I miss the Maelstrom ride so much.

[eXo]

Lol, I said it was a decade away in my own post as well....

 

[rteetz]

Lol, I said it was a decade away in my own post as well....

But even then who knows because new management will be in place. Iger will be gone Staggs the likely CEO, I don't see Kalogridis lasting another 10 years maybe 5.

 

[skier_pete]

I agree they'll line up Epcot after DHS - but obviously this is 5-10 years down the road.

Even so, a major overhaul will NOT change the format of World Showcase. There's too much established there for them to really devote a lot of effort. Any major overhaul will focus on Future World - as there is so much dead or dying space in that park.

 

[Andrew015]

Any major overhaul will focus on Future World - as there is so much dead or dying space in that park.

You've hit the nail on the head of the crux of my frustration with what's currently happening in EPCOT. Maelstrom - a popular, solid attraction is being leveled in favor of Arendelle. It's undergoing major, fundamental change to capitalize (*cough* 3 years late *cough*) on the Frozen craze. You lose one attraction but gain another (no net gain). Why is this being done? To capitalize on Frozen's popularity with as little investment as possible (remember, we're getting the same boat ride re-themed on a shoe-string budget) and to boost EPCOT attendance levels. I think we can all agree here, correct?

Why is EPCOT's attendance levels down in the first place? It's certainly not because of any shortcomings in Norway or the rest of WS for that matter. Hell, World Showcase has been the only thing keeping EPCOT afloat. Attendance is down because of the rot and decay that's been happening in Future World for more than a decade. Innoventions is a shell, half of which is being closed indefinitely (could this be more character meet & greet space? Yippee...), Wonders of Life pavilion has been empty for what - 15 years? Imagination, a popular classic attraction, was re-themed into the ground. Capt. EO was dead, resurrected, and now dying again (no signs of poor leadership here...). The most investment Future World has seen in the past five years has been converting Fountain View into a Starbucks.

Maybe I get why some of you are ecstatic for Frozen. We are so desperate for something, anything "good" to come EPCOT's way that we'll take anything that we can get. I just see it as more of the same, misguided strategy. Frozen will be a hit wherever you put it.... for the next 5 years. A total commitment from Burbank to revitalize Future World would be a hit for decades to come, but that isn't nearly as friendly to the short-term balance sheet, which is all that they're concerned with at the present. It's a shame that Norway is getting the axe at the expense of this short-sighted management philosophy.

 

[skier_pete]

Andrew015 - First off - I am not sure you should say that they are using a shoe-string budget. The rumor is $100-200 million, which for a single ride refurb is not chump change.

And while I will agree with your treatment of Epcot / Future World, I get why a major overhaul isn't happening. For right now they have a pretty massive project ($500+ Million) going on to expand Animal Kingdom, and a second massive project ($1+ billion) at DHS in the wings. Even if we ignored the fact of spending that much money all at once, do you think it would be good for business to do a major overhaul on THREE parks at once? Disney would get the reputation as "Construction Kingdom" and kill their business for several years. Waiting on Epcot makes sense IF and ONLY IF they are really intending to do these big spends elsewhere. Unfortunately, this makes Frozen/Maelstrom and to a lesser degree the Soarin' 3rd theater the temporary fixes of Epcot.

And you mistaken my criticism of people for enthusiasm for the Frozen ride. I would have much rather seen them keep a Norway theme ride while maybe making it narrated by the Frozen characters (similar to Mexico) because I tend to think in the long-term this will seem like a stupid place to put this ride. However, I get why they are doing it, it makes a lot of sense on many levels. (Financially and even thematically though many do not agree.) However, my DD is 11 and already thinks Frozen is "stupid" so I doubt we are going to be devoting a lot of our park time here. However, if it helps draw some percentage of the crowds away from MK, then I think it would be a success in my book.

 

[rteetz]

Andrew015 - First off - I am not sure you should say that they are using a shoe-string budget. The rumor is $100-200 million, which for a single ride refurb is not chump change.

And while I will agree with your treatment of Epcot / Future World, I get why a major overhaul isn't happening. For right now they have a pretty massive project ($500+ Million) going on to expand Animal Kingdom, and a second massive project ($1+ billion) at DHS in the wings. Even if we ignored the fact of spending that much money all at once, do you think it would be good for business to do a major overhaul on THREE parks at once? Disney would get the reputation as "Construction Kingdom" and kill their business for several years. Waiting on Epcot makes sense IF and ONLY IF they are really intending to do these big spends elsewhere. Unfortunately, this makes Frozen/Maelstrom and to a lesser degree the Soarin' 3rd theater the temporary fixes of Epcot.

And you mistaken my criticism of people for enthusiasm for the Frozen ride. I would have much rather seen them keep a Norway theme ride while maybe making it narrated by the Frozen characters (similar to Mexico) because I tend to think in the long-term this will seem like a stupid place to put this ride. However, I get why they are doing it, it makes a lot of sense on many levels. (Financially and even thematically though many do not agree.) However, my DD is 11 and already thinks Frozen is "stupid" so I doubt we are going to be devoting a lot of our park time here. However, if it helps draw some percentage of the crowds away from MK, then I think it would be a success in my book.

