I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[AnaheimGirl]

...you know the key to gay rights in this country is to normalize the homosexual lifestyle...

Key to gay rights? I'm confused. I thought gays had all the same rights as everyone else, since they are allowed to marry people of the opposite sex, just like straight people. What rights are you talking about?

You will see that the medical and scientific community has not proven their is a "gay" gene. So, since one is not born that way then it comes down to a choice. Now, we all have urges to do sinful things we shouldnt do. I believe as stated before that homosexual urges are a product of nurture not nature.

You are talking quite a leap there. No one may have "proven" there is a gay gene, but no one has proven there is not some biological reason (doesn't necessarily have to be a gene, you know), either. Your belief is just that -- your belief. Mine is different.

True, you may not know where your homosexual urges came from or were a result of but you had and you still do have a "choice" to act upon those urges.

Like I may see a particularly mature 16 year old in a bikini on the beach and feel some sexual urges toward her. However, I have a choice rather to act on those particularly inappropriate urges.

Eewww! Please, the visual on that is too creepy for words! Again, the key is consenting adults. I don't know of any gay or lesbians who would "act on" ::shudder:: their urges towards a particularly attractive 16yo on the beach, either. ::shudder::

But as a poster said earlier, you will discount the experiences of 100s of ex-gay men but then ask us to believe in your experiences or the experiences of millions of gay men. SO we are give more credit to your experiences to that of a recovering homosexual? Which one is it?

It doesn't have to be one or the other. At the risk of sounding like a 3 year old (he started it!!) , you are the one using ex-gays to discount the experiences of the vast majority of gays and lesbians, and you don't expect anyone to discount the ex-gays back? Really, both experiences are valid. Like I said before, I don't see anyone trying to convert ex-gays, why are you trying to convert gays? Live and let live. It's pretty simple.

 

[amykissangel]

Sorry, posted this in the "Nutz" thread...was reading both at once...that's the ADD kicking in folks!

I guess my question to the OP and those who agree...why do you care? Why is it SO important to you to tell others how wrong their lifestyle is? Are they killers? Are they molesting children? Are they terrorists?

If you answered, "Some of them are," then I'm here to tell you that the same can be said for straight individuals.

My point is this: If the reason you're telling homosexuals that they are sinners is because you're religious, then stop and think about what God wants you to do. He wants you to love others as He loves us...if you've expressed your opinion and homosexuals haven't magically converted to heterosexuals, then stop it. Just stop it and accept them for who they are. You can still feel superior and feel as though you've done "God's Will," and when YOU get to Heaven, you can tell God that you did your best.

My cousin is Catholic, gay, and believes that God put him here to face the hatred and adversity of those small-minded enough to deny someone their rights based on their sexuality.

A music teacher of mine was married to a man who later told her he was gay. They had two children, and what she thought was a happy life...until he told her that he hated himself for what he had become: a liar. He lied and told her that he was in love with her, and married her. He loved her, but he was gay; he was attracted to another men, had feelings of being "in love" with another men, and they divorced.

Trying to conform to the beliefs that many people here have posted, he ruined his own life, and the lives of his family members by pretending to be something he wasn't.

My friend committed suicide because he was gay, but his family couldn't accept it. He had options: becoming a Preist (who was gay, but could never have sex), or pretending he was something he wasn't his whole life. He chose the latter, and the depression was so bad, he killed himself.

Why, oh why, do you have to spread this hatred? I know, I know. It's not hatred. It's just your opinion. And granted there's nothing to prove that there is a "gay gene." But if my cousin and friend and my teacher's husband tried and tried and tried to conform and change, and they couldn't, is that at ALL getting through to anyone?

So what? Do you want them in an institution somewhere where they can't infect others with their poisonous ideas? I don't understand why you just can't let these people be? How are they bothering you? How is their sex life, home life, love life bothering YOU?

YOU'RE not doing anything "wrong." YOU'RE following God's laws. YOU did the "good" thing and tried to "change" your fellow man. So let it go. You did what you were "supposed" to do. Let these people have some peace. Let them love whomever they choose to love because that's how they feel inside.

If you were told that you couldn't be with your husband or wife, the person you love, or if you were told you couldn't pursue someone you were attracted to, would you be okay with it? Would you sit back and say, "Oh, okay. Some people and a couple verses in the Bible tell me I can't be with my significant other and that my love isn't valid. It's wrong and perverted and disgusting. So I'll just live my life alone without that person to complete me. No prob." Are you KIDDING me? You'd fight tooth and nail to have the rights that you DESERVE.

