HUGE Star Wars news

[middlechild]

The impact of VIII on any following films cannot be underestimated. Once the force is no longer special, and VIII showed us it is not, then the franchise sinks to a low common denominator. Not special enough to support Solo, Fett, or any other.

 

[jknezek]

The impact of VIII on any following films cannot be underestimated. Once the force is no longer special, and VIII showed us it is not, then the franchise sinks to a low common denominator. Not special enough to support Solo, Fett, or any other.

I'm not sure I understand this theory. VIII didn't show this. The prequels laid out that The Force does not have to run in families or that Jedi primarily come from Jedi families. The no attachments, Jedi are monks and nuns story line that came up in the prequels and was fleshed out in The Clone Wars put paid to The Force predominantly running in only "special" families. You can't have hereditary Force powers being predominant if you don't allow Jedi to procreate.

Clone Wars does an entire story arc about the Jedi tracking youngsters who are showing Force promise. None of them were relatives of current Jedi. The Force is essentially a genetic abnormality. While there is a lot of now Legends material about Jedi Lords, canon since the prequels has been pretty specific that Force ability not only can, but must, spontaneously appear throughout the beings in the galaxy.

Now if you want to tag the stupidity that Rey somehow can "absorb" massive amounts of Force knowledge by Vulcan mind-melding accidentally with a two-bit bad guy who clearly doesn't know what he's doing if he's stupid enough to let that happen, I'm all on board. Especially if you want to mock the ridiculous plot hole that not only can she randomly absorb it, but that absorption of knowledge leads to immediate Mary Sue practical ability, I'm not just on board but leading the train. But we have to lay that at the feet of Episode VII, not VIII.

 

[BrianL]

I'm not sure I understand this theory. VIII didn't show this. The prequels laid out that The Force does not have to run in families or that Jedi primarily come from Jedi families. The no attachments, Jedi are monks and nuns story line that came up in the prequels and was fleshed out in The Clone Wars put paid to The Force predominantly running in only "special" families. You can't have hereditary Force powers being predominant if you don't allow Jedi to procreate.

Clone Wars does an entire story arc about the Jedi tracking youngsters who are showing Force promise. None of them were relatives of current Jedi. The Force is essentially a genetic abnormality. While there is a lot of now Legends material about Jedi Lords, canon since the prequels has been pretty specific that Force ability not only can, but must, spontaneously appear throughout the beings in the galaxy.

Now if you want to tag the stupidity that Rey somehow can "absorb" massive amounts of Force knowledge by Vulcan mind-melding accidentally with a two-bit bad guy who clearly doesn't know what he's doing if he's stupid enough to let that happen, I'm all on board. Especially if you want to mock the ridiculous plot hole that not only can she randomly absorb it, but that absorption of knowledge leads to immediate Mary Sue practical ability, I'm not just on board but leading the train. But we have to lay that at the feet of Episode VII, not VIII.

Yes, I don't know what the big fuss about Rey having to be in some lineage to have the Force. The prequels showed that it is pervasive and can crop up seemingly randomly. Yes, if one of your parents was strong with the force then you likely will be as well, but it can still manifest in others. Many, many Force sensitive beings aren't even Jedi or Sith or anybody. They're just regular people who may not even really know about all of that. The Force is actually present in ALL life forms.

The Rey stuff doesn't really bother me. She's no more capable than Luke in New Hope who can go fly an X-Wing for the first time with a bunch of professional fighter pilots and be one of three people coming back alive after blowing up the Death Star. She's no more perfect than 10 year old Anakin Skywalker winning Pod Races and taking out a Droid Control Ship in a fighter he had no familiarity with. Rey follows that same trope, and it's one that just doesn't bother me.

 

[jknezek]

Yes, I don't know what the big fuss about Rey having to be in some lineage to have the Force. The prequels showed that it is pervasive and can crop up seemingly randomly. Yes, if one of your parents was strong with the force then you likely will be as well, but it can still manifest in others. Many, many Force sensitive beings aren't even Jedi or Sith or anybody. They're just regular people who may not even really know about all of that. The Force is actually present in ALL life forms.

The Rey stuff doesn't really bother me. She's no more capable than Luke in New Hope who can go fly an X-Wing for the first time with a bunch of professional fighter pilots and be one of three people coming back alive after blowing up the Death Star. She's no more perfect than 10 year old Anakin Skywalker winning Pod Races and taking out a Droid Control Ship in a fighter he had no familiarity with. Rey follows that same trope, and it's one that just doesn't bother me.

