the head which knocks the animal unconcious. The chains are tightened and the animal is drawn into the air. The throat is cut and the animal bleeds out and expires. It's not pretty, but it is not inhumane. The torturing that is caught in videos is not the norm.

I know the person doing the slaughtering doesn't thank the animal for it's life, but in our family, we thank God every day for the food on our table. Isn't that the same thing?

What happens when the legs aren't lined up right and doesn't catch a leg? When they turn their head and the airgun hits their neck? The airgun misses and they stay conscious? The throat isn't completely cut and they don't die immediately? The blade misses competely? If they are a slow bleeder and die slowly? These things do happen, as has been proven over and over again.

I am speechless. Which is fine, because you said everything perfectly. What a well written, intelligent response.

BTW-I feel bad for the OP. The OP never even implied she felt morally superior for considering going veg. This has happened to me on this board a few times. I start a thread hoping to start a discussion, and things turn mean quickly. OP, I appreciate you starting this thread, it is making me consider vegetarianism again...got so many great ideas and thoughts from this thread!

The only thing we can do is ignore the people who want to be mean and start pointless arguments, and go about or way, discussing things like adults. Which I will continue to do.

 

[bettymae1121]

I have never said an animal and a carrot are the same. I have only pointed out that a carrot is alive. Did I ever say there's no difference between an animal and a carrot? Nope, you made that up. I've only used people's arguments of emotion and pain as some standard for unacceptable murder against them. I'm only pointing out this vegetarian argument, as you now seem to agree, is wacky and ridiculous.

So go back to the drawing board and figure out a new reason why you are better than meat eaters. Although you seem to have already found one, you are better educated than meat eaters. I highly doubt it. Just can't be happy unless you are superior can you?

Thanks for calling me a psychopath and being morally questionable. I'm not the person who thinks killing someone in a coma with a spinal cord injury is OK, which your failed argument seems to justify.

No one on this thread has said that veggitarians are better than meat eaters. And vegcentric didn't say he/she was more educated than meat eaters, just more educated than you. Which may or may not be true of course, no one here has any way of knowing that one way or the other.

Sure, it's all life. But you can be cruel to an animal, you can't be cruel to plant life.

 

[disneyfav4ever]

No one on this thread has said that veggitarians are better than meat eaters. And vegcentric didn't he/she was more educated than meat eaters, just more educated than you. Which may or may not be true of course, no one here has any way of knowing that one way or the other.

Sure, it's all life. But you can be cruel to an animal, you can't be cruel to plant life.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

No one on this thread has said that veggitarians are better than meat eaters. And vegcentric didn't say he/she was more educated than meat eaters, just more educated than you. Which may or may not be true of course, no one here has any way of knowing that one way or the other.

Sure, it's all life. But you can be cruel to an animal, you can't be cruel to plant life.

I don't know about that. If you would have seen what I did to plants while I was "earning" my green thumb, you'd be pretty horrified.

As to the original topic. I've been watching a lot of documentaries, and reading a lot of books about our food chain and the process of how our food gets to our table. Living near a large meat rendering plant, I have seen what environmental problems are caused by such places, and I can only imagine what goes on inside.

Because of this, my decision was to seek out local farmers and discuss their practices with them. We were never a "beef" family, but we still eat chicken, pork, and turkey. Through contacts I made at my local farmer's market I was able to track down a local farm that is run completely naturally. Nature is in perfect balance, and no "extras" are being fed to any of the animals.

I feel 100% confident in this farmer, and that his products are made in as caring of a fashion as possible. We buy all of our meats from him, as well as seasonal vegetables that have been grown 5 minutes from our house. I'm sure a lot of vegetarians and vegans would still frown on me, but, the truth is, there are humane ways to go about eating meat.

 

[bicker]

That's a good way to tell the difference really: If the farmer invites you in and is willing to show you his stock, and how they're treated, then you've got something to go on. 99% of meat sold in this country comes from farms where even regulators are sometimes barred from entering, and journalists or regular folks are never allowed. While there are legitimate reasons for controlling access, the reality is that in controlling access they're effectively blinding the public to the atrosities they're committing. How convenient.

 

[disney_mommy]

I don't know about that. If you would have seen what I did to plants while I was "earning" my green thumb, you'd be pretty horrified.

As to the original topic. I've been watching a lot of documentaries, and reading a lot of books about our food chain and the process of how our food gets to our table. Living near a large meat rendering plant, I have seen what environmental problems are caused by such places, and I can only imagine what goes on inside.

Because of this, my decision was to seek out local farmers and discuss their practices with them. We were never a "beef" family, but we still eat chicken, pork, and turkey. Through contacts I made at my local farmer's market I was able to track down a local farm that is run completely naturally. Nature is in perfect balance, and no "extras" are being fed to any of the animals.

