I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[hamlet35_2000]

I was shocked, too- wearing pink with a black and white suit and salt and pepper hair? Doesn't she know she's a Winter?

Oh . . . I guess the shock was supposed to be that a religious/spiritual person is accepting homosexuals and saying God does, too? Didn't really shock me.

Hi, discernment- just a friendly observation. You spend more time starting threads about homosexuality than any other self proclaimed straight people I know. Any particular reason?

LOL LuLu is offcially my new best friend-- hopefully she will keep me from wearing white before Labor Day-- or is you can't wear white after Labor day.... hmmmm... let's just change all of this political and homosexual talk into a fashion seminar.

 

[Saxsoon]

KUTLESS -VOW
Another year has come and gone
Nothing’s changed
I wasted another year
Doing the same old things
I want to break out of this
Turn my life around
I’m going to make a vow
To repent and turn to You

I’m crying out to You now
As I make my New Year’s vow
I’ll tell You I love You
And I’ll honor You somehow
Hear my promise to You in this New Year’s vow
I give You all of me
You’ll be all of my life
And I’ll never think twice
To do all that You have for me
In my New Year’s vow # Chorus

Lord I’ll do my best to do all that I say
I’m not perfect but I know it’s okay
If I stumble You won’t condemn my shame
I’m going to make a vow to repent and turn to You

#

It’s a new year this year is different
From the other ones

#


I think some people on both sides need to read this. This goes back to homosexuality being a sin. If it indeed is, why should the Christians or anybody care. While we persecute as a society the liars, the adulterers, and thiefs, it nothing compared to what some, Christian or not, do to homosexuals. We don't say the liars should have a one ticket way to Hell.

You say they should turn away from their sins for being Gay, but do you turn away 100% of you sins. I know I don't. By that I meant that I don't want to do them, but still do anyway.

-----------------------------------------------------

Now on to the ones who think the Christians MUST follow the bible to the letter or they are not Christians. Christianity is not about a bunch of laws from the Old Testament. It is about our forgiveness that was given to us for free. Does that mean we should go out on wild nights of debauchery, no because that is not the message that Jesus sent out. We are his messengers in this world, which is why we TRY to follow the rules to set his example. We ask for his forgiveness because we realize doing good will not cut it like many think. We want to turn our lives around, but we need Jesus' help

And a repeat of a previous post so that GoofyGirl and any one who agrees with her will see it, why should you care if they are happy with a wife and children. What is your right to say it is lie. If they were born with it doesn't make it uncurable.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

Hi, discernment! I meant posted on, not started- sorry! Thanks for pointing that out.

Hi, Hamlet! I have a new best friend!

I will definitely make sure you are not a faux pas!

It is definitely no white shoes after Labor Day. Unless you are a nurse. We love Nurses.

Next, let's discuss the forgiving nature of the A-line skirt.

 

[hamlet35_2000]

Hi, discernment! I meant posted on, not started- sorry! Thanks for pointing that out.

Hi, Hamlet! I have a new best friend!

I will definitely make sure you are not a faux pas!

It is definitely no white shoes after Labor Day. Unless you are a nurse. We love Nurses.

Next, let's discuss the forgiving nature of the A-line skirt.

oh, yes-- especially if its in one of the nature colors....

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

oh, yes-- especially if its in one of the nature colors....

Yes, of course. Like Raspberry, Mango, Tangerine, Strawberry, Kiwi, oh wait, those are margaritas. . .

 

[MrVisible]

I've been staying out of this argument because, frankly, religion doesn't concern me one bit until it spreads out of churches and into legislation. You can believe your god tells you whatever you want to believe he tells you, and it's no skin off my nose.

But I warned discernment after our last encounter that I would make sure he doesn't post his insidious and underinformed opinions elsewhere on the boards without popping in to say hello, so here goes.

UGH!!! For the zillionith time: Show me irrefutable medical and/or scientific proof that homosexuality is inborn.

As we discussed earlier, the idea that millions upon millions of homosexual people are lying to you about how they came to be gay is the basis upon which this argument is built. It starts out by assuming that the other side is dishonest about the central issue of that debate.

I didn't choose, at the age of twelve, to be homosexual.

Now, am I a liar? Or are you wrong?

You have no direct experience with this, while I do. You can either call me too deceitful to believe on this subject, or revise your thinking.

During the last discussion, discernment admitted that I had homosexual urges that I had no choice about:

I think you honestly believe in why you think you are gay.