200? I've heard 75-100 million.

 

[Andrew015]

Andrew015 - First off - I am not sure you should say that they are using a shoe-string budget. The rumor is $100-200 million, which for a single ride refurb is not chump change..

I'm not sure where the $100-$200M figure is coming from. The budget figures I recall hearing were far below $100M, which truly is "chump change" in the grand scheme of a theme park attraction with so many expectations riding on it.

And while I will agree with your treatment of Epcot / Future World, I get why a major overhaul isn't happening. For right now they have a pretty massive project ($500+ Million) going on to expand Animal Kingdom, and a second massive project ($1+ billion) at DHS in the wings. Even if we ignored the fact of spending that much money all at once, do you think it would be good for business to do a major overhaul on THREE parks at once? Disney would get the reputation as "Construction Kingdom" and kill their business for several years. Waiting on Epcot makes sense IF and ONLY IF they are really intending to do these big spends elsewhere. Unfortunately, this makes Frozen/Maelstrom and to a lesser degree the Soarin' 3rd theater the temporary fixes of Epcot.

The argument of why they're not doing anything with Future World because there is "so much else going on right now" doesn't hold water. There has been ZERO investment anywhere in EPCOT for well over a decade. None, zilch. Yet profits (overall) have never been higher. It's not a "lack of funds" that's holding them back. Rather, there has been no need in management's eyes to spend a cent, as we/us consumers have blindly rewarded them regardless. Avatar (in all likelihood) is being funded partly by Cameron, thus minimizing the risk / financial responsibility to Disney. Similar "arrangements" are being made with the mall-style "chains" coming to Disney Springs to help offset the initial investment costs. While something ought to be coming to HS - no one knows what, when or how much is going to be spent. Again, past performance tells you that we're going to be 5-7 years away from actually stepping foot onto "Jedi ground", and also, that whatever budget is "announced" in the beginning stages will most likely be scaled back as the project moves along. I'm hoping and praying that they don't mess up the chance to really hit a homerun with Star Wars, but based on past performance elsewhere around property, can we really be that confident? By the time the HS addition is functional, EPCOT will have gone 20+ years without so much as a +1 attraction. This is inexcusable no matter how you look at it.

This all ties back to the underlying theme of spending as little as possible to extract short-term gains, as this has been the rally cry for many, many years running. Everywhere you look around property, there is proof of that and little if any evidence to the contrary.

And you mistaken my criticism of people for enthusiasm for the Frozen ride. I would have much rather seen them keep a Norway theme ride while maybe making it narrated by the Frozen characters (similar to Mexico) because I tend to think in the long-term this will seem like a stupid place to put this ride. However, I get why they are doing it, it makes a lot of sense on many levels. (Financially and even thematically though many do not agree.) However, my DD is 11 and already thinks Frozen is "stupid" so I doubt we are going to be devoting a lot of our park time here. However, if it helps draw some percentage of the crowds away from MK, then I think it would be a success in my book.

Again, 100% short-sighted. You readily admit that your 11-year old daughter is already "sick of Frozen". This calls into question the "staying power" of the ride, and also their timing being 3 years late to the dance. You know what would help draw people away from MK for years to come with 100% certainty? A real, committed effort to revitalize Future World.

 

[xipetotec]

I liked it too but really, how many people actually did the ride and stayed for the movie. Yah, not that many. I will miss the feel of it and the movie.

Well we *always* did the ride... ahem... yeah... just the ride... But did always do it and loved it. We were not the first to pass this vay.... and we weren't the last...

 

[Planogirl]

200? I've heard 75-100 million.

Does that include the new building for the meet and greet?

 

[rteetz]

Does that include the new building for the meet and greet?

I don't believe so but still 75-100 million for an attraction is not that much. The little mermaid in NFL cost between 150-200 million. I wouldn't expect the meet and greet building would cost that much anyways. It's just a building and a new women's restroom.

 

[Planogirl]

I don't believe so but still 75-100 million for an attraction is not that much. The little mermaid in NFL cost between 150-200 million. I wouldn't expect the meet and greet building would cost that much anyways. It's just a building and a new women's restroom.

They could theme it all real well. Maybe the restrooms could include Elsa warbling away much like Moaning Myrtle over at Universal.

 

[Jing]

This is the problem I have with people complaining about this - people act like this is the start of a slippery slope. But really, it's already the bottom.

When Epcot was opened, it was deemed a no character zone - except for lonely figment.

The change started long ago with the Lion King teaching us an environmental message in "The Land".
By now, they have Princesses greeting in at LEAST 6 different Pavillions.
Nemo Characters throughout "The Seas".
Remy the Rat doing the rounds in a French restaurant.
Mexican Donald greeting outside the Mexico Pavillion.
A character greet with the Fab 5 in the center of the park.
Kim Possible then Agent P saving the countries from evil.
And guess what, a bunch of Princesses that have ZERO to do with Norway holding court in the Norwegian restaurant.

Here's the rub.

