I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[ncdisneyfan]

Right--my point was we don't know whose idea is the correct one.

2 questions:

1) Do you believe in absolute truth?

2) Do you believe that only the principles of absolute truth, religiously speaking, will ensure you will go to Heaven?

 

[Laura]

2 questions:

1) Do you believe in absolute truth?

2) Do you believe that only the principles of absolute truth, religiously speaking, will ensure you will go to Heaven?

1. Yes. We just don't know what it is.

2. No. I believe we all go to heaven, and then are reincarnated in accordance to how we lived our past life. Is this THE absolute truth? I don't know for sure.

Relativism=your guess is as good as mine.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

I did answer, but I didn't make it clear. They all come from the same place. Can't people have a sense of right and wrong without being religious?

I don't get it. You say they "all come from the same place", but you don't say what that "place" is. What is this place that our "sense" of moral decency, of right and wrong, come from? What is it based upon?

 

[Laura]

I don't get it. You say they "all come from the same place", but you don't say what that "place" is. What is this place that our "sense" of moral decency, of right and wrong, come from? What is it based upon?

You're being unnecessarily obtuse. I used common sense as an example, because there is no "place" that common sense comes from. It just is. There's no "Book of Common Sense" that we all refer to. Just collective wisdom coming from years of past civilization. My morals come from within. I may be inspired by teachings of religion and augment it, or use a phrase from it (do unto others...) but I know what's right and wrong without God telling me what to do. Don't you? You haven't answered that.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

1. Yes. We just don't know what it is.

2. No. I believe we all go to heaven, and then are reincarnated in accordance to how we lived our past life. Is this THE absolute truth? I don't know for sure.

Relativism=your guess is as good as mine.

OK, based on that, here's a couple more:

1) Do you believe absolute truth is knowable, even if you don't THINK you know what it is, currently?

2) What are these beliefs based upon?

 

[Laura]

OK, based on that, here's a couple more:

1) Do you believe absolute truth is knowable, even if you don't THINK you know what it is, currently?

2) What are these beliefs based upon?

1. I don't know.

2. The basis of my beliefs is none of your business.

 

[DisneyfeverTN]

Very interesting discussion. It's too bad some people can't just have tolerance and accept that not everyone is the same or has the same beliefs. My step-brother is gay. I work with several gay people. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. They are all wonderful people and have every right to live their lives the way they want to. I believe they were born that way. If you don't believe that, it's fine. It's ok for people to have different beliefs.
Can't people just accept that not everyone is the same?
As far as believing and following the teachings of the Bible. - it's fine with me if you do or you don't. I think the Bible was written by men, who put in their own beliefs. It is a very fascinating book though, with a lot of insightful information. However, I find other spiritual books just as fascinating. I teach my children to think for themselves and to NEVER believe something just because another person tells them it is true. My kids attend a Christian school. I tell them to respect the teachings in the school. They also need to think for themselves. I like the education they get there.
People that feel secure in themselves don't worry about what other people do, as long as they're not hurting innocent people.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

You're being unnecessarily obtuse.

Sorry, not meaning to be, but I do appreciate the Shawshank Redemption reference!

I used common sense as an example, because there is no "place" that common sense comes from. It just is. There's no "Book of Common Sense" that we all refer to. Just collective wisdom coming from years of past civilization. My morals come from within. I may be inspired by teachings of religion and augment it, or use a phrase from it (do unto others...) but I know what's right and wrong without God telling me what to do. Don't you? You haven't answered that.

I'm not sure a lot of people even think about this. Like you, they think "it just is." But WHY? You say it's collective wisdom coming from years of past civilization. OK, what about the first people (and I mean the VERY first people on Earth), where did they get their "common sense" or "sense of moral decency" from? They had no years of past civilization to rely on, so it couldn't have come from that, right? They WERE civilization at that point! If, as you say, it is not based on religion, then it is "based" on something - it has to be. You say your morals "come from within" - who put them within you? If nobody knows absolute truth, and we're all just guessing, then why can't I say "I'm going to murder Bill today, b/c I feel like it", if nothing within me says I shouldn't do that? I think we can agree that there IS something within all of us that GIVES us the sense of right and wrong, of moral decency. You asked if I know what's right and wrong without God telling me? I personally say "No", and here's why:

Romans 2:14-15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Our "conscience", the "law written on our hearts", was placed there by God Himself, that's where it comes from, I believe.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

1. I don't know.

2. The basis of my beliefs is none of your business.

And this is where it always puzzles me. You can be honest, and say that you don't know whether absolute truth is knowable, which I believe many people would also answer the same way you do. I believe it can be, and is known.

But then when asked about the basis for beliefs you've already stated, thus you must have them, you don't want to talk about them. I will gladly tell you, and most people can probably guess, the basis for my beliefs, b/c I believe them with all my heart, and enjoy sharing that with others. I guess I just wonder why, if you believe in something, you won't also share the basis for your beliefs. But, as you say, that most certainly is your business.

 

[Laura]

Sorry, not meaning to be, but I do appreciate the Shawshank Redemption reference!

