I just sent the asst. principal an EMail at 3:30AM! What have I done?(long)

[Rock'n Robin]

No, it's not nasty, but I've had something bugging me and I couldn't handle it anymore. At my DD#1's school they only allow 75 kids into Pre-Algebra (honors math) in grade 7, in a class of 300-350. Kelly didn't make the cut. This is the latest in 4 years of "she's smart, but standards are higher here" incidents with her, starting with her being state identified as gifted, but not getting services in our district because the standards are set higher than the state. I'm sick of hearing THAT speech!
They base this mostly on an algebra aptitude test and she scored in the 70s--cutoff was 86. Of course her counselor admitted to me that she is on the weakest of the 3 6th grade "teams". These teams have given out such different amounts of homework this year that the teachers have to be shuffled around next year to even it out!
She has never had less than a B and got a 95% on her Iowa math. I talked to her counselor, but he called me back on my cell when I was driving and half of my arguments were forgotten. So I put them all in an EMail for the asst. principal, who I like. My main argument is, if she wants to be challenged, isn't the time NOW when it won't have a negative effect on her GPA as it would in HS? This takes her out of honors math for good! She'll be a year behind after 7th grade and never able to move UP to honors math. I really feel ANY student who wants to try it should be able to, but I just focused on Kelly. I want her challenged because she does better that way. I don't feel she belongs in math 7 with "everyone else" who didn't make that cut. I know I'm fighting the system here, but sometimes it works when parents make noise. So I decided to make noise over the counselor's head, and also CC'd it to the superintendent. Look I have two more kids in the pipeline, I want them to know I'm not a pushover. I even mentioned that we can reexamine her progress at the end of first quarter and put her in math 7 if it is needed; if the test is right and she can't handle it, I'll be the first to admit it. But why take a kid who wants to excel and deny her that chance?
Honestly, sometimes I feel like we should move to a "less challenging" suburb where she would be more highly valued. What good is living in the best school district if your child isn't given the chance to be among the best? Graduating between 75 and 150 out of 350 won't get her any scholarship money!
Thanks for the vent
Robin M.

 

[shortbun]

I totally agree with you! If she wants to try it-she should be
allowed. In Columbus, they try to identify children in many ways
and catch those who fall through the "test score" net. I've
talked to the head of G&T here many times about it. They really
try hard not to miss any one on the borderline. This middle school "team" thing is troubling to me. We haven't faced it yet
but I'm aware of other children getting left behind due to their
team placement. Advocate for your child, some children leave the
G&T program at this age because it's too stressful - perhaps they
will have a spot for your DD if you become the squeaky wheel.
Get her switched to another "team" if you can too. There is no
guarantee the teacher adjustment will happen. As far as the
state guidelines versus your district's guidelines-is that a way of
saying "we don't have the money or the resources to help the
kids the state says we should."? I'd pitch a fit over that.

 

[pw2pp]

I agree that she should be allowed to "try it".

When my daughter started 7th grade, she switched schools (from a crowded public school to a small private school).
She was started in the "Regular" 7th grade Math (NOT Pre-Algebra).
At the end of 7th grade, since she had gotten straight A's in all of her classes (including Math), her Math teacher recommended that she SKIP Pre-Algebra and go straight to Algebra in 8th grade.

We (and our DD) were a little worried about it, but we went ahead and did it. We got a tutor for Sarah (a high-school student) for the first few months and everything went fine.

We are so glad that we made this move because Sarah has been able to move along as far as possible in Math (she is now finishing 10th grade).

By the time she is a Senior, she will be able to take Advanced Placement Calculus and be able to take the AP exam for College Credit.

So I would say, get her into Pre-Algebra if you can, and if you can't MAYBE she will be able to move straight to Algebra in 8th grade? Good luck with everything (and keep us posted too).

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I know what you mean. Now my kids are NOT gifted by any means. However they are in the "above average" category. So if you were to put my older dd in a higher math she would probably keep up and do it. She only does what is required.