I would point out that these aren't really Force powers. The ability to pilot a fighter isn't a Force issue. Annakin's reflexes, subconsciously enhanced by The Force, are pointed to in the the pod race, but not actually a developed Force ability. Now you could point to Luke's final shot on the Death Star as being a Force ability, but he is being coached, sort of, by Obi-wan at the time through his Force spirit and had some very small practical training on reaching out to The Force on the Falcon.

Rey has none of this, and she picks up on very specific Force abilities. The ability to influence minds with the Force isn't like piloting a fighter. Lots of non-Force sensitives can pilot a fighter or freighter. She uses the Force in a very specific way that canon tells us takes years of Jedi training to master. She Mary Sue'd it in a moment. Flying a fighter or the Falcon I don't have a problem with. Even fighting with a lightsaber, which Clone Wars tells us is not specific to the Jedi in the Darksaber arc, is not necessarily Jedi specific. Though fighting well with a lightsaber, having Force precognition needed to fight another Jedi or Sith, is something built up over years of training.

Anyway, plot holes abound in all the Episodes. I find VIII to have egregious ones. But not the one that the PP had up above.

 

[BrianL]

I would point out that these aren't really Force powers. The ability to pilot a fighter isn't a Force issue. Annakin's reflexes, subconsciously enhanced by The Force, are pointed to in the the pod race, but not actually a developed Force ability. Now you could point to Luke's final shot on the Death Star as being a Force ability, but he is being coached, sort of, by Obi-wan at the time through his Force spirit and had some very small practical training on reaching out to The Force on the Falcon.

Rey has none of this, and she picks up on very specific Force abilities. The ability to influence minds with the Force isn't like piloting a fighter. Lots of non-Force sensitives can pilot a fighter or freighter. She uses the Force in a very specific way that canon tells us takes years of Jedi training to master. She Mary Sue'd it in a moment. Flying a fighter or the Falcon I don't have a problem with. Even fighting with a lightsaber, which Clone Wars tells us is not specific to the Jedi in the Darksaber arc, is not necessarily Jedi specific. Though fighting well with a lightsaber, having Force precognition needed to fight another Jedi or Sith, is something built up over years of training.

Anyway, plot holes abound in all the Episodes. I find VIII to have egregious ones. But not the one that I the PP had up above.

You're right. If anything spontaneously learning to use a spiritual energy is probably much easier than operating a complicated machine. I'll go hop in an F-35 with no training or even an instruction manual, and go see if I can fly a successful combat mission. I probably couldn't even turn the thing on! I could watch a video on YouTube about yoga and meditation to help me relax, and I'd probably get the hang of that much quicker.

I know, it's not really the same universe with the same rules, but still, I jsut don't see the big deal. She mind-tricked a Storm Trooper! They're probably like the weakest minded people you can find. I guess, for me, I'm willing to let that slide as no big deal.

 

[jknezek]

You're right. If anything spontaneously learning to use a spiritual energy is probably much easier than operating a complicated machine. I'll go hop in an F-35 with no training or even an instruction manual, and go see if I can fly a successful combat mission. I probably couldn't even turn the thing on! I could watch a video on YouTube about yoga and meditation to help me relax, and I'd probably get the hang of that much quicker.

I know, it's not really the same universe with the same rules, but still, I jsut don't see the big deal. She mind-tricked a Storm Trooper! They're probably like the weakest minded people you can find. I guess, for me, I'm willing to let that slide as no big deal.

You forget that canon tells us both Rey and Luke knew how to fly something before stepping into freighters and fighters. So yeah, more like going from flying a Cessna to flying a fighter. Still pretty incredulous I'll grant, but as I said, Star Wars is full of these moments. However, canon tells us that mind tricking someone isn't just difficult, it takes training to learn. That is specifically spelled out in canon. In "Heir to the Jedi", which was written with input from Lucasfilm and debuted in 2015, making it part of canon, Luke actually fails when using a mind trick. The line is pretty specific in that he realizes he is missing the training to make it work. Ezra Bridger learns it in Rebels through a dark Holocron, but he struggles with it as well at times.

Canon is always shifting. This is one of those moments where, for the sake of a plot shortcut, canon was just randomly tossed out the window.

