I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[Deb in IA]

Yeah, listen to a woman with background in studying squids and oysters. Maybe, heres a crazy thought, she shoudl have studied more theology.

Coming late to this open-minded discussion , but how much more theology do you think the Rev. Jefferts Schori should study, since she already has both a master's and doctorate degree in the field?

She received a B.S. in biology from Stanford University, 1974; an M.S. in Oceanography from Oregon State University, 1977; a Ph.D. from Oregon State University, 1983; an M.Div. from Church Divinity School of the Pacific, 1994; and a D.D. from Church Divinity School of the Pacific, 2001.

In addition:

Prior to ordination, she was a visiting assistant professor in the Oregon State University Department of Religious Studies; a visiting scientist at the Oregon State University Department of Oceanography; and an oceanographer with the National Marine Fisheries Service in Seattle. She is also an active, instrument-rated pilot, who has logged more than 500 flight-hours.

 

[Saxsoon]

I would generally agree with that.


Here's where we might diverge somewhat. Jesus' death paid the penalty for our collective sins, meaning that we no longer have to suffer the ultimate penalty of eternal death, since Christ paid that debt for us. All of our "evil deeds and moral imperfections", if you will, are not AUTOMATICALLY forgiven; we must still ask forgiveness for our sins, after realizing that we are all sinful by nature. Additionally, though we are not "saved" by WHAT we do, i.e. saved by works (which is quite clear in Scripture, see Eph. 2: 8-9 for example), our works are a DEMONSTRATION of our saving faith (this it what James alludes to in James 2). It is not the ACT of the works that saves us, i.e. "being nice" doesn't gain us entrance to Heaven, but rather "being nice", for example, is the result of our saving faith, as we are definitely called to love the Lord our God first and love our neighbors as ourselves second.

So for me, I would say that's not the "reason" for Christians to live a good life, but Christians who have a saving faith in Jesus Christ demonstrate that faith THROUGH their works.

Very good post.

Especially that last part. What good would it do to show worldly behavior in the school or workplace, and do good only in church. The second you leave, you go back to your worldly ways. Do I say I go and do the exact opposite, no that is very hard to do, which is why ask for God's help to make me a better person. I am a Christian not because I need to feel better than anyone else, but because I need him to help me.

 

[zagafi]

Oh man......I wasn't going to get into this, I really wasn't.
You know....as a cradle born Episcopalian, and a sitting member of my church's governing board, I have to say something most of you will find somewhat shocking....the Bible was written by mere mortals!! It is said that the words in the Bible are the word of God, that have been written down by man. Well, I have to say that some of it leaves me wondering. Do I believe every little thing that is written in the Bible? Nope...guess I should pack my short-shorts now, it's gonna be hot where I'm going!! I have seen 5 priests, sit and read the exact same passage in 5 different publications of Bibles and come up with 5 different thoughts as to the meanings.
I think we would be better served following the 10 Commandments in the long run. Do I worry about offending my Jewish friends as I sit eating a nice pork roast, or offending my RC buddies if I eat a nice cheeseburger on Friday night during Lent? Nope. Their beliefs are their beliefs. Just as mine are mine. Do I respect thier beliefs? Sure do.

My uncle, a deacon in his church in Manchester NH, yes the hotbed of the Gene Robinson controversy, has left his church because of the whole thing. He thinks its an abomination. My mother, his sister, on the other hand, thought it was a great thing to have an openly gay bishop. I'm sure that having this new PB is going to cause a bit of flack....may even divide some areas of the church. But, it will come out fine. Most of us really aren't all that concerned with what others are doing in their bedrooms. Of course, if that behavior is hurting children, that's a whole different story. But, to the best of my knowledge, most of the gay/lesbian people I know (and it's a huge number, including family members) are hugely against groups such as nambla..hate the whole idea, and have no more interest in being with children than you or I have.

So, I guess I'll leave the judging to God, when I get there. If God doesn't like the way I've lived my life, then he/she can deal with it then. I'll take my chances. Others can do the same...I'm not judging them, that's God's job.

Oh, and by the way....we Episcopalians would love to see more of you. And are very happy to see that we have new members...welcome to the group!!! We are, obviously, a diverse group, and mostly open minded, trying to be non-judgemental!!!

So, time will tell how our new PB does. Not sure what her previous history in marine biology says about her...shouldn't make any difference. There are a lot of people taking up the church as a late in life career..I don't think we should look down our noses at them just because they came to the church late in life.

Another Episcopalian chiming in to totally agree. I'm amazed that so many have no concept of how the Bible came to be. We will likely never know what the whole of the writings contain because (a) the Council of Nicea decided what would be included and (b) who knows what's been lost or suppressed over the span of history. How anyone thinks the Bible we use today is the inerrant word of God confounds me. It's been recorded by men, translated by men, *mistranslated* by men, and Heaven knows it's been used to oppress groups of people throughout history. So yes, I am a Christian, but I'm one with open eyes and brain. Thank God the Episcopal church uses Scripture, Tradition AND Reason.