There was a choice involved when you acted upon your homosexual urges. You chose that path. No one made you act upon those urges. You did so on your own free will.

But now he's again making the exact same point that he conceded in the last debate. You can decide for yourself who's being dishonest here.

Do you discount people who have turned from their homosexual lifestyles?

Ah, yes, the old ex-gay card. Gee, have any hard studies on how successful those programs are? No? 'Cause there aren't any.

But don't take my word for it. Try the American Psychiatric Association.

The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims (7,8,9).

Is there anyone who doesn't think these programs work? How about John Evans, the co-founder of Love in Action, which was probably the first ex-gay group in the U.S..

"In the past 30 years since leaving the 'ex-gay' ministry I have seen nothing but shattered lives, depression and even suicide among those connected with the 'ex-gay' movement," Evans writes in his letter to John Smid, Love In Action's current director. "I challenge Christians to investigate all sides of the issue of being gay and Christian. The Church has been wrong in the past regarding moral issues and I'm sure there will be more before Christ returns."

So, discernment, are you going to stay and debate this time, in a reasoned and cogent manner? Are you going to back up your arguments? Are you actually willing to change your mind on these issues if you are proven wrong? Or are you going to make the same retreat that you did last time, and pop up again elsewhere with your ignorance intact?

 

[Glendamax]

I just found this thread today, and when I get a chance, I'll read through what others have posted.

What I don't understand is how a Christian church official is going to say that Homosexuality is okay when the bible states that it is an abomination, marriage is between one woman and one man, and fornication is a sin. Is this person choosing to ignore those parts of the bible? I can completely understand embracing homosexuality if you do not believe the Bible is the word of God. But if you do, AND you are a church official, how can this be?

 

[snowwite]

I tried that one on them already. It didn't work.

It's always interesting how the hatemongers only choose the chapter and verse that reinforces thier hatred,bigotry and small mindedness. I am just kinda surprised to find it alive and well on the Dis boards.I did see that you tried as well. I was kinda thinking that there is strength in numbers and I was hoping that we could encourage more kind,tolerant,carig people to speak up.

 

[goofy4tink]

My brother did not 'choose' his lifestyle. In fact, if you ask him, he would say he would do just about anything to be considered 'normal'. He tried the hetero lifestyle. Said it made him feel the same way I would feel about spending my life with a woman..not great, that's not my lifestyle. Do I think that my brother is condemned to an eternity in hell? Nope. I think God knows him, and his struggle. Would I want my son/daughter to come home and tell me they were gay? Nope, but not for the reasons you would think. More because of the attitudes of people. I don't agree with any militant groups...of any kind or persuasion. Live your life and let me live mine.
Do I think Jesus/God should be allowed back in public school? Sure do, but I also think we should be able to honor all religious holidays and observances. Maybe in this way we could learn to be more compassionate towards different ideas.
What the Espicopal Church does is of no consequence to anyone other than Episcopalians.....stop saying it matters to you if you aren't a member of the church in question. Does the stance the RC church takes on birth control affect me? Nope. Can I argue about what it does to the nation as a whole? I guess I could, but what difference is it going to make? None. I disagree, so what. Choose a church that comes close to the same beliefs you have...plain and simple. Seems to be plenty of 'church shopping' going on. If you don't like what the newly elected PB says, move on. Don't start quoting verses from the Bible to me. We can all go there. Doesn't matter one iota to me. I believe what I believe. You are not going to change my very firm foundations. Want to hate gays? Knock yourself out. Perhaps we are all wrong and we'll be sent to purgatory by God, because we 'ignored' His word. I don't think that's going to happen, but I guess it's possible. But, again, that's my belief. You don't have to have the same ones.
I don't think there is anything worse than those who spout their beliefs as the only correct ones, making comments on others contrary beliefs. Last time I checked, this was the United States of America and I'm free to choose whatever I choose to believe. You don't have to like it, or to agree with it anymore than I have to agree with or like your particular beliefs.
I choose to depend on God to decide who is right and who is wrong, in that final judgement. If I've gotten it wrong, oh well, I tried to do the right thing.

 

[discernment]

I've been staying out of this argument because, frankly, religion doesn't concern me one bit until it spreads out of churches and into legislation. You can believe your god tells you whatever you want to believe he tells you, and it's no skin off my nose.

But I warned discernment after our last encounter that I would make sure he doesn't post his insidious and underinformed opinions elsewhere on the boards without popping in to say hello, so here goes.