I'm not sure a lot of people even think about this. Like you, they think "it just is." But WHY? You say it's collective wisdom coming from years of past civilization. OK, what about the first people (and I mean the VERY first people on Earth), where did they get their "common sense" or "sense of moral decency" from? They had no years of past civilization to rely on, so it couldn't have come from that, right? They WERE civilization at that point! If, as you say, it is not based on religion, then it is "based" on something - it has to be. You say your morals "come from within" - who put them within you? If nobody knows absolute truth, and we're all just guessing, then why can't I say "I'm going to murder Bill today, b/c I feel like it", if nothing within me says I shouldn't do that? I think we can agree that there IS something within all of us that GIVES us the sense of right and wrong, of moral decency. You asked if I know what's right and wrong without God telling me? I personally say "No", and here's why:

Romans 2:14-15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Our "conscience", the "law written on our hearts", was placed there by God Himself, that's where it comes from, I believe.

Your scripture doesn't specifically say God wrote it on your heart. You just want to believe it is that way because it fits in with the rest of your belief system. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though.

 

[cardaway]

Your scripture doesn't specifically say God wrote it on your heart. You just want to believe it is that way because it fits in with the rest of your belief system. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though.

And speaking of movie quotes:

Spectator I: I think it was "Blessed are the cheesemakers".
Mrs. Gregory: Aha, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
Gregory: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

 

[eclectics]

Sorry, not meaning to be, but I do appreciate the Shawshank Redemption reference!


I'm not sure a lot of people even think about this. Like you, they think "it just is." But WHY? You say it's collective wisdom coming from years of past civilization. OK, what about the first people (and I mean the VERY first people on Earth), where did they get their "common sense" or "sense of moral decency" from? They had no years of past civilization to rely on, so it couldn't have come from that, right? They WERE civilization at that point! If, as you say, it is not based on religion, then it is "based" on something - it has to be. You say your morals "come from within" - who put them within you? If nobody knows absolute truth, and we're all just guessing, then why can't I say "I'm going to murder Bill today, b/c I feel like it", if nothing within me says I shouldn't do that? I think we can agree that there IS something within all of us that GIVES us the sense of right and wrong, of moral decency. You asked if I know what's right and wrong without God telling me? I personally say "No", and here's why:

Romans 2:14-15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Our "conscience", the "law written on our hearts", was placed there by God Himself, that's where it comes from, I believe.

I think our inner soul determines our morality and what type of person we are. Question is, who put this soul in the bag of bones and flesh we walk around in? Some say God, some say some sort of indeterminate higher power, some say you are just born with it, and some say it's all hogwash. Take your pick. You can be a very good person and still be an athiest. You can also accept the fact that you have a soul but disagree that "God" was the one that put it there. Society and your religious beliefs can teach right from wrong but your soul guides your moral core, imho.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Your scripture doesn't specifically say God wrote it on your heart. You just want to believe it is that way because it fits in with the rest of your belief system. Doesn't mean you're wrong, though.

Please reference Jeremiah 31:33 or Hebrews 8:10, among others. These clearly state that it is God who writes these on our heart. I don't believe it "just" b/c I want to, but b/c that's what the Bible says, and since I believe the Bible, I believe God wrote them on our hearts.

 

[ncdisneyfan]

I think our inner soul determines our morality and what type of person we are. Question is, who put this soul in the bag of bones and flesh we walk around in? Some say God, some say some sort of indeterminate higher power, some say you are just born with it, and some say it's all hogwash. Take your pick. You can be a very good person and still be an athiest. You can also accept the fact that you have a soul but disagree that "God" was the one that put it there. Society and your religious beliefs can teach right from wrong but your soul guides your moral core, imho.

I believe it is an absolute truth that God put our soul there. I believe this truth to be absolute for everyone, whether they believe it is or not. That doesn't take away their right to their opinion, nor does it make me "intolerant" of them as people, I just believe it. Here is a passage from 2 Timothy 4:3-4:

"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

I believe this is what occurs today. We believe what we want to believe, what feels good, what makes us least accountable to anyone or anything, and we say it's our decision. I can't help it, it is what it is. But I believe it's wrong.

 

[goofygirl]

Oh man......I wasn't going to get into this, I really wasn't.
You know....as a cradle born Episcopalian, and a sitting member of my church's governing board, I have to say something most of you will find somewhat shocking....the Bible was written by mere mortals!! It is said that the words in the Bible are the word of God, that have been written down by man. Well, I have to say that some of it leaves me wondering. Do I believe every little thing that is written in the Bible? Nope...guess I should pack my short-shorts now, it's gonna be hot where I'm going!! I have seen 5 priests, sit and read the exact same passage in 5 different publications of Bibles and come up with 5 different thoughts as to the meanings.
I think we would be better served following the 10 Commandments in the long run. Do I worry about offending my Jewish friends as I sit eating a nice pork roast, or offending my RC buddies if I eat a nice cheeseburger on Friday night during Lent? Nope. Their beliefs are their beliefs. Just as mine are mine. Do I respect thier beliefs? Sure do.