Feel free to look down on those who deserve it: abusers, molestors, killers, rapists, arsonists, terrorists, etc. etc. etc. They did something that could affect you in a terrible way one day. You could be abused, molested, killed, raped, your house burned down, or your town could be bombed.

What are homosexuals doing to hurt you? To cause you harm? They're not doing ANYTHING to you AT ALL, but you still feel the need to hurt them. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND. I don't. I can't. My parents, who grew up in a small rural community in da UP (Upper Penninsula, for those of you who weren't fortunate enough to visit ), are having a very hard time with my cousin's coming out. My Dad just thinks it's "gross" for two guys to be together. My Mom is having religious issues, the same as many of you are. But they know my cousin. They know he loves Broadway, Bernadette Peters, and Disney. They know he hates red meat and adores sour cream and onion chips. And they know he woudl never do anything to hurt himself or his family. They know he would never choose such a difficult life...why, why would you Choose the pain that comes with being homosexual? Of telling your family, friends, of being afraid you won't be accepted?

And I leave you with my last thought: Let's say new Susie at work comes up to you and says, "Hey, I want to introduce you to my boyfriend." Do you immidietly picture them having sex? Or wonder if they're having pre-marital sex and are committing a sin? Good. Me neither. So if a woman comes up to you and says, "Hey, I want to introduce you to my partner, Lisa," why do you immidietly picture their sex life and see them as different? That's your own problem - if you can't look at a person and not see their sex life (which is what you all seem to have a problem with)? Gross. Have fun with that...I don't want to be introduced to you, that's for sure.

BTW, I really AM sorry this is so long.

 

[RickinNYC]

One of the largest gay conversion therapy groups in the world, Exodus International, was founded by two men, both self identified as "ex-gay", married to women, devoutly Christian leaders in their community. They were the trailblazers in the movement, speaking at engagements coast to coast. What folks want you to forget is the punch line.

They have since left their wives and families. Why? Because they fell in loved WITH EACH OTHER and have since abandoned Exodus.

And frankly, the American Medical Association has stated “there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.” The AMA “does not recommend aversion therapy for gay men and lesbians.” THE AMA folks. I didn't make that up.

And the American Psychological Association has said that “groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help.” They also make it very, very clear that “gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so.”

But, even with two quotes from two highly esteemed organizations in the country, there will be attempts by a few DIS'ers to discredit them as against God, anti-Christian liberals or some such absolute vomit spewing garbage.

Quite using the Bible as a weapon folks. You're giving Jesus a bad name.

 

[oelpa]

@amy thanx for your wonderful post.... but sadly i do think that people like discernment won't stop spreading their hateful tirades the funny thing is he even thinks he is tolerant.

 

[RickinNYC]

@amy thanx for your wonderful post.... but sadly i do think that people like discernment won't stop spreading their hateful tirades the funny thing is he even thinks he is tolerant.

And he (and a few others) get all upset and confused when called homophobic. That's what I find most confusing.

 

[goofy4tink]

God does know him, and his struggle, that is true. God loves him, that is true. God hates sin, that is true. The Bible says it is sin, that is true. Therefore God hates that sin, that is true. But he loves the sinner, that is true. And the sinner can repent and be completely forgiven, that is true. But it needs to be asked for, and you must repent, that is true.


Incorrect, according to the Bible.


A better plan would be to align your beliefs with the Bible's, then find a church that has done the same.


It SHOULD matter to any Christian, what the Bible has to say. In fact, that should be the basis for ANY Christian's beliefs, Episcopalian or otherwise.


If your foundations are not based on the Bible, I would hope that if you are a Christian, YOU would want to change them.


Based on this, are YOU even sure of what you believe? You don't even talk with absolute certainty about it, and the Bible says we can be sure of our salvation, and sure of many other things. Are you sure of what you believe, and why? Just curious...


When it comes to religion and eternity, it pays to be right. And if people aren't convinced enough about the truth of their own beliefs to say they're right, how convinced are they themselves?


You've got that right, God will be the final judge, to be sure. And at that point, if you've gotten it wrong, an "Oh well, I tried to do the right thing" is unfortunately going to fall way short. All, of course, according to the Bible.