Lets not be disingenious now. Stop all your posturing and grandstanding and tell the WHOLE story about our exchange. On how I repeatedly PM'ed you asking for a rational discourse on the whole subject in a forum more suited for an honest exchange of ideas but you denied that request and now parade around claiming some kind of "victory". Nice try. But if that makes you feel better than more power to you and I am glad I could help your obviously damaged self esteem and self loathing as a direct consequence of the lifestyle choice that you have made.

Now, to answer your specific claims:

I've been staying out of this argument because, frankly, religion doesn't concern me one bit until it spreads out of churches and into legislation. You can believe your god tells you whatever you want to believe he tells you, and it's no skin off my nose.

But I see you have no problem when parts of the "gay" agenda spreads out into legislation. I imagine you have no problems when teh agenda spreads into public schools where books like "i have 2 daddies" are read to elementary kids. Or gay "education" rallies are held in the high schools. You have no problems with this because you know the key to gay rights in this country is to normalize the homosexual lifestyle. It is ironic that liberals will scream to the top of lungs when they claim that conservatives are trying to force their beliefs on others while at the same time they are trying to normalize teh homosexual lifestyle and even have a mayor ignore the will of the people in his state and break the law and marry homosexuals. I would imagine you applauded that move.

As we discussed earlier, the idea that millions upon millions of homosexual people are lying to you about how they came to be gay is the basis upon which this argument is built. It starts out by assuming that the other side is dishonest about the central issue of that debate.

I didn't choose, at the age of twelve, to be homosexual.

Now, am I a liar? Or are you wrong?

You have no direct experience with this, while I do. You can either call me too deceitful to believe on this subject, or revise your thinking.

During the last discussion, discernment admitted that I had homosexual urges that I had no choice about:
But now he's again making the exact same point that he conceded in the last debate. You can decide for yourself who's being dishonest here..

I am sorry but experience does not equal fact nor is experience a basis for establishing the basis of why someone has homosexual urges.

If you have been following along with this thread you will see where people have asked why people would choose to be homosexual. People will often make bad choices in their life that they know are fundamentally sinful and worng but then try and rationalize and justify this choice in order to overcome those feelings of self-loathing and overwhelming guilt. It is everywhere in our society today. Personal responsibility is becoming a thing of the past because people just cant help themselves or they were born that way. We will even make up a new disease or condition that show that you had no choice but to engage in your destructive lifestyle. "it is not my fault" seems to be the mantra of society today.

Like I said before, I am not going to call you a liar because it is something you truly believe in but I will say your "experience" is not backed up by fact and your "experience" and that of others is a self serving mechanism to belive in the normalization of their lifestyle.

Now onto what I have said before regarding "homosexual urges":

Would I call you a liar, no.

However, I do find that you are rationalizing and trying to justify your lifestyle choice. We all may have urges from time to time to engage in inappropriate behavior but here is the key, we choose whether to act on those urges or impulses.

Therefore, I believe that indeed your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago. Now, I can not presume to know what environmental element made you have these "attractions" you are describing.

I think you honestly believe in why you think you are gay.

There was a choice involved when you acted upon your homosexual urges. You chose that path. No one made you act upon those urges. You did so on your own free will.

I believe that your homosexual urges were a product of your environment and upbringing. They were not a product of some genetic predisposition.

Again, you chose to act upon those urges. You have always had a choice. You picked the path that you went down.

You will see that the medical and scientific community has not proven their is a "gay" gene. So, since one is not born that way then it comes down to a choice. Now, we all have urges to do sinful things we shouldnt do. I believe as stated before that homosexual urges are a product of nurture not nature.

True, you may not know where your homosexual urges came from or were a result of but you had and you still do have a "choice" to act upon those urges.

Like I may see a particularly mature 16 year old in a bikini on the beach and feel some sexual urges toward her. However, I have a choice rather to act on those particularly inappropriate urges.

I was consistent in this thread and the thread of our exchange. The homosexual lifestyle is a choice. Youhave a choice rather to act on your sexual urges.

Not a matter of dishonest at all. But again if your posturing makes you feel better than have it.

Ah, yes, the old ex-gay card. Gee, have any hard studies on how successful those programs are? No? 'Cause there aren't any.

But don't take my word for it. Try the American Psychiatric Association.

Is there anyone who doesn't think these programs work? How about John Evans, the co-founder of Love in Action, which was probably the first ex-gay group in the U.S.

Oh yes, the same APA that once called homosexuality a disorder but reversed their position due to political pressure.