 

[goofygirl]

Thank God the Episcopal church uses Scripture, Tradition AND Reason.

AMEN!!

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Another Episcopalian chiming in to totally agree. I'm amazed that so many have no concept of how the Bible came to be. We will likely never know what the whole of the writings contain because (a) the Council of Nicea decided what would be included and (b) who knows what's been lost or suppressed over the span of history. How anyone thinks the Bible we use today is the inerrant word of God confounds me. It's been recorded by men, translated by men, *mistranslated* by men, and Heaven knows it's been used to oppress groups of people throughout history. So yes, I am a Christian, but I'm one with open eyes and brain. Thank God the Episcopal church uses Scripture, Tradition AND Reason.

You claim they have reason because you agree with them on this issue.

The Word of God is clear on homosexuality. Those of us who feel the Bible is THE Word of God also "have open eyes and a brain," and know how the Bible "came to be."

 

[jimmiej]

Another Episcopalian chiming in to totally agree. I'm amazed that so many have no concept of how the Bible came to be. We will likely never know what the whole of the writings contain because (a) the Council of Nicea decided what would be included and (b) who knows what's been lost or suppressed over the span of history. How anyone thinks the Bible we use today is the inerrant word of God confounds me. It's been recorded by men, translated by men, *mistranslated* by men, and Heaven knows it's been used to oppress groups of people throughout history. So yes, I am a Christian, but I'm one with open eyes and brain. Thank God the Episcopal church uses Scripture, Tradition AND Reason.

If God is who He says He is, wouldn't He have the power to make sure His Word remains authentic? Why even use the Bible if it is full of mistakes? How do you know the part you're using is the Word of God or possibly just rantings of some nutcase named Paul? Tradition & reason are man-made & change with time on the whims of mankind. God never changes.

I'm still waiting for one of you who are Episcopalian to answer my earlier question: Does the Episcopalian church consider homosexual sex acts to be sinful? It appears your church is split on the answer, but what say you?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Hi

Another cradle Episcopalian here.

I'll take the bait. Yes, the Bible does condemn homosexual acts. Let's put that into historical context, shall we? The Bible comes to us from "divinely inspired" men of a patriarchal society. To condemn homosexuality was to encourage the dignity of all males. The New Testament prohibitions, particularly those given to us by Paul, don't recognize the possibility of a homosexual orientation. His prohibitions come from the perspective that those who engage in homosexual acts are leaving the flock --- that these are straight people who decided to go gay. We now understand differently. At least, many of us do.

So that leads us to the next big question, where do you draw the line? First, recognize that the Bible really doesn't contain a sexual code that we fully accept in society today. Today, we generally condemn prostitution, polygamy, levirate marriage, sex with slaves, concubinage, women as chattel, and early marriage of girls. Yet all of these are permitted under scripture. Likewise, the Bible condems intercourse during menstruation, celibacy, exogamy, naming sexual organs, nudity, ************, birth control, and the unclean nature of semen and menstrual fluids. Yet we generally don't condemn these things.

Therefore I choose the Jesus message: Love is good if it does not exploit or dominate. If a relationship is responsible, mutual, caring, and loving, it is consistent with Jesus' message.

 

[VSL]

Yeah, that Martin Luther guy and the reformation didnt have anything to do with the creation of Prostestantism.

Did I say that?
NO.

I was saying that the primary reason for it to become the 'national religion' (I don't know how else to say it) of Britain is because Henry VIII wanted to divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn.

Why do you think the reformation came about?

If Anne Boleyn had not introduced (gently) Henry to the works of Martin Luther (and so a way for them to get married) then the reformation may never have happened (and at least not during the reign of Henry VIII).

Sorry to get OT to everyone else. Please continue your non-British-history debate

 

[VanBrujah]

I'm still waiting for one of you who are Episcopalian to answer my earlier question...

I'm still waiting for YOU to answer my earlier questions:

If homosexuality is a choice, as you say it is, then why do you care if someone is gay or not? It's not as if you want to associate with any gay people in heaven - especially since they're not going to get there, right? Since you are clearly the world's most devout christian, you would never choose to be gay, and surely no one in your family would, either, so why do you care? What business is it of yours?

 

[zagafi]

You claim they have reason because you agree with them on this issue.

The Word of God is clear on homosexuality. Those of us who feel the Bible is THE Word of God also "have open eyes and a brain," and know how the Bible "came to be."

Interesting. You say you realize the Bible as we know it was assembled by men, yet you still believe it to be inerrant? You're ok knowing that men decided what was considered "correct", decided what was tossed out, and still think *only* God's word is in there? Again I say, interesting. I don't know many biblical scholars who'd agree on that point.

