How to decide how much to push your child?

[Mickey'snewestfan]

My 11 year old is moving from 5th grade in a "crunchy granola charter school" to 6th grade in a much more traditional public middle school with a great reputation, high test scores etc . . .

The new school offers a choice for each subject of "honors" and "on level". For math and English the classes are actually separate, but for science and social studies the kids are "cluster grouped" which means that the kids are in the same class but get different assignments. My understanding is that as many as 1/2 the kids in the school are in honors, so that every class has a "cluster" in it.

The school has suggested that my son start with all "on level" classes. They feel that since he's coming from out of district, this will be a good way to sort of ease him in to things. In addition, his placement tests clearly indicated that "on level" is the right place for him for math (and I agree 100% with that).

However, they also said that except for math, it was up to me. I'm wondering if it's crazy for me to ask that he be put in honors for one other subject -- specifically social studies. Social Studies has always been an area of interest of his -- he asks lots of questions related to social studies, talks a lot about things like politics, is much more likely to read historical fiction than say a science book. In addition, his report card, which is generally "on grade level/meets expectations" for most academic subjects, has been consistently "above grade level" in social studies for the past few years.

My biggest worry with pushing him up, is that he'll flounder and it will hurt his self esteem to be moved back down (since moving down wouldn't involve a schedule change, we could do it at any time). At the same time, he's a very quiet kid in the classroom, not very assertive with adults, and I worry that if he goes in as "on level" they're just going to assume that that's where he belongs, that he's not raising his hand, it's because he doesn't know the answer. I feel as though if he goes in with the "honors" designation, the teacher will look at him differently and be more likely to push, which he responds well to.

Am I being a crazy, pushy mom if I call back and ask for this change? I'd leave him in "on level" for everything else, just push him up for the one subject.

What do you think?

 

[Luv Bunnies]

If the school suggested that he start "on level" for all classes, then that's probably where I would have him placed. Transitioning to a new school can be very difficult for any child. Perhaps you can alert the teacher that he does well in social studies and to watch for signs that he can be moved up to honors in a few months if he qualifies.

 

[CowboyCO]

deleted - wrong thread

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

If the school suggested that he start "on level" for all classes, then that's probably where I would have him placed. Transitioning to a new school can be very difficult for any child. Perhaps you can alert the teacher that he does well in social studies and to watch for signs that he can be moved up to honors in a few months if he qualifies.

I guess where I'm torn is that it's the new school, who doesn't really know him, who is making the suggestion, and specifically it's the new guidance counselor (it was literally her first day) who is making the suggestion. His old district doesn't divide up classes this way, so they don't have a suggestion about "on" vs. "above level" classes, but they do describe his skills as "above level".

Every sixth grader is new, although most are obviously coming in from in district, so the school has a better sense of their skills.

 

[Ohiodislover]

I agree with Bunnies. New school, new peers, new teachers, and new expectations.

My girls both switched school in elementary (one 2nd and one 5th). Both were top of their class in the old school. The first half at the new school was terrible. They knew the material, but faltered. They both settled in and excelled the last half of the year. The next year were back in honors and GT where they have remained since.

I wouldn't have wanted to push them into the higher level classes. It would have been much worse for them to fail at the higher level. It was a confidence builder for them to do well in the middle of the road.

I understand that your child is Middle school and not elementary, but I think I would have still felt the same way.

 

[golfgal]

In my experience it is a LOT easier to get a child moved from honors to "on level" then it is from "on level" to honors. It is pretty standard that a district doesn't place kids coming from other schools in their advanced programs-I don't know why. I would rather a child got B's in an honors class and be challenged then skate through regular classes with an A.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

In my experience it is a LOT easier to get a child moved from honors to "on level" then it is from "on level" to honors. It is pretty standard that a district doesn't place kids coming from other schools in their advanced programs-I don't know why. I would rather a child got B's in an honors class and be challenged then skate through regular classes with an A.

I guess I'm kind of leaning that way, that if he starts as all "on level" that's how they'll see him, and since he's not a particularly assertive as a student, they'll just leave him there. On the other hand, I agree that with such a big change (e.g. changing districts plus elementary to middle school) I don't want to push him too hard. So, I'm thinking that just one class, and of course picking his best class, plus with the cluster grouping it's not a big deal to switch out, might be the best call. If he does well there, then I'll be able to make the case for more honors classes. If it's too much, then we'll know that before 7th grade when honors classes and on level are completely separate.

But, I also hear what other people are saying about this being a big enough transition, and maybe not the time to push him.