I could point you to studies by the folks at NARTH but of course you will discount them as another homophobic group.

But as a poster said earlier, you will discount the experiences of 100s of ex-gay men but then ask us to believe in your experiences or the experiences of millions of gay men. SO we are give more credit to your experiences to that of a recovering homosexual? Which one is it?

So, discernment, are you going to stay and debate this time, in a reasoned and cogent manner? Are you going to back up your arguments? Are you actually willing to change your mind on these issues if you are proven wrong? Or are you going to make the same retreat that you did last time, and pop up again elsewhere with your ignorance intact?

Are you going to engage in an hoenst discussion without all your grandstanding, name calling amd posturing? Are you going to back up your arguments beyond your self serving subjective "experiences"? Are you willing to engage me in a better forum for us to exchange ideas or are you more interested in posturing? The invitation is always open if you are truly interested in having an open discussion. But we both know that is not your intent or motivation.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Great spin, but sorry, it doesn't wash. One must "Interpret" some phrases in the Bible and they can not be taken literally, as I think you finally admitted. We are in complete agreement here. We part company when you assert your intepretation is correct and mine is not. If I am capable of taking things out of context, then so are you. Non-winable debate.

It does wash, but if you choose to see it otherwise, that is of course your right. I never said that passages don't need to be interpreted - they do. There is also a correct interpretation, and numerous incorrect ones, and it IS possible to find the correct one, if you study enough. Most people don't, or don't care to.

I do agree it is a non-winnable debate. If it were possible to argue and convince someone of Christianity, then it is also possible for someone else to come along and argue them out of it. It has to be more than just being convinced in the mind, you have to be convinced also in the heart.

 

[RickinNYC]

Who said anything hateful or bigoted? Those Christians who help God's children return to His path per His Word are the one's showing love. Those who say "ignore the Word of God and just go with your feelings" are the one's not showing love.

God says to help a brother who stumbles and falls in ditch, not leave him there and tell him he belongs there -- "the ditch is the true you brother."

Oh my God, Joe, you are the funniest guy EVER! What a crack up!

 

[RickinNYC]

How many threads other than this have I started?

Methinks someone really DOES have an agenda, eh little buddy? Well, your agenda is truly bigger than my agenda.

So, you lost your argument on the other post, using the guise that you felt attacked on the gay/lesbian thread, yet you continue to post here on the Community Board, on the very same topic? Is that because the majority are heterosexual over here? Safety in numbers?

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Again, only according to your Church's particular interpretation. Another's interpretation is that they "follow Christ and the Bible" just fine, thank you very much. Why is your interpretation regarding "wants and needs" the true and right way to do it? We are only human. I don't believe we have the right to say "My (and my Church's) interpretation of Christianity is better than yours". That's all I am trying to say and I don't understand why some don't get this.

Some don't get it b/c some don't believe it, that's why. You are basing what you say on the premise that there's more than one CORRECT interpretation, not just that there's more than one interpretation at all. If there's more than one CORRECT interpretation, why even have a Bible, b/c if in the end it's up to what you want it to say, and your interpretation is correct, did you even need a Bible to get to that point? Couldn't you have just decided what you wanted to do and done it?

Many operate under the premise that there is only ONE CORRECT interpretation of the Bible, that being what God wanted us to understand. And that premise includes the belief that the CORRECT interpretation is KNOWABLE, and if not followed, the Bible is therefore not followed. The Bible has to be absolutely correct, not relatively correct, or it's no good.

 

[goofygirl]

I find it laughable that Discernment will tell us not to judge Rush Limbaugh, but will go on and on about homosexuals being sinners!

I guess abusing drugs and fraud is ok and better than being gay.

 

[RickinNYC]

Not at all. Just pointing out part of the "agenda".

If people disagree with homosexuality then immediately call them a homophobe, bigot, or hate filled. But we have covered this ground before so I wont go on.

But I appreciate you helping me prove my point. I can always count on you for your insightful and witty retorts.

It baffles me when someone IS indeed homophobic gets all upitty when called homophobic. Can someone please 'splain? Anyone? Beuhler?

 

[ncdisneyfan]

As a confirmed Episcopalian, I decided I should do some reading up on what exactly my "church" stands for and I have to admit I was really in the dark about much of it.

Sadly, this is the case for many people. Kudos to this lady for finding out. I think many would be surprised at what their church actually stands for, doctrinally, socially, etc...