 

[zagafi]

If God is who He says He is, wouldn't He have the power to make sure His Word remains authentic? Why even use the Bible if it is full of mistakes? How do you know the part you're using is the Word of God or possibly just rantings of some nutcase named Paul? Tradition & reason are man-made & change with time on the whims of mankind. God never changes.

I'm still waiting for one of you who are Episcopalian to answer my earlier question: Does the Episcopalian church consider homosexual sex acts to be sinful? It appears your church is split on the answer, but what say you?

Well, hell, if that's the case then why does God *allow* murder, rape, genocide, infanticide, etc? Simple--God's not a giant puppetmaster. He GAVE us free will. I'm always amazed at people who want to quote chapter and verse to suit their own needs but fail utterly to embrace the ONE message that comes shining through regardless--Love God and love *one another*. There are no qualifications. That issue is crystalline.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Well, hell, if that's the case then why does God *allow* murder, rape, genocide, infanticide, etc? Simple--God's not a giant puppetmaster. He GAVE us free will. I'm always amazed at people who want to quote chapter and verse to suit their own needs but fail utterly to embrace the ONE message that comes shining through regardless--Love God and love *one another*. There are no qualifications. That issue is crystalline.

We all agree on the love part.

God said to love our fellow man, but He gave specific rules for sexual relations.

All loving parents have rules for their children and God is the perfect parent.

 

[LoraJ]

What Steve said.

At first I thought the link led to the wrong article, because my first (2nd, 3rd, 4th...) thought when reading it was "so?"

I had the same exact reaction. lol.

 

[TheBellhop]

God says it's a sin.

God does not change.

Amen.

What a fickle God yours is. What about the chapter in Exodus where God clearly dictates the first 10 Commandments to Moses? Moses comes right on down the mountain and smashes the tablets in his anger that the Israelites have chosen to worship the golden calf. But then God decides to dictate a totally different set of commandments to Moses.

So it's fine for God to change his mind then?

 

[Saxsoon]

What a fickle God yours is. What about the chapter in Exodus where God clearly dictates the first 10 Commandments to Moses? Moses comes right on down the mountain and smashes the tablets in his anger that the Israelites have chosen to worship the golden calf. But then God decides to dictate a totally different set of commandments to Moses.

So it's fine for God to change his mind then?

New Century Version Exodus 34:1

The Lord said to Moses, "Cut two more stone tablets like the first two, and I will write the same words on them that were on the first two stones which you broke."

I don't see much room for interpretation there.

 

[AnaheimGirl]

All loving parents have rules for their children and God is the perfect parent.

Yes, but it is up to the parent to teach these rules to their children, and hand out the consequences when they are disobeyed, not the child's brothers and sisters. Most parents don't like it when siblings try to rule each other in their name.

 

[TheBellhop]

New Century Version Exodus 34:1

The Lord said to Moses, "Cut two more stone tablets like the first two, and I will write the same words on them that were on the first two stones which you broke."

I don't see much room for interpretation there.

You didn't quote anything past that. God didn't say the same laws as he did in Exodus 20.

Here they are:


Exodus 20 is on top, Exodus 34 is on the bottom.


1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.


1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.


2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.


3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.


4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.


4. All the first-born are mine.


5. Honor your father and your mother.


5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.


6. You shall not kill.


6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.


7. You shall not commit adultery.


7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.


8. You shall not steal.


8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.


9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.


10. You shall not covet.


10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.

 

[jimmiej]

I'm still waiting for YOU to answer my earlier questions:

If homosexuality is a choice, as you say it is, then why do you care if someone is gay or not? It's not as if you want to associate with any gay people in heaven - especially since they're not going to get there, right? Since you are clearly the world's most devout christian, you would never choose to be gay, and surely no one in your family would, either, so why do you care? What business is it of yours?

I wasn't aware you asked me these questions earlier.

I never said homosexuality was a choice. Not sure where you got that. I also never claimed to be the "world's most devout Christian." Those are human standards that don't mean a thing. I do believe the Bible, though.

My reason for posting on this thread was to question a Christian minister who clearly is at odds with Scripture.

 

[jimmiej]

Well, hell, if that's the case then why does God *allow* murder, rape, genocide, infanticide, etc?

Sin. Read Genesis 3.

I'm always amazed at people who want to quote chapter and verse to suit their own needs but fail utterly to embrace the ONE message that comes shining through regardless--Love God and love *one another*. There are no qualifications. That issue is crystalline.

Did you know Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven? Matthew 25 is a prime example.

 

[TheBellhop]

You claim they have reason because you agree with them on this issue.

The Word of God is clear on homosexuality. Those of us who feel the Bible is THE Word of God also "have open eyes and a brain," and know how the Bible "came to be."

AN OPEN BRAIN?!?! If I'm not mistaken, that's the same as saying you're open minded, correct?

Thanks for the laugh!