I guess the question is, if there's a 50% chance that we'll put him in the wrong level -- which has the worse consequences. Putting him too high (and having him "fail" and move back) or putting him too low, and risking him staying there when he could do more.

 

[golfgal]

Honestly, I think the transition from elementary school to middle school is much harder on the parents then it is on the kids. The teachers help the kids adjust, find classes, etc. It really isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

 

[bookgirl]

If you start him in an honor's class and it becomes to much for him, then the drop down to 'on level' could do more damage than if he starts at all his classes on level then shows promise and is moved up. I've never seen a school refuse to move a kid up to an appropriate level, and they for sure will drop him down if he can't hack it.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

If you start him in an honor's class and it becomes to much for him, then the drop down to 'on level' could do more damage than if he starts at all his classes on level then shows promise and is moved up. I've never seen a school refuse to move a kid up to an appropriate level, and they for sure will drop him down if he can't hack it.

Why? I guess I'm thinking that I'd say "we don't know which level is right for you this year, so for science and social studies we're going to pick one of each. In a few months we'll know more and you might switch one of those classes. If it doesn't go well, at the end of first quarter I can say "Switching schools is hard, isn't it? I'm proud of you for trying, but I think on level makes more sense right now. If you want to try again next year, after you adjust, you can."

If I were proposing all "honors" I'd feel differently, but I'm proposing one honors class out of seven, and one where if he does switch he won't have to change his schedule or his teacher.

 

[Buckalew11]

I vote, "Try it". It is a subject he likes and I'm betting he'll do fine with the challenge. It is one class. One--out of seven.
I have a dd who enjoys challenges and does better with tougher teachers and harder classes. I'm for challenges classes--NOT more assigning, which is often what happens in honors classes (just give them more work (home/busy) not challenging them in a constructive way. If you can find out if these classes are being taught in THAT way and not the assigning department, go for it!

 

[allison443]

Based on what you have posted I think you should ask to have him in the honors class for social studies. If it doesn't go well, next year he can be on level, if he can handle it, great. He's only going into 6th grade, right? This isn't going to affect the rest of his life. I also think most kids can handle the transition, especially since they are all going through it.

The only thing I would mention is that if you ask for this change, I feel you need to understand what the higher level class entails. Is it more homework, more projects, more reading/writing, faster paced? The school can probably give you a good idea of that.

I also think if you request this placement, you and your son need to be willing to accept the requirements, and also accept if he gets less than an A.

I did something similar for one of my dds in middle school, we had a conference to discuss placement and I asked that she be put in the higher math (various reasons). She was, it was great, she got a great foundation although she didn't get an A which she probably would have in the lower level class.

Good luck!

 

[allison443]

Also wanted to add, I re-read the part where you said half the kids are in honors? So are half the kids regular social studies and half are in honors social studies? If that's the case I would definitely ask for placement in honors. It's not really some elite group-it's half the students.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

My understanding is that it's about 50% of the kids in each subject. In reading/foreign language, English and math, it's actually different classes, and teachers. I wouldn't do that to him unless I was confident he could do it. In Science and Social Studies the kids are in the same room, and get different assignments and I think different tests. In 7th I think all the classes are actually separate. So, if he goes into honors and doesn't do well it's as simple as calling the teacher and guidance counselor to get him switched. I'm not sure the other kids would be aware that he be switched, and the next day he gets the other assignments.

I have a friend whose kid is there and does honors SS, and regular science. I'm going to ask her if I can look at the assignments.

I don't really care what grades he gets -- if he does honors and sticks with it, and gets a C, I'll be proud. If he does honors and it's just too hard, we'll switch and I'll be proud of him for trying. It's 6th grade so his grades aren't going to be used for college admissions.

 

[bookgirl]

Why? I guess I'm thinking that I'd say "we don't know which level is right for you this year, so for science and social studies we're going to pick one of each. In a few months we'll know more and you might switch one of those classes. If it doesn't go well, at the end of first quarter I can say "Switching schools is hard, isn't it? I'm proud of you for trying, but I think on level makes more sense right now. If you want to try again next year, after you adjust, you can."

If I were proposing all "honors" I'd feel differently, but I'm proposing one honors class out of seven, and one where if he does switch he won't have to change his schedule or his teacher.

New school, new kids, etc. He gets in an honors course and finds out that his old school hadn't prepared him for an honors course and he starts to flounder. Even though he might just need a little time to catch up the school moves him back down. That's a big hit to a kid who's trying to find his own footsteps in a new school. It may feel like a failure.