I think I'm not an Episcopalian in my heart. Ruling out Catholicism, can anyone suggest another denomination that is conservative, traditional and ritualistic like the Episcopal church is? I like the formality and structure of a traditional service.

My advice would be to FIRST find out what another denomination believes, doctrinally. If those beliefs hold exactly to the teachings of the Bible, THEN look and see if the church appears to be a place where you could thrive and grow spiritually. You need to make sure the beliefs are right BEFORE you decide how you like the church. Doing it in reverse order is dangerous.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Just for the record, this is exactly what the majority of denominations believe. I know this because it was a subject that was discussed at a nationwide/multi-denominational Christian conference, called Spring Harvest that we went to last year.

Incidentely, it was lead by a Christian who was gay. He was born that way and for a time was a violent (literally) protester against Christianity. This all changed one day when he stormed a church who followed the Bible and not their own interpretation. He was not kicked out (even though he deserved to be arrested), and ended up giving his life to Jesus when a little old lady (God works in mysterious ways ) gently told him that he was a child of God's who loved him for who he was. He immediately knew that God loved him regardless of any of his sins. Obviously, he was still gay, but as he got closer and closer to God and with the non-judgemental support from the Christians around him, he found his desire for men had faded. He was living within God's heart for him. He is now married (to a woman) with a couple of kids and runs a support group for both Christian and non-Christian homosexuals, and knows/feels he is living as God originally intended him to be. He now teaches exactly what NCdisneyfan said here, because that is fact. He was shown this in practice, however, when the little old lady followed the NT instruction to "Love your neighbour as yourself".

My point is to show the theory of what NCdisneyfan said in practice. I'm not saying that we are all better off being straight, married with kids (however he and thousands of other Christians who were gay do say they are), but that if Churches/denominations followed God and his word, not their own desires, well....to put it bluntly .....it works. This guy followed God and his word, he didn't join a denomination that suited his desires, and his life is now radically changed, and in his words, not mine, for the better.

The majority of churches will show exactly this same non-judgemental behaviour that this chap recieved, not, as I feel a lot believe, that the "non-liberal" denominations will banish them from Christianity. I am sure many will have stories like that, and I am not surprised, but people who behave like that in the name of "religion" are not following Christ.

Katy, very well said. I heard someone on the radio yesterday coming home from work (don't remember his name), who was formerly a homosexual and regrets it now. He said "the sin is not in being attracted to someone of the same sex - that is just temptation, and it's not a sin to be tempted. The sin lies when a person acts on those temptations and enters into sin knowingly." I thought that was well said. This somewhat speaks to the issue of "I was just born this way." It may be that some people are naturally pre-disposed to be more attracted to those of the opposite sex - heck, I don't know, b/c I know I'm not one of those people, but I can't say for sure b/c I've never had the feelings. But when those feelings are acted upon, contrary to the teachings of Scripture, that is where the sin enters. And as saxsoon said, we are ALL sinners, and that chiefly includes me. We just choose different sins to get tangled up in. No sin is any better or any worse than any other, that is pretty clear, b/c all sin keeps you out of Heaven. And that is why the Bible says you can't continue to sin (habitually, b/c we'll all still sin sometimes). When you're a Christian, sin should cause you such guilt b/c you know you're not doing as Christ would have that it causes you to work that much harder to change.

 

[RickinNYC]

Discernment, I find the following quote rather interesting don't you?

Did you just "judge" this man's integrity and honesty? Is this what you were taught about "judging" others?

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1148921&page=2&pp=15

Sound a little familiar to you, little buddy?

I find it rather baffling that, on one hand, you are placing judgement upon an entire community of men and women in the world, but on the other hand, you are playing the "whine" game when it comes to one person who is a drug addict.

You're "discussion" against homosexuality no longer holds a single ounce of water due to your complete absence of credibility.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

I chose not to bear children, ever. Since its a choice, can it be fixed? Nope. Nothing, and I mean nothing, would ever reverse this choice, no matter what kind of extreme "therapy" I went through. Likewise, people who say they desire children also say their *choice* can't be reversed. How about you, who chose to be Christian? Hey, I bet you can be an athiest or Satanist if the right "therapist" got a hold of you, right?

If your life desire was to NOT have children, and you chose not to, and didn't, we thank you for not bringing unwanted children into the world. That, at least, was realizing what you didn't want and being sure to avoid it, and for that I would say "good job."

And for the record, no therapist, or anyone, for that matter, could convince me to not be a Christian. I would die before I renounced my Savior.