How Would You Define Commercial Use?

[foxinsox]

At the risk of starting (or continuing) something ugly, I am intrigued by this vague concept of renting points for "commercial" use. Disney doesn't define commercial use, nor the penalties for doing it. Looking at the trading board, I would say that renting points is a common practice, if Disney decided to stop "Commercial" use, do you think they would stop all trading or define certain activity for target? If you were in charge how would you define commercial use and how would you stop it? I would probably define commercial use as renting over 500 pts/year, but I even struggle with that becuase this equates to about $5,000/year, and that is far from operating as a commercial business??? I am intrigued by this becuase Disney left it so vague in the wording of the agreements.

 

[RobDoc]

Disney itself rents rooms at DVC resorts ... and I'd call their operation "commercial use". That fact alone clouds any ability fo Disney to stop the rental, by members, of the property they own/control.

IMO, one definition of "commercial use" would certainly prohibit the use of any DVC villa for use in offering goods or services to the general public. I should not be allowed to open a dental office in a 2BR villa at any resort. No one should be allowed to run their own store or beauty salon from their studio.

Another "commercial" definition, IMO, would prevent "DVC Points-R-Us" from opening and advertising their national service of renting DVC accommdations at a discount.

If renting a specific number of points is denoted as being "commercial" it certainly could harm the ability of someone who does own the prescribed limit of points (as already defined by Disney- 2,000 per resort/maximum of 5,000).

I think we sometimes get too hung up on trying to define renting in general as a "commercial" activity. Until Disney provides a clear definition (the current definition is "a pattern of activity deemed by the Board of Directors" and is, IMO, intentionally vague), it is entirely up to the Board to initiate any action against rental activity. Some action could have already taken place and we have no way to know.

.02

 

[PamOKW]

Something that I haven't seen done (yet) that is mentioned specifically is that we are not permitted to put "For Rent" signs in the windows.

 

[CarolMN]

The documents that I signed at purchase in 1999 allow me to rent my ownership interest. (So far I haven't, though - not enough points for my own use). It even says so on the Quality checklist. Both the checklist and the POS also say that there is no guarantee that I will be able to do so as I will be competing with Disney. Above are paraphrased, but I know that is what the contract documents say. I've looked it up in the recent past.

Because of those statements in the Checklist and POS, it is my belief that Disney is defines "commercial use" more in the vein of "running a business out of DVC accomodations". (Like Doc's example of opening a dental office).

While many people do not like the practice of renting, it is not prohibited.

Do not have access to my documents or POS CD at the moment - I'm sure anyone who does can find the statements I refer to.

 

[Doctor P]

That fact that DVD rents their interest is irrelevant to the discussion, IMHO. Both in the declarations for the condominium that I previously owned and, now in another state, in the covenants in the PUD in which my house is located, the rules do not apply to (or need not apply to) the developer of the property. I will agree that the notion of commercial use is a slippery one, but one that is not, IMHO, without parameters. Here are some necessary conditions for a finding of commercial:

1) Making a profit (even at a loss, something can be considered commercial but I won't go into the details--but making a profit is prima facie evidence of commercial activity). I'm not going to go into details, but I'm confident that there are cases where I could argue that someone charging $5 per point is making a profit and someone charging $11 per point is not--depends on the facts and the circumstances.

2) I would argue that commercial also requires that the activity show a pattern of recurrence and some level of regularity. If you have 50 points, rather than 500, and you always rent them you may be in the "commercial category."

3) I would argue that the activity needs to be in some way "open and notorious" (it would also likely need to be so to even be discerned).

4) Most of all, it has to tick somebody off (mostly Disney), or no one will care, LOL. And there are a limited number of cases I know of that certainly meet all 4 criteria.

 

[Dean]

I think many people let their wishful thinking get in the way of reason. In most state and I've been told in FL, one cannot limit one group's renting without those rules applying to all. A developer could not limit short term rentals while doing the same himself. Of course Disney is the 600# Gorilla and if they chose to be difficult they certainly could be even if they were legally wrong.

There are many locations where renting is expressly allowed in the POS and the one reference to "commercial rental activity". I agree with Doc that it's vague and likely unenforceable even if Disney were not renting themselves. Regardless, anything less than hanging out a sign in a storefront and renting DVC from that will not get any action to interfere from Disney. The idea of how many points or how much is made per point is a ludicrous marker as long as the points are within the ownership parameters, currently 2000 per resort and 5000 per person.

There two people I'm aware of that might be on the other side of any line I'd draw and I don't know their afairs enough to be certain even then. Both are familiar to the board. One would be obvious and the other not to most but in some ways is the more egregious of the two IMO.

Added for clarification: There is no one I feel is using their points truly wrongly that I know of. There are a handful using them differently than I would want to. I was trying to say that IF DVC wanted to and legally could envoke this rule, there are only two I'd think MIGHT be on the other end that I know of based on my knowledge of the rules and laws involved. Not based on any view of whether I like them or not.

 

[Nick@ VB+OKW]

Originally posted by foxinsox
If you were in charge how would you define commercial use......

I think someone renting prime weeks on E-bay to the highest bidder is not what DVC had in mind.

Also someone renting 100 % of there pts every year is not what DVC was intended for.

I consider the above examples as commercial use.

 

[Doctor P]

Profit motive and the actual making of a profit is a defining characteristic of a business (as opposed to a hobby) in tax law. Therefore, I stand by my statement regarding the price per point. Another example is that of resale of tickets to events. Many, if not most states, do not define as scalping (or as an activity that requires a specific business license) the resale of tickets at or below face value.

 

[Pa@okw95]

Renting out your points for money or other goods and services would mean commerical use in my opinion. You could only give your points to someone to use like a relative for example. I would like to see this happen, just too many non members make for problems to the units.

 

[dianeschlicht]

I just went to one of the Ebay OKW offerings and found this statement:
"SquareTrade Travel Verified 009766929631"

" By listing this auction I verify that I am the actual travel agent or travel provider and not a third party affiliate. The travel/accommodations in this auction will be booked directly through me and not an outside agency. I also verify that, other than the government fees stated within the listing description itself, there will be absolutely no additional fees, charges or after auction purchases associated with booking the travel within this listing."

That part sounds pretty commercial to me! I have no problem with folks renting a few points out when they can't use them or even to help defray their maintenance fees, but the use of Ebay to always have these kinds of 5 night stays available smacks of commercial use to me.