Everything I've listed above is FANTASTICALLY POPULAR! So, folks, you can sit and bemoan "the downfall of Epcot" as it was conceived, but let's face it, as soon as they put that Anna and Elsa meet and greet into Norway that had SIX HOUR waits, the re-do of the ride at Norway was inevitable. I understand the concern that Norway becomes a fictional Arendale...but I don't think Disney does that. I think they still call in Norway, and talk about the Arendale of the ride as being "Norway Inspired".

So, continue to bemoan the change if you wish, but just admit that it actually happened many many years ago and is long past stopping.

I about had a coronary event when I took a teenage-early 20s hiatus from WDW and saw the Living Seas was all Nemo (which I finally saw the movie last month), plus the Figment/Dreamfinder revamp, WOL decay, Kitchen Cabaret closure, and of course, Horizons. So, I'm numb. Go ahead, make a ride/experience in every pavillion based on Disney characters loosely based on historic fairy tales loosly based in real countries. Just leave the booze.

 

[Andrew015]

They could theme it all real well. Maybe the restrooms could include Elsa warbling away much like Moaning Myrtle over at Universal.

Just keep piping in the "Let it Go" music into the bathroom...

 

[Andrew015]

I about had a coronary event when I took a teenage-early 20s hiatus from WDW and saw the Living Seas was all Nemo (which I finally saw last month), plus the Figment/Dreamfinder revamp, WOL decay, Kitchen Cabaret closure, and of course, Horizons. So, I'm numb. Go ahead, make a ride/experience in every pavillion based on Disney characters loosely based on historic fairy tales loosly based in real countries. Just leave the booze.

Lol! This truly made my night. Thank you for posting. This is without a doubt the best response in this entire post. Cheers to you.

 

[skier_pete]

I about had a coronary event when I took a teenage-early 20s hiatus from WDW and saw the Living Seas was all Nemo (which I finally saw last month), plus the Figment/Dreamfinder revamp, WOL decay, Kitchen Cabaret closure, and of course, Horizons. So, I'm numb. Go ahead, make a ride/experience in every pavillion based on Disney characters loosely based on historic fairy tales loosly based in real countries. Just leave the booze.

Kitchen Kaberet? - you've been gone a while huh? That closed 20+ years ago. Are you thinking of Food Rocks, which was basically the same thing, and closed in 2004?

I would agree that Future World is such a shambles it is really sad. (Though I personally have a great fondness for the Nemo overlay of the Living Seas, as my daughters love for animals can be a lot credited to that pavillion.) Regardless of my semi-defending Disney for what's going on in Epcot, I think it's a complete shame the state of about 60 % of that theme park.

However, I have less of a problem with the Frozen ride than most. I personally have a bigger complaint about them adding a third theater to Soarin'. My thought there is maybe they'd be better off spending the money on actually adding/revamping all these falling apart attractions then just adding capacity to one of the few good ones.

 

[Andrew015]

I personally have a bigger complaint about them adding a third theater to Soarin'. My thought there is maybe they'd be better off spending the money on actually adding/revamping all these falling apart attractions then just adding capacity to one of the few good ones.

We can definitely agree here. Additional capacity would not be needed if there were more than two legitimate rides in FW to choose from.

 

[skier_pete]

We can definitely agree here. Additional capacity would not be needed if there were more than two legitimate rides in FW to choose from.

I would argue six (SSE, M:S, TT, Soarin', LwtL and The Seas). I am dismissing Imagination because it is so bad and so short. Even if you ride it, you devote < 10 minutes to it. But of those six, only two really are have high re-rideability.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I agree they'll line up Epcot after DHS - but obviously this is 5-10 years down the road.

I think you're giving this collection of piggy banks too much credit, Pete...

And definitely on the timeframe...

Remember how long ago we were told that Carsland was coming?
And then it was "Pixar place"/star wars land?
And then when they closed down 4 attractions/areas/buildings...they HAD to be ready to announce a huge gut?

?
Time is stretching out on the third/recent one on that list...

Right...third track on the toy story ride that will be lucky to beat the 4th toy story movie out...

I dunno, Pete...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I would argue six (SSE, M:S, TT, Soarin', LwtL and The Seas). I am dismissing Imagination because it is so bad and so short. Even if you ride it, you devote < 10 minutes to it. But of those six, only two really are have high re-rideability.

They were rocking 60 minute waits on spaceship and living with the land a couple of weeks ago...

And I wouldn't classify the parks as "packed"...busy, not packed.

There's an undeniable problem in the swamp.

You simply cannot sit on your hands running parks for the large periods of time that they have...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

200? I've heard 75-100 million.

Not to kick the nest...but I'm gonna...

Do any of us believe their budget numbers?

First - it's usually "speculated" - not confirmed...

And we've seen them underestimate during overages and vastly exaggerating during slashes...

They are not required to tell us the truth...they simply have to balance the books and certify them weeks/months/years later. That is not a stockholder problem/issue.

They tell us what they feel will extract maximum money from our pockets...that's a fact. (Yeah...I'll stand on that)

In the case of "new fantasyland"...that was a vast exaggeration - according to reports that they have no duty to validate.