 

[BrianL]

Well, hey, I understand that some fans like to be pretty strict with that stuff. For me, it's just not not something I worry about too much.

 

[jade1]

Yes, I don't know what the big fuss about Rey having to be in some lineage to have the Force. The prequels showed that it is pervasive and can crop up seemingly randomly. Yes, if one of your parents was strong with the force then you likely will be as well, but it can still manifest in others. Many, many Force sensitive beings aren't even Jedi or Sith or anybody. They're just regular people who may not even really know about all of that. The Force is actually present in ALL life forms.

The Rey stuff doesn't really bother me. She's no more capable than Luke in New Hope who can go fly an X-Wing for the first time with a bunch of professional fighter pilots and be one of three people coming back alive after blowing up the Death Star. She's no more perfect than 10 year old Anakin Skywalker winning Pod Races and taking out a Droid Control Ship in a fighter he had no familiarity with. Rey follows that same trope, and it's one that just doesn't bother me.

Yea if they stay with no lineage for Rey in IX, then this has to be the angle.

Doesn't seem to make sense she had the "abandoned" flashback in VII but whatev.

If they cave and like Qi'ra ends up her mom with Han or something like that, and Qi'ra ends up with powers, then it's back to lineage IMO, at least the "ease" of learning the force anyway.

 

[PrincessArlena'sDad]

I don't consider VIII a success. Yeah, it had really good opening numbers, because people were hyped to see it, after the cliff hanger of finding Luke at the end of VII, but word of mouth killed revenue after the opening weeks.

Solo flopped because of disappointment in VIII.

TLJ had only 2/3 the box office revenue from VII. That's a huge drop. Plus, the merchandizing revenue for VIII basically stunk. Yes, it made a ton of money, but compared to what it COULD have made, had it been a popular movie (I won't say "good," that's too subjective), it can't be considered anything but a huge financial disappointment for Disney.

So, 2/4 successful Star Wars movies
Production problems on rouge 1 (extensive reshoots, drastic changes to the movie)
Production problems on Solo
New director for IX.

That's 3/5 with production issues.

And, a large percentage of long time Star Wars fans are angry/upset/POd.

For this, they renewed her contract? Dumb.

 

[DVCcurious]

Star Wars died the minute Wicket poked Leia with his stick.


But seriously...

I get why Disney is trying to move on from Luke, Leia, Chewie, Vader, etc. the story has been told and they want to move on to new things.

Frankly they should never have made any of the 4 movies they have and gone in a totally new direction.

My problem is summed up in Kathleen Kennedy’s favorite t shirt “The Force is Female”. Disney is first and foremost pushing an agenda. If you agree with it you won’t see it. But for some of us it makes the new movies cringe-worthy.

Why is Rey a Mary Sue? Because the movies must have “strong women”. Give me a Sarah Conner over a Rey every time. Give me a character with fears and doubts who overcomes adversity. But The Agenda demands all women are flawless.

So I’ve lost interest. It’s not even about a boycott. I don’t watch romantic comedies because I have no interest in the stories. I won’t watch Star Wars for the same reason.

Disney can do whatever’s it wants. But I am not going to pay to be lectured at like some Freshman in a Womyn’s Studies class.

 

[Matt-japanxninja]

Very cool

 

[ChrisFL]

The main problem I had with VIII is that Rian Johnson was brought in for ONE movie, in the middle of a trilogy and decided to throw a lot of things out the window, then expecting the next director to clean it all up...in the 9th installment of the franchise. If Rian Johnson was going to direct VIII AND IX, I wouldn't be as concerned.

 

[DVCcurious]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...targeted-by-russian-trolls-study-says-1148475


Not only did the Russians steal the election, they also are the ones trashing The Last Jedi!

My cover has been blown. I’m off to drink some vodka, ride my Siberian Tiger and watch Drago IV, or as you Americans call it Rocky IV. Except in our version Ivan Drago beats Rocky and we win the Cold War.

Goodbye Comrades!

 

[ChrisFL]

I also think Han Solo was completely mis-cast in the Solo movie

 

[mrcase77]

I don't consider VIII a success. Yeah, it had really good opening numbers, because people were hyped to see it, after the cliff hanger of finding Luke at the end of VII, but word of mouth killed revenue after the opening weeks.

Solo flopped because of disappointment in VIII.

