I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[ncdisneyfan]

What stops me from following any old whim, by the way, is a sense of moral decency that doesn't come from any religion.

So, where does this sense of moral decency come from? B/c to be "moral", there has to be an "immoral" to compare it to. And if there's a "moral" and an "immoral", then there has to be a benchmark, of sorts, that decides what is, and isn't, "moral". What is that benchmark?

 

[discernment]

So, where does this sense of moral decency come from? B/c to be "moral", there has to be an "immoral" to compare it to. And if there's a "moral" and an "immoral", then there has to be a benchmark, of sorts, that decides what is, and isn't, "moral". What is that benchmark?

Therein lies the problem. Post-modernism has resulted in the rejection of any form of absolute truth and shifted to the do whatever is right for you relativism that is pervasive in our society today.

 

[VSL]

You know....as a cradle born Episcopalian, and a sitting member of my church's governing board, I have to say something most of you will find somewhat shocking....the Bible was written by mere mortals!! It is said that the words in the Bible are the word of God, that have been written down by man. Well, I have to say that some of it leaves me wondering.
. . .
I think we would be better served following the 10 Commandments in the long run.

ITA

People can quote scripture 'til the cows come home. However, I'm a Christian (of sorts), but I have my misgivings about the Bible (MAJOR misgivings) and any organised religion (although I'm interested in Quakerism) so quoting scripture at me is a complete waste of time.

I'm far more concerned with the 10C's and just treating and caring for others as I would like to be treated and loved.

I'm sure that would make me 'not a true Christian' in the eyes of many, but that's their issue, not mine.

OT:

see this happening in church's today. Where someone thinks "I'll be the Leader" (notice the Disney link there - Aristocats ) and so takes his own little group of followers off to believe in something that suits them. Heck, the protestant church was born this way!! (Henry VIII and his many wives).

I believe that Protestantism came about primarily because of Anne Boleyn (he needed to divorce Catherine of Aragon to marry Anne). Henry VIII even wrote a book, I believe, talking about the wonders of marriage and how divorce was such a bad thing (he was very Catholic - even up to the end in his own eyes) - ie, do as I say, not as I do!

 

[Laura]

So, where does this sense of moral decency come from? B/c to be "moral", there has to be an "immoral" to compare it to. And if there's a "moral" and an "immoral", then there has to be a benchmark, of sorts, that decides what is, and isn't, "moral". What is that benchmark?

Common sense--where does that come from? The very idea of "right" or "wrong"--when did that originate? Does there have to be a religion behind it?

 

[Laura]

Therein lies the problem. Post-modernism has resulted in the rejection of any form of absolute truth and shifted to the do whatever is right for you relativism that is pervasive in our society today.

What "absolute truth"? A Christian and a Buddhist will have very different ideas of what that is.

 

[cardaway]

What "absolute truth"? A Christian and a Buddhist will have very different ideas of what that is.

Only one matters. Haven't you been following along.

 

[Laura]

Only one matters. Haven't you been following along.

Oh, right! I forgot, this is America, and we're all Christians.

 

[discernment]

ITA

People can quote scripture 'til the cows come home. However, I'm a Christian (of sorts), but I have my misgivings about the Bible (MAJOR misgivings) and any organised religion (although I'm interested in Quakerism) so quoting scripture at me is a complete waste of time.

I'm far more concerned with the 10C's and just treating and caring for others as I would like to be treated and loved.

I'm sure that would make me 'not a true Christian' in the eyes of many, but that's their issue, not mine.

OT:

I believe that Protestantism came about primarily because of Anne Boleyn (he needed to divorce Catherine of Aragon to marry Anne). Henry VIII even wrote a book, I believe, talking about the wonders of marriage and how divorce was such a bad thing (he was very Catholic - even up to the end in his own eyes) - ie, do as I say, not as I do!

Yeah, that Martin Luther guy and the reformation didnt have anything to do with the creation of Prostestantism.

 

[discernment]

What "absolute truth"? A Christian and a Buddhist will have very different ideas of what that is.

People can have all kind of ideas what "absolute truth" is but it doesnt change the fact that absolute truth does exist and in the end it will all come down to whether you accept or reject it. There will be no middle ground of relativism in the end.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

I'll ask again, how do you know which parts to take literally and which parts to skim over? How can Christians use the Bible as a guide to living the kind of life God wants from us, if we not sure about it's authenticity? ETA: And, if we don't use the Bible (for the reasons stated by many of you), what's to keep us from just following any old whim?