My uncle, a deacon in his church in Manchester NH, yes the hotbed of the Gene Robinson controversy, has left his church because of the whole thing. He thinks its an abomination. My mother, his sister, on the other hand, thought it was a great thing to have an openly gay bishop. I'm sure that having this new PB is going to cause a bit of flack....may even divide some areas of the church. But, it will come out fine. Most of us really aren't all that concerned with what others are doing in their bedrooms. Of course, if that behavior is hurting children, that's a whole different story. But, to the best of my knowledge, most of the gay/lesbian people I know (and it's a huge number, including family members) are hugely against groups such as nambla..hate the whole idea, and have no more interest in being with children than you or I have.

So, I guess I'll leave the judging to God, when I get there. If God doesn't like the way I've lived my life, then he/she can deal with it then. I'll take my chances. Others can do the same...I'm not judging them, that's God's job.

Oh, and by the way....we Episcopalians would love to see more of you. And are very happy to see that we have new members...welcome to the group!!! We are, obviously, a diverse group, and mostly open minded, trying to be non-judgemental!!!

So, time will tell how our new PB does. Not sure what her previous history in marine biology says about her...shouldn't make any difference. There are a lot of people taking up the church as a late in life career..I don't think we should look down our noses at them just because they came to the church late in life.

Great post!! As a new Episcopalian myself, I really appreciate what you said.

I admire Gene Robinson for his courage to "come out" and deal with everything that's happened since his ordaination. It must have been terribly stressful. I can understand why he had a bout with alcoholism.

Peace to him and the new PB!!

Maybe we should start our own Episcopalian thread and get to know each other!

 

[goofy4tink]

In this whole argument (discussion) about where we get our ideas of right and wrong from, if not the Bible or religious teachings, we seem to have forgotten that the ideas of right and wrong have indeed changed over the years....I'm sure that way back, when cavemen roamed the earth, they had a whole different set of rules than we have now...their right and wrongs are surely going to clash with current ideas. Not so very long ago it was thought to be okay, and desirable, to own slaves...after all, they were only one step higher than animals right?, or that men were allowed to beat their wives...they were chattel and as such 'owned' by the men. We can go back in history, and into other religions, and see many different sets of rights and wrongs.
My ds, now 34 y/o, was brought up in a pretty much church-free home. We tried to live by the golden rule, and tried to 'do the right thing'. He has only recently come to attend a church (somewhat alternative I believe, in Fl) due to a girlfriend. He says he has started to 'see' what I've been talking about the past 15 yrs. or so. I only returned to my church after getting married there and making some new friends, one thing let do another. However, I think he led a pretty decent life up until now, without believeing in a 'higher authority' per se.
I can't imagine that all those non-Christians out there are doomed to an eternity in purgatory because they are not Christians. My God....what do you think happened to the Native Americans when they died? Or Jews or Buddhists or agnostics??? I'm sorry, but I don't think we Christians have the lock on going to heaven. The God I believe in just isn't like that...yeah, I know..how the heck do I know. I don't know...just hoping that's the case.
So, is society doomed because of the new Episcopalian PB? Sorry, don't think so. Are we on the road to damnation? Could be...maybe we'll all be turned into pillars of salt soon!!!!

 

[jimmiej]

If I can jump in here...I've heard that question asked many times and personally, I don't see how Christians have a right to ask it. Christianity puts all of the emphasis on the belief that only through belief in Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you get into Heaven, regardless of your actions here on Earth. Your religion is one where what you believe is more important than the kind of life you lead. Seeing that Jesus' death relieved the world of the burden of it's collective sin, all evil deeds and moral imperfections are forgiven and entrance to Heaven is guarenteed simply by following that one tenet.

How "good" does one have to be to earn heaven/eternal life? What's the bench mark? Are you there yet? If not, how many more good things do you have to do yet? My point is, we can NEVER measure up to a Holy God. That's why Christ came. If you've read the OT, you know God always required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins.

Where's the reason for Christians to live a good life or follow the rules, other than a belief that maybe it makes God happy?

Isn't that reason enough?

Matthew 25

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

God says it's a sin.

God does not change.

Amen.

 

[Laura]

Please reference Jeremiah 31:33 or Hebrews 8:10, among others. These clearly state that it is God who writes these on our heart. I don't believe it "just" b/c I want to, but b/c that's what the Bible says, and since I believe the Bible, I believe God wrote them on our hearts.

Well, let's pretend I believe in the Bible for a moment. (I don't, but let's pretend.) Two refer to the covenant God made with the Jews, and your first quote from Romans doesn't refer to that--instead it speaks of Gentiles. According to Jews, we Gentiles don't need to follow Jewish law if we're good people.

Romans:
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."


Jeremiah:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Hebrews:
“For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people."

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Well, let's pretend I believe in the Bible for a moment. (I don't, but let's pretend.) Two refer to the covenant God made with the Jews, and your first quote from Romans doesn't refer to that--instead it speaks of Gentiles. According to Jews, we Gentiles don't need to follow Jewish law if we're good people.

Romans:
"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."


Jeremiah:
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

Hebrews:
“For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people."

Not sure of your point. Jew or Gentile, it's clear that God is the writer of the law, and He puts it on man's heart. There's a whole lot more to Romans than just as trivial as you make it sound...