Yep, I'm pretty comfortable in my beliefs. I'm pretty certain of what I believe. I do think I'm a pretty decent Christian. I do have an issue with those 'Christians' who seem to know best exactly what defines being a good Christian. I've already said I have issues with the 'man written Bible'...sorry, but it's only what man believes God to have said. I'm not discussing it..it's my feeling, you don't have to agree. I don't particularly care one way or the other.
This line of 'discussion' is disolving into a "I'm a better Christian than you are" and a "My church is better than your church" type thing. So wrong on so many levels. I have to wonder where all those wonderful Jews are spending their eternity....they certainly aren't proclaiming Christ as their one and true savior are they?? Oh yes, I know...heresy. Sure would be nice if everyone could just agree that everyone is welcome to their 'rights' and move on. No wonder there is no peace in the world.

Bottom line...gay couples are not ruining the world, they aren not dooming heterosexual marriages, or the American way. I so don't care what people are doing behind their bedroom doors...as long as they are adults and consenting. Keep it there...I don't want to see anyone making a public scene with their 'partner' gay, straight..whatever, get a room!!!!

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

Just curious - how do you feel about non-virgin brides? The bible makes it crystal clear - they should be stoned to death.

Now, in my experience, most churches - even those who "claim" to be Christian - don't believe in stoning non-virgin brides. Should I seek out a church that believe in stoning non-virgin brides? Should I be upset with, and chastise any church that doesn't follow Biblical teaching on non-virgin brides?

Oh, yes- excellent question! and if all Christians followed the Bible to the letter, they'd all be keeping kosher too- the OT of the Bible clearly states we must not eat unclean animals like pigs, or eat the flesh of the child and the milk of the mother in the same meal- so no cheeseburgers, no steak and baked potato with sour cream, etc.

Personally, I don't know how so many people are so sure that:

the translation of the Bible they read/follow is correct. The original was in Aramaic. Kings and rulers usually commissioned translations and then monks transcribed things. There's no room for human error?

or

How do they know they're interpreting the allusions, analogies, parables, etc. correctly? Obviously some things are open to interpretation- why else would there be so many different Christian churches arguing while all claiming to follow "the Bible"? Some people state everything should be taken literally, while others state some things are symbolic. How do they know they're right?

or

How do they know that the "original" Aramaic Bible itself if *THE* document we all should be following. How do they know that that is where all the info is? How are they so sure that they shouldn't be reading The Koran, the Tao Te Ching, etc. etc. ? Supposing that it is, how do they know there haven't been any amendments or updates?

I wasn't there when Moses got the tablet, or when the Bible was written, so I don't believe in following it to the letter. I believe in reading as many sources as I can and seeing which ones correlate to my personal beliefs of how to be a better person.

I just don't know how someone can say it's okay to have sex before you're married, it's okay to not keep kosher, it's okay to disobey those things, but the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. It's so contradictory.

 

[oelpa]

@rickinNYC yeah that's really confusing i mean he says "homosexuals are siners, it's wrong, it's deviant sexual behaviour" but no man i'm not a homophobe. What exactly in homophobe doesn't he understand.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

My earlier lists of prohibited and permitted sexual activities was only presented to illustrate how the Bible was written in a certain historical context. My point, and I think that of the new PB, is that as our society changes, as we learn more about ourselves and the human condition, perhaps we need to rethink some of the prohibitions we once thought were written in stone.

And, BTW, my denomination is way better than your denomination...

 

[discernment]

And he (and a few others) get all upset and confused when called homophobic. That's what I find most confusing.

wrong again.

What people get upset about is constantly being called "hateful" just because they disagree with a lifestyle choice.

Ah, and there's the crux of your argument. You claim not to hate individually, but you certainly do an entire population.

As long as people like you try to shout down and engage in name calling and label everyone who opposes your case and agenda as hateful, it is very difficult to have an honest exchange. But people like you are never interested in that anyway.

It is always good to see the most tolerant among us exercising that tolerance to an opposing viewpoint.

 

[eclectics]

My point, and I think that of the new PB, is that as our society changes, as we learn more about ourselves and the human condition, perhaps we need to rethink some of the prohibitions we once thought were written in stone.

Even the Catholic Church, not exactly known for their fondness of change, had Vatican II.

 

[oelpa]

here we go he hides behind the tolerance thing again... discernment sorry to dissapoint you but your are not tolerant. There is nothing you want to discuss you just want to tell us and the rest of the world how wrong being homosexual is and that most homosexuals are pedophiles and siners. No matter what people would tell you no matter if tomorrow scientists would find a 100 percent proof that there is a "homosexual gen" you still would think that being homosexual is wrong. So what does this make you? At least it makes you a homophobe.

 

[discernment]

@rickinNYC yeah that's really confusing i mean he says "homosexuals are siners, it's wrong, it's deviant sexual behaviour" but no man i'm not a homophobe. What exactly in homophobe doesn't he understand.