She wants to be a vet and she has blown her chance for advanced math for high school. Of course they count those classes on your GPA and naturally that decides your fate in the top 10% of your graduating year.

She is in honors science so we do have some hope of raising the GPA. I am not going to sweat it.

Good Luck to you!

 

[my3kids]

I hope even if she doesn't take pre algebra until 8th grade, she could still be in honors courses in high school. Would they really keep her out of Honors Geometry as a sophomore if she excelled in Algebra her freshman year?

Another idea if the system won't budge and you want her in Algebra as an 8th gader....by chance is she in the CTY program through Johns Hopkins, Duke, etc.? If she qualifies for CTY, with either a 98% or above in a nationally normed test, she could take her SAT's now. If she scores above a certain level, she can take any math as an honors course through Johns Hopkins. (CTY students are divided among the country acording to what state you live in. A child qualifies for a specific program, which may or may not be the closest university to your home) These courses are taught at your own home, using IBM White Board(?) and self study with a tutor. Just an idea.

 

[Wonderlandmom]

Here they take a test in 6th grade to determine which few will take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Next lower group of scores gets prealgebra in 7th grade, then there is regular math. 7th graders also take the test at the end of the year for algebra 1 in 8th grade (if not in in already) Algebra 1 in middle school here DOES count toward HS GPA, so parents have to give consent for 7th and 8th graders to take Algebra 1. They are pretty strict with the scores here (test and FCAT scores are used) in determining this.
Good luck! I hope they listen to your instinct.

 

[kasar]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if she scored in the 70's for the class and the cut-off is 86 they should have placed her where they did. There has to be some cut off that's fair to everyone. Now I'm not saying it's right - in a class of 300-350 they really should open this class up for more than 75 students - maybe even offering a different class for the next 75 or so students who may have missed the cut-off but are good students and want to learn the material.

You're right to push for this, if she gets behind now she may not be able to get ahead when high school rolls around. I think you're doing the right thing in letting the school know your feelings. I wish you luck.

 

[gymnasticsmom68]

I'm curious about this

I don't feel she belongs in math 7 with "everyone else" who didn't make that cut.

I could see your point if she was at least close to making the cut, but she wasn't even close. The way you say 'everyone else' would lead us to believe that you somehow think your daughter deserves to be there. What about the kids who scored 85? Whether you agree or not, there has to be a stopping point for who is allowed in.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by kasar
Please don't take this the wrong way, but if she scored in the 70's for the class and the cut-off is 86 they should have placed her where they did. There has to be some cut off that's fair to everyone. Now I'm not saying it's right - in a class of 300-350 they really should open this class up for more than 75 students - maybe even offering a different class for the next 75 or so students who may have missed the cut-off but are good students and want to learn the material.

ITA with this. They have to set some sort of cutoff and your DD didn't make the cut. It happens. Have her do some extra work at home or something if you feel she needs to learn pre-algebra this upcoming year.

 

[Bumbles]

I totally agree with Kasar..there have to be limits, and unfortunately, your daughter didn't make the cut.

And as far as this statement goes:

I really feel ANY student who wants to try it should be able to,

Not in honors....believe me, if your daughter was in honors and there were students in there who didn't belong and were forcing the teacher to focus all of his or her energy on those who couldn't make the cut, you'd be furious that the time was being taken away from the students who could.


And quite frankly, this has to be one of the snottier things I"ve read on this board, and believe me, I know snotty:

I don't feel she belongs in math 7 with "everyone else" who didn't make that cut.

 

[ripleysmom]

I agree with kasar. If her score had been an 84 or 85 I could see why you might feel that way. In the 70s is a pretty big discrepancy no matter who her teacher is.

Also in our district the Honors courses require the student to maintain a 90 average or better. If they don't then they are removed from the Honors program.

 

[GoofItUp]

Graduating between 75 and 150 out of 350 won't get her any scholarship money!