I feel 100% confident in this farmer, and that his products are made in as caring of a fashion as possible. We buy all of our meats from him, as well as seasonal vegetables that have been grown 5 minutes from our house. I'm sure a lot of vegetarians and vegans would still frown on me, but, the truth is, there are humane ways to go about eating meat.

That's a good way to tell the difference really: If the farmer invites you in and is willing to show you his stock, and how they're treated, then you've got something to go on. 99% of meat sold in this country comes from farms where even regulators are sometimes barred from entering, and journalists or regular folks are never allowed. While there are legitimate reasons for controlling access, the reality is that in controlling access they're effectively blinding the public to the atrosities they're committing. How convenient.

I guess this is where I will veer off from the rest of you and state that I don't eat meat because I don't think we should. (The italics are because I am speaking only for myself, not trying to be sarcastic.) I think that as a "higher being" or a more intelligent species, it is our job to protect those under us, and that includes protecting them from us. There are just too many options out there for being a vegetarian (or vegan) without having to kill something, no matter how humanely it is done.

I'll say it again (because sometimes people forget and will start flaming), I do not begrudge anyone their right to do (or eat) as they please. I respect everyone else's decisions and expect them to do the same for me. I don't mind having an adult conversation with intelligent people, but I won't defend myself against people who are just being mean for the fun of it.

 

[bicker]

I guess this is where I will veer off from the rest of you and state that I don't eat meat because I don't think we should.

Well, do keep in mind that people can have more than one reason. Lots of the discussion has been about how horrible the treatment of animals on factory farms/fisheries is, and that is clearly a great reason, by itself, for not eating meat, and for some people that's the only reason. For other folks, that's just one reason among several.

There are just too many options out there for being a vegetarian (or vegan) without having to kill something, no matter how humanely it is done.

This is critical, for me: One reason I'm a vegetarian is because there is no (good) reason not to be.

 

[Smilodon]

This conflict is truly reflective of similar aspects of Western society going back ages. We've had a long history of self-centered and often-destructive subjugation and exploitation. Women, along with children, were treated, at times, as the property - chattle - of their men. In a similar vein, the powerful dominated the weak, making them into slaves, and effectively exacting one's own comfort and pleasure by exploiting those slaves.

Excuse me? What makes you think this kind of economy is unique to Western societies? I'd strongly suggest you learn a bit about Chinese, Indian and African societies before making any such claims.

 

[bicker]

I do know a lot of about those other societies, but I'm not a member of them, and since that aspect isn't relevant to what we're talking about, I don't believe it is appropriate or necessary for me to speak so disparagingly about those societies, assuming that the points I was making apply to them as well as it does to Western civilization (which is debatable). It is enough to make the point with regard to Western society. Limiting my comments just to that scope more than makes the point and avoids derailing the thread with the irrelevancy you tried to distract us onto.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

I have a question about blood types. Anyone hear of this, that O blood types are meat eaters, A's do better as vegetarians, etc, etc.? I'm a B, which I believe my ancesters have been both meat eaters and vegetarians. Not even sure how much credence I give to this, just found it interesting. Anyone experience any truth to this? Any O blood types out there that are doing well as vegetarians? Just curious myself. I also have been considering becoming vegetarian for many of the same reasons mentioned. Right now I do not eat any pork whatsoever, do consume dairy, eggs, and very small amounts of meat occasionally.

 

[MelanieC]

I have a question about blood types. Anyone hear of this, that O blood types are meat eaters, A's do better as vegetarians, etc, etc.? I'm a B, which I believe my ancesters have been both meat eaters and vegetarians. Not even sure how much credence I give to this, just found it interesting. Anyone experience any truth to this? Any O blood types out there that are doing well as vegetarians? Just curious myself. I also have been considering becoming vegetarian for many of the same reasons mentioned. Right now I do not eat any pork whatsoever, do consume dairy, eggs, and very small amounts of meat occasionally.

I'm B-

I'm doing very well as a vegan and also did well as a vegetarian.

 

[Planogirl]

I respect those who choose to be vegetarians or really anyone who goes with a particular food lifestyle. I will remain a meat eater for various reasons but I support those who choose otherwise.

As for a farmer welcoming people to his or her farm being a good indicator I agree with that. We have one farm near us that even has regular events and wants to get to know their customers personally. It's refreshing if sadly too expensive for me at the present time.

 

[moburg]

That is incorrect. If one person stops eating meat, the demand will go down (fractionally, it would seem) and so less animals will have to be killed. The more people who do it, the less and less flesh will be demanded, which means less and less supply needed.

If you don't care about the animal's welfare, consider the ecological ramifications of eating meat: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/18/vegetarianism-save-planet-environment.

Yes, cows are huge contributors of methane into the ozone.

So I'm doing my part by eating as many of the gassy bovines as I can!