TLJ had only 2/3 the box office revenue from VII. That's a huge drop. Plus, the merchandizing revenue for VIII basically stunk. Yes, it made a ton of money, but compared to what it COULD have made, had it been a popular movie (I won't say "good," that's too subjective), it can't be considered anything but a huge financial disappointment for Disney.

So, 2/4 successful Star Wars movies
Production problems on rouge 1 (extensive reshoots, drastic changes to the movie)
Production problems on Solo
New director for IX.

That's 3/5 with production issues.

And, a large percentage of long time Star Wars fans are angry/upset/POd.

For this, they renewed her contract? Dumb.

With all due respect, large parts of the Star Wars fan base are perpetually upset and have been long before Disney bought the franchise. (And I love me some Star Wars....it’s just how the fan base is). And the drop off in movie 2 is normal for this franchise. In all 3 trilogies now, the second movie had a big drop off. Episode 8 is still one of the highest grossing films in history.

Solo was arguably just released too soon. The older trilogy films had always been released a few years apart and they released solo 6 months after Episode 8. It was just too much too fast. I loved Episode 8 and was still less enthusiastic about Solo just because I was getting burned out.

 

[Doug M]

With all due respect, large parts of the Star Wars fan base are perpetually upset and have been long before Disney bought the franchise. (And I love me some Star Wars....it’s just how the fan base is). And the drop off in movie 2 is normal for this franchise. In all 3 trilogies now, the second movie had a big drop off. Episode 8 is still one of the highest grossing films in history.

Solo was arguably just released too soon. The older trilogy films had always been released a few years apart and they released solo 6 months after Episode 8. It was just too much too fast. I loved Episode 8 and was still less enthusiastic about Solo just because I was getting burned out.

Movie 2 is a drop off in the franchise? Empire Strikes Back is generally considered the greatest of the original trilogy.

 

[The Pho]

Movie 2 is a drop off in the franchise? Empire Strikes Back is generally considered the greatest of the original trilogy.

And it made less than the first one. The drop in box office is what he was referring to. $460 million vs $290 million.

 

[PuppyJonathan]

Star Wars died the minute Wicket poked Leia with his stick.


But seriously...

I get why Disney is trying to move on from Luke, Leia, Chewie, Vader, etc. the story has been told and they want to move on to new things.

Frankly they should never have made any of the 4 movies they have and gone in a totally new direction.

My problem is summed up in Kathleen Kennedy’s favorite t shirt “The Force is Female”. Disney is first and foremost pushing an agenda. If you agree with it you won’t see it. But for some of us it makes the new movies cringe-worthy.

Why is Rey a Mary Sue? Because the movies must have “strong women”. Give me a Sarah Conner over a Rey every time. Give me a character with fears and doubts who overcomes adversity. But The Agenda demands all women are flawless.

So I’ve lost interest. It’s not even about a boycott. I don’t watch romantic comedies because I have no interest in the stories. I won’t watch Star Wars for the same reason.

Disney can do whatever’s it wants. But I am not going to pay to be lectured at like some Freshman in a Womyn’s Studies class.

Self retracted

 

[mrcase77]

And it made less than the first one. The drop in box office is what he was referring to. $460 million vs $290 million.

Yep.

 

[PuppyJonathan]

With all due respect, large parts of the Star Wars fan base are perpetually upset and have been long before Disney bought the franchise. (And I love me some Star Wars....it’s just how the fan base is). And the drop off in movie 2 is normal for this franchise. In all 3 trilogies now, the second movie had a big drop off. Episode 8 is still one of the highest grossing films in history.

Solo was arguably just released too soon. The older trilogy films had always been released a few years apart and they released solo 6 months after Episode 8. It was just too much too fast. I loved Episode 8 and was still less enthusiastic about Solo just because I was getting burned out.

I’m just going to add on to what you said, I think part of the reason why Episode VIII is still one of the highest grossing movies ever and still had the drop off it did was the rewatch factor. I’ve read a lot about repeat viewings for force awakings but nothing for Last Jedi. I feel like I just started a whole other debate regarding quality with the Last Jedi (Last Jedi had a lot of strong counterprogramming unlike force awakens. Jumamji made 400 million just in America and then there was the greatest showman. I think that was a huge reason as to the drop). But now that I bring up rewatches but I only brought it up because I feel like it was a perfect anecdote to what you said. I had this whole rant prepared about the toxicity of the Star Wars fanbase but realized it’s not worth my time and the stress