Just because your DD is not with the top 75 math students doesn't mean she will graduate 'behind' them. My younger brother (just finished his sophomore year) is in GT programs. However, he is getting out of them for next year because the teacher grades extremely hard and his rank in the class is dropping behind other students that are not in GT because they are graded easier. If your DD does well in the classes she's in (whether they challenge her or not) she could still graduate in the top of her class, I would think. Unless there are different rules at your school.

Also, I have to agree that your DD was not close to the cut off line. If she had scored an 84 or 85, I could see your side of things a little easier. Couldn't you maybe discuss testing her at the end of the year to see if she could move forward at that time? If she's breezing through the regular math class, perhaps you could get a tutor to teach her some of the Pre-Algebra things so she could move up next year.

I hope it all works out well for you and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - I hope your DD learns as much as she can and does well in school!

 

[Bojangles]

Originally posted by Bumbles
I
Not in honors....believe me, if your daughter was in honors and there were students in there who didn't belong and were forcing the teacher to focus all of his or her energy on those who couldn't make the cut, you'd be furious that the time was being taken away from the students who could.

I agree. Schools have limited resources and honors programs can't afford to take everyone who "wants to try". If you want her to learn pre-algebra, get her a tutor.

I would guard against forcing your child into classes that may be too difficult for her just because you want her to get scholorship money in the future. Moving to another district that has lower standards just so your daughter will get into these classes doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[jwsqrdplus2]

When I first started reading this, I thought I was going to get flamed when I entered my opinion, but I see a few others with the same thoughts.

There are cut-off scores for a reason. Despite how you DD performs in class, she did not make the cut (by a LOT, I might add) for the class. Letting the school know how you feel is fine, but if they come back and say "I'm sorry, but she is not going to be put in the class," you will have to accept that. My mom teaches HS history, honors and AP. Every year she has students in her class that do not belong because some parent has pushed to have his/her "brilliant" child in the honors tract.

Here is another perspective: when I was in 7th grade, the 7th grade teachers recommend students for the honors tract starting in 8th grade. The way the program was structured in my district at the time, you got into honors in 8th grade or not at all. I was recommended for honors in every subject except English. I had a strong B+/A- average and had scored in the 92nd percentile on the standardized test. The teacher had determined that I was not ready for honors English. My mom agreed! The school principal overruled the teacher and talked my mom into putting me in the honors English program. It was a mistake. I struggled horribly that year. I made mostly Bs, but I was working harder in that class than all others combined to maintain that average. By the time I got to high school, things did eventually level out, but I always had to work harder in English than any other subject.

As for scholarship money, I know plenty of people who did not graduate in the top 75 of their class who got scholarship money.


This is OT, but I feel I needed to comment on it also.

My younger brother (just finished his sophomore year) is in GT programs. However, he is getting out of them for next year because the teacher grades extremely hard and his rank in the class is dropping behind other students that are not in GT because they are graded easier.

I work with college admissions, and at our college a student who gets a B in an honors/AP class will be weighted more heavily that one who gets an A in a regular class. While class rank is a consideration, your younger brother could in fact be hurting his chances for admission by dropping those classes.

 

[HappyMommy2]

Like others have said, they have to make the cutoff somehwere, and since your DD didn't make the cutoff, it looks like they did what they had to do in leaving her out.

However, I have a problem with the policy that once a child misses the cut, he or she can never move up to honors. That seems very unfair to kids who work hard and excel in "regular" math later on--it seems that if they appear to be ready for honors at some later point they should be able to try it.

I can certainly understand your frustration!

 

[bballmom56]

Originally posted by kasar
if she scored in the 70's for the class and the cut-off is 86 they should have placed her where they did.