So your definition of a homophobe is someone that opposes homosexuality and thinks its wrong. And why was it necessary to create a whole new word to "describe" the opponents of homosexuality? Agenda, again.

And as far as me saying homosexuality is deviant is because it is:

Main Entry: de·vi·ant
Pronunciation: -&nt
Function: adjective
: deviating especially from an accepted norm <deviant behavior>

 

[RickinNYC]

wrong again.

What people get upset about is constantly being called "hateful" just because they disagree with a lifestyle choice.



As long as people like you try to shout down and engage in name calling and label everyone who opposes your case and agenda as hateful, it is very difficult to have an honest exchange. But people like you are never interested in that anyway.

It is always good to see the most tolerant among us exercising that tolerance to an opposing viewpoint.

Using that as your argument once again, eh?

Second verse! Same as the first!

 

[discernment]

here we go he hides behind the tolerance thing again... discernment sorry to dissapoint you but your are not tolerant. There is nothing you want to discuss you just want to tell us and the rest of the world how wrong being homosexual is and that most homosexuals are pedophiles and siners. No matter what people woud tell you no matter if tomorrow scientists would find a 100 percent proof that there is a "homosexual gen" you still would think that being homosexual is wrong. So what does this make you? At least it makes you a homophobe.

You are right, I am not tolerant nor should I be. I never claim to be though.

I never said MOST homosexuals are pedophiles. But you are right I did say homosexuality is a sin and I believe its wrong.

 

[discernment]

Using that as your argument once again, eh?

Second verse! Same as the first!

Its no different than your constant shrills of hatred and homophobia that you love to label people with.

 

[Missy1961]

Using that as your argument once again, eh?

Second verse! Same as the first!

A little bit louder, a little bit worse!

 

[Muziqal]

I think Christian Fascism/Religious addiction should be sinful and IS a choice, ncDisneyfan, discernement and JimmieJ

Organized religion preys on the weak and vulnerable. I have as much proof to back that statement up as any of the right wingers do to back up their's. You might have a book of tales passed down as an heirloom...I have simple human observation.

Spirituality? Faith? Great! Mindless sheep on a two thousand year old crusade to dominate the world? Booooo

No one is definitively right or wrong until god, buddha, allah or something else comes down from the sky to prove it. Until then, you choose what you want to beleive. What I don't understand is why there's so much intolerance for another's beliefs? So much that we berate, criticize and mock...even kill each other over it when there is no absolute truth. Again, what is dangerous about this demonination taking this turn? What will the consequences be to those who believe this "truth"? Truth is in the heart of who ever is faithful to what they beleive. Christian zealots kill me... Well, any zealot for that matter...but the Christian whackos are on a roll in this thread! It's like watching the first couple of episodes of "So you think you can dance"...I'm embarrassed for some of them, but I can't change the channel.

Furthermore, I don't know why some people let people like discernment get to them...it's the first rule I learned in grade school. Bullies go away if you ingnore them. They have enough issues to deal with on their own. Take pity on them if you wish, but don't waste your time with their antics.

 

[oelpa]

so then tell me what do you want to discuss then. You have it all worked out for you and you will never think in a different way. So be it you think it's wrong OK. But do you have to keep on bothering other people with your antiquated view. Furthermore you are the one insulting people you call us all siners do you think that's right? I'm really glad that i live in a country where most of the people accept and support homosexuality and that i don't have to put up with people like you in "real life". I don't understand why you can't just accept that it doesn't matter who you love be it a man or a women as long as you don't hurt anybody it's all about love not gender. And all the gospels you refer to are written by man not god we don't really know what god really wants.

 

[RickinNYC]

So Discernment, my little buddy, what is your take on that post I made about those Christians that created Exodus? And the AMA's and APA's position on gay aversion therapy? You haven't addressed those.

Or, like "Judge not lest ye be judged," are you going to ignore that as well?

As for making judgements and intolerance, I do make judgements. Difference is, I don't use the Bible in order to do so. I use education and informed opinion when making those judgements about people that preach hate.

And you are absolutely entirely 100% correct. I have absolutely NO tolerance for people who make rash, ignorant, HATEFUL and rather obsessive judgements of others. Homophobes are really no better than racist people or sexist people, etc... Am I completely disgusted by the KKK, all it represents and the completely ignorant people that are members? Yep! 1000000% You bet I do!

I embrace my intolerance against all homophobes, racists and the like. I pity them for their small mindedness.