However if he starts off in the on level courses and the teachers see him excelling and decide he needs more of a challenge then he gets a boost to his self esteem.

If he starts in on level and that's where he needs to be then no harm no foul and he spends his time not worrying about trying to make the grade but in making new friends and finding his place in a new school.

On level classes is a good starting point because he either fits right in and moves on with adjusting to a new school or he excells and gets to move up. Win Win situation.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

New school, new kids, etc. He gets in an honors course and finds out that his old school hadn't prepared him for an honors course and he starts to flounder. Even though he might just need a little time to catch up the school moves him back down. That's a big hit to a kid who's trying to find his own footsteps in a new school. It may feel like a failure.

However if he starts off in the on level courses and the teachers see him excelling and decide he needs more of a challenge then he gets a boost to his self esteem.

If he starts in on level and that's where he needs to be then no harm no foul and he spends his time not worrying about trying to make the grade but in making new friends and finding his place in a new school.

On level classes is a good starting point because he either fits right in and moves on with adjusting to a new school or he excells and gets to move up. Win Win situation.

Other possibility, he starts on level across the board, in an environment where almost nobody does, because if 1/2 the kids are taking honors in each subject, then the majority must be taking honors is at least 1 subject. It's like he's got a label stuck on his forehead "expect less of me than the other kids". He's quiet in the classroom, doesn't raise his hand, doesn't volunteer (because he's already shy, so now he's new and shy). Teacher looks at him and assumes that he's quiet because he doesn't know the answer, or that he's not smart.

 

[Buckalew11]

So, are other kids coming into this school from the "crunchy granola school"? I ask because ours does and the city schools aren't thrilled with this one particular school (in the city also but it is yr round and different style). However, those kids tend to outshine the other kids in middle school and high school. This past years senior class was full of kids from the "crunchy granola school" that did excellent, earned more scholarships and had the highest GPAs.

BTW, my child goes to neither so I'm neutral.

 

[Mickey'snewestfan]

So, are other kids coming into this school from the "crunchy granola school"? I ask because ours does and the city schools aren't thrilled with this one particular school (in the city also but it is yr round and different style). However, those kids tend to outshine the other kids in middle school and high school. This past years senior class was full of kids from the "crunchy granola school" that did excellent, earned more scholarships and had the highest GPAs.

BTW, my child goes to neither so I'm neutral.

We moved across state line, so there aren't a lot of kids from "crunchy school" at this one. I think there was one other a few years ago, but I don't know how she did. I do think there's a bias against kids coming from "the city". Part of the reason why I'm questioning their decision, is that I wonder how much of it is that they're assuming that a child from a school they've never heard of with an inner city address can't possibly meet their standards.

I should add that the guidance counselor made the suggestion on her very first day working at the school, so even if the other child who made the jump struggled, I doubt the guidance couselor had that information.

 

[whatcateydid]

I'm in the UK and we don't have the honours system so ignore me if this isn't relevant, but I think it could be a good idea to put him in honours Social Studies. You said the honours and non-honours students are taught in the same classroom, so if he gets moved down to on-level it won't be as obvious to other students as if he had to move classes. And if so many students at the school are in honours classes, having him in one honours class might help him fit in and boost his self esteem from the outset. I think it's a good idea for you to look at your friend's child's assignments if you can. Also, have you spoken to your son about taking honours classes? How does he feel?

 

[Becky2005]

If I'm understanding this correctly -- the system is set up like this:

30 students are in Mrs. T's class.

15 of those students get the Honors assignments & 15 of those students get the On Level assignments.

However, all 30 are in Mrs. T's class listening to the same lectures, classroom stuff, etc...

If your child starts out with the Honors assignments and starts failing, all that has to happen is Mrs. T starts handing out the on-level assignments to him instead.

In this scenerio I think I would go ahead and try the Honors version!

We have a similar scenerio but not in Honors level just regular level. My son has a disability, he is in the lower level class, he started out there & basically passed the test they gave them on the first day of stuff they would go over (he said the test was extremely hard though) -- so they attempted to move him to the regular class. It was a disaster as he missed class procedures, rules, was in way over his head (plus this teacher was probably the hardest teacher they could have put him in, my DD had her & she worked very hard to get a B & she is a typical student). He ended up moving back and it was just a pain but that's because his schedule changed both moves. This year we are doing it the other way around, we would much rather him start OUT in the regular class with assistance so he knows everything up front (procedures, rules, etc...) and then if things don't work out go ahead and move him back to the much slower paced class.

I think as long as your son knows it's a try it & see, so he knows that even if he moves back it's not a horrible thing.