I agree. Our DD is very bright (graduated as salutatorian of her middle school class), but the biggest mistake we made was letting her take Algebra I in 8th grade and then Honors Geometry as a freshman. She was at the low end of passing to take the Algebra I class, so she took it. She struggled, got her first "C" for a marking period and barely made the passing grade of 75 to go on to Honors Geo. We all thought it was because she really did not like the Algebra teacher and could handle the Hon. Geo. Well, it didn't matter what the reason was for her low performance in Alg. I, she didn't get enough of the content of the course. She had a miserable freshman year because of the Hon. Geo. It affected everything else, too. Freshman year is hard enough by itself! She got through Hon. Geo. - D on midterm, F on final, but passed the course with a C. We knew she was lacking Algebra I skills, so enrolled her in a summer school for Alg. I. She aced that, we put her back on the regular academic track in math, and she had no future math troubles. She went on to take Honors courses in English, History, Bio. and Chem., did AP Stat and AP Bio., graduated top 10% in her class and got a 1/2 scholarship to the college of her choice.

But we never should have let her do the Honors Geometry even though she did actually pass the Algebra I course. She only squeaked by. From pre-Algebra on, all the math courses seem to build on each other. If you miss the concepts in the earlier courses, you will struggle later. Best thing we did was enroll her in the summer Alg. I class. It cleared up a lot for her.

So please don't think just because she is in the "regular" math that she won't have a decent class rank or won't get a scholarship. I've learned from experience!

 

[Briar Rose 7457]

pushing her into the honors class may not be the best thing.

personal experience:


in my junior high the honors program began in 8th grade. 8 grade honors students took 9th grade math, 9th grade honors students took 10th grade math, etc.

I had a 95 average in 7th grade math. in 8th grade I took the honors math. the "mathletes" set the pace and the rest of us had to struggle to keep up. I had an 85 average. in 9th grade I had to have a math tutor to get through geometry. I did ok in trigonometry, but that's because I was in a class that was sort of a hydrib class -- honors level students but not "mathletes". I went back to an honors class for precalculus and failed miserably, and had to drop the class.


putting her in the honors class may result in her not being able to keep up, in having a miserable experience with math and losing interest.

 

[GoofItUp]

I work with college admissions, and at our college a student who gets a B in an honors/AP class will be weighted more heavily that one who gets an A in a regular class. While class rank is a consideration, your younger brother could in fact be hurting his chances for admission by dropping those classes.

In Texas the top 10% in a class are automatically accepted to any state school regardless of what classes they took or anything else. (I'll reserve my comments on THAT law!) So, if my brother takes remedial basketweaving and that pushes him above someone in a GT class, then he is automatically accepted to the school he wants. He will still be taking other Honors courses (not GT - they're different in his school), but he will be taking 'regular' History and English courses.

 

[Rock'n Robin]

Thanks for all the replies. I appreciate the fact that there are cutoff points--after all I teach senior honors English. However, I really feel she's been cheated the past two years by having a bad teacher for 5th grade and the least qualified math teacher in 6th grade. She got such high math scores in grade 3 and 4 (honors on the state proficiency), what happened? I feel that if she had different teachers she'd be right up there in the top 75. I don't intend to keep her there if she struggles, but now is the time to try when it won't affect her GPA. I made it clear to the asst. principal that we would evaluate her progess at the end of the first quarter, and if needed put her back into math 7.
There isn't a point to teaching her pre-algebra myself--if she gets stuck in the regular math track, she'll get pre-algebra in grade 8.
If she doesn't get in, we'll just focus on building up her English, writing and history skills to make sure she gets into those honors courses. It will also give her more leeway to not be stressed if she tries out for volleyball or cheerleading(still deciding).
Again, I also don't want them to feel they can make these decisions affecting my child without knowing my opinion! As a teacher I know the parents that are known get a little more consideration than the ones who sit back and let the school make the decisions. It may not go my way, and that's fine, but I want them to know that I know the way the system really works.
I'm sorry if I offended by saying I didn't want her in the class with everyone else. But my experience shows me that smart kids in such a class get left behind. My "general " English classes have everyone from bright kids who are too lazy to take honors to kids who have IQs of 70-80. There is no time to enrich those smarter kids. I want her to stay challenged, not lay back and coast while the teacher tries to teach division to kids who should have learned it 3 years ago.
Robin M.

 

[cati]

xx