If I can jump in here...I've heard that question asked many times and personally, I don't see how Christians have a right to ask it. Christianity puts all of the emphasis on the belief that only through belief in Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you get into Heaven, regardless of your actions here on Earth. Your religion is one where what you believe is more important than the kind of life you lead. Seeing that Jesus' death relieved the world of the burden of it's collective sin, all evil deeds and moral imperfections are forgiven and entrance to Heaven is guarenteed simply by following that one tenet. Where's the reason for Christians to live a good life or follow the rules, other than a belief that maybe it makes God happy?

 

[Laura]

People can have all kind of ideas what "absolute truth" is but it doesnt change the fact that absolute truth does exist and in the end it will all come down to whether you accept or reject it. There will be no middle ground of relativism in the end.

Right--my point was we don't know whose idea is the correct one.

 

[Laura]

If I can jump in here...I've heard that question asked many times and personally, I don't see how Christians have a right to ask it. Christianity puts all of the emphasis on the belief that only through belief in Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you get into Heaven, regardless of your actions here on Earth. Your religion is one where what you believe is more important than the kind of life you lead. Seeing that Jesus' death relieved the world of the burden of it's collective sin, all evil deeds and moral imperfections are forgiven and entrance to Heaven is guarenteed simply by following that one tenet. Where's the reason to live a good life or follow the rules, other than a belief that maybe it makes God happy?

Not all brands of Christianity do this. I was raised Catholic and taught that I had to be a good person too.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Not all brands of Christianity do this. I was raised Catholic and taught that I had to be a good person too.

So even though you have accepted Jesus as your savior and ask for forgivness, you can still be kept out of Heaven for being a jerk here on Earth?

 

[Bob Slydell]

So even though you have accepted Jesus as your savior and ask for forgivness, you can still be kept out of Heaven for being a jerk here on Earth?

God, I hope so If nothing else, it would prove that God has a sense of humor.

 

[Laura]

So even though you have accepted Jesus as your savior and ask for forgivness, you can still be kept out of Heaven for being a jerk here on Earth?

Yup. You can go to purgatory and be cleansed, people can help by praying you out of purgatory and you go to heaven, but you can be a jerk and go to hell too.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Yup. You can go to purgatory and be cleansed, people can pray you out and you go to heaven, but you can be a jerk and go to hell too.

Now that's the kind of ominicient slap down I was hoping to hear about!

 

[Laura]

Hehehe... here's the evangelical point of view debating Catholic canon on this point:
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a14.htm

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Common sense--where does that come from? The very idea of "right" or "wrong"--when did that originate? Does there have to be a religion behind it?

That's what I asked you. What is your benchmark? Clearly, you know there is a difference b/w right and wrong, b/c you make reference to doing right. Yet you also say:

What stops me from following any old whim, by the way, is a sense of moral decency that doesn't come from any religion.

So I ask again, your sense of "moral decency", if it doesn't come from religion (as you say), where does it come from?

 

[Laura]

That's what I asked you. What is your benchmark? Clearly, you know there is a difference b/w right and wrong, b/c you make reference to doing right. Yet you also say:

So I ask again, your sense of "moral decency", if it doesn't come from religion (as you say), where does it come from?

I did answer, but I didn't make it clear. They all come from the same place. Can't people have a sense of right and wrong without being religious?

 

[ncdisneyfan]

Christianity puts all of the emphasis on the belief that only through belief in Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you get into Heaven, regardless of your actions here on Earth. Your religion is one where what you believe is more important than the kind of life you lead.

I would generally agree with that.

Seeing that Jesus' death relieved the world of the burden of it's collective sin, all evil deeds and moral imperfections are forgiven and entrance to Heaven is guarenteed simply by following that one tenet. Where's the reason for Christians to live a good life or follow the rules, other than a belief that maybe it makes God happy?

Here's where we might diverge somewhat. Jesus' death paid the penalty for our collective sins, meaning that we no longer have to suffer the ultimate penalty of eternal death, since Christ paid that debt for us. All of our "evil deeds and moral imperfections", if you will, are not AUTOMATICALLY forgiven; we must still ask forgiveness for our sins, after realizing that we are all sinful by nature. Additionally, though we are not "saved" by WHAT we do, i.e. saved by works (which is quite clear in Scripture, see Eph. 2: 8-9 for example), our works are a DEMONSTRATION of our saving faith (this it what James alludes to in James 2). It is not the ACT of the works that saves us, i.e. "being nice" doesn't gain us entrance to Heaven, but rather "being nice", for example, is the result of our saving faith, as we are definitely called to love the Lord our God first and love our neighbors as ourselves second.

So for me, I would say that's not the "reason" for Christians to live a good life, but Christians who have a saving faith in Jesus Christ demonstrate that faith THROUGH their works.