How powerful is a PRAYER?

[aquinas]

Yup, that is almost totally exclusive to Christians. One of the reasons there appears to be a agenda against them. But those saying there is an agenda against them like to ignore they are the only ones out there witnessing, which is basically telling others they are wrong and they are the only ones that are right.

Never mind Islam which you either convert or be killed in many areas of the world right now.

 

[jimmiej]

Neither of those quotes have anything to do with the question.

Sure they do. The Bible talks about Christians earning rewards from God based on their actions & deeds after they become believers. Believer A becomes a Christian, but for various reasons never matures spiritually. Believer B becomes a Christian & uses his/her spiritual gifts to teach, preach, lead others to Christ, etc.; they will be rewarded. That's what I Corinthians 3 is talking about, IMO. Here's another example:

James 1

12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

IOW, it makes a big difference to God what we do with our life after we become Christians. The Revelation talks about Believer's Judgement, which is seperate & completely different from The Lamb's Book of Life Judgement.

 

[jimmiej]

I take that to mean the following:

My best efforts = failure
My best efforts + belief in Christ = success

I don't understand the "once saved always saved" concept either. I know that people much better educated in the Bible than I DO believe it, but I just don't get it.

Here's my take:

Belief in Christ = Success (your word), resulting in My Best

RE: "once saved always saved"

If I can lose my salvation, then it's all about my effort (works). It ceases to be about Christ's sacrifice (free gift the Bible calls it). Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[phillybeth]

Sure they do. The Bible talks about Christians earning rewards from God based on their actions & deeds after they become believers. Believer A becomes a Christian, but for various reasons never matures spiritually. Believer B becomes a Christian & uses his/her spiritual gifts to teach, preach, lead others to Christ, etc.; they will be rewarded. That's what I Corinthians 3 is talking about, IMO. Here's another example:

James 1

12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

IOW, it makes a big difference to God what we do with our life after we become Christians. The Revelation talks about Believer's Judgement, which is seperate & completely different from The Lamb's Book of Life Judgement.

No, the questions was if two souls wind up in Heaven, does the Christian soul have an advantage. Not does a Christian, or a 'better' Christian, have an advantage getting there.

And what the heck is the crown of life? And how does that make Heaven better/worse?

 

[jimmiej]

No, the questions was if two souls wind up in Heaven, does the Christian soul have an advantage. Not does a Christian, or a 'better' Christian, have an advantage getting there.

And what the heck is the crown of life? And how does that make Heaven better/worse?

OK, I understood the question to be two Christians. Anyways, I don't believe non-Christians will be in heaven. Biblical heaven is reserved for those who accept Christ, IMO.


Crown of Life (Matthew Henry's Commentary, 1706):

Sufferings and temptations are the way to eternal blessedness: When he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, dokimos genomenos--when he is approved, when his graces are found to be true and of the highest worth (so metals are tried as to their excellency by the fire), and when his integrity is manifested, and all is approved of the great Judge. Note hence, To be approved of God is the great aim of a Christian in all his trials; and it will be his blessedness at last, when he shall receive the crown of life.

Our enduring temptations must be from a principle of love to God and to our Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise we are not interested in this promise: The Lord hath promised to those that love him.

The crown of life is promised not only to great and eminent saints, but to all those who have the love of God reigning in their hearts. Every soul that truly loves God shall have its trials in this world fully recompensed in that world above where love is made perfect.

 

[rockbottomsound]

Here's my take:

Belief in Christ = Success (your word), resulting in My Best

RE: "once saved always saved"

If I can lose my salvation, then it's all about my effort (works). It ceases to be about Christ's sacrifice (free gift the Bible calls it). Ephesians 2:8-9

So your saying that, for example, Hitler was a Christian in the early part of his life, he is still saved?

 

[jimmiej]

So your saying that, for example, Hitler was a Christian in the early part of his life, he is still saved?

Technically, yes, but from my understanding of history, I would have serious questions whether a person like that ever made a commitment to Christ. "You know a tree by it's fruit."

I'd like your thoughts on this part of my post:

If I can lose my salvation, then it's all about my effort (works). It ceases to be about Christ's sacrifice (free gift the Bible calls it). Ephesians 2:8-9

Paul is very adamant that we are saved by grace & not works. Help me understand where you're coming from. How about I Corinthians 3:15? What does that mean?

 

[rockbottomsound]

Technically, yes, but from my understanding of history, I would have serious questions whether a person like that ever made a commitment to Christ. "You know a tree by it's fruit."

I'd like your thoughts on this part of my post:



Paul is very adamant that we are saved by grace & not works. Help me understand where you're coming from. How about I Corinthians 3:15? What does that mean?

Sure. First off, and please don't take offense to my opinion and take on this, but I think you are slightly off base in your reasoning IMO. Yes it is very true that we are saved by grace/Jesus' sacrifice etc., and not on pure works alone. Obviously we are all sinners, will never be perfect and could not possibly be saved through our own works, but only through what Jesus did which was make the ultimate sacrifice for us worthless humans.

But with that being said, I think where you are missing the other side of the equation, and I think there is an equation. Is that its not "end result works" that counts, "but our efforts at striving to be good Christians that count." In other words "trying" to live right, giving it our all so to speak. We are all going to come up short, but its the effort that counts. So here is the equation (Grace/Jesus sacrifice) + baptism + trying to live a Christian life = salvation.

I think where you are wrong in the Hitler example is that I think if he was at one time a Christian, he may have lived a good life and tried to be a Christian (this is not that great of an example because I don't think he ever did or was a Christian) but nonetheless, say he was at one time. He since became lost because he stopped trying to live a Christian life. He turned his back on being a Christian and thus turned his back on Jesus. That is where he became lost again.

The references to "once saved always saved" in the Bible, mean that yes, you will always be saved, if you continue to try and live a Christian life and do not turn your back on Jesus/God. Those that say to heck with being a Christian and cease trying to live a good/Christian life IMO become lost again. I know your reasoning is that "well they were never saved to begin with" that could be true, I don't know, it is kind of a point of view. But I do think that people can turn or go bad.

 

[jimmiej]

Sure. First off, and please don't take offense to my opinion and take on this, but I think you are slightly off base in your reasoning IMO.

I take no offense. Rather, I very much enjoy the give & take. Thanks for your well-worded explanation.

However, we may have to agree to disagree on this. My belief (as I'm sure your's) in "once/always saved" is set in bedrock.

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

This is why I think in your example, he was never saved to begin with.

From Matthew Henry's Commentary regarding the above Scripture:

He argues from the precious promises and privileges of the new covenant, Romans 6:14. It might be objected that we cannot conquer and subdue sin, it is unavoidably too hard for us: "No," says he, "you wrestle with an enemy that may be dealt with and subdued, if you will but keep your ground and stand to your arms; it is an enemy that is already foiled and baffled; there is strength laid up in the covenant of grace for your assistance, if you will but use it. Sin shall not have dominion." God's promises to us are more powerful and effectual for the mortifying of sin than our promises to God. Sin may struggle in a believer, and may create him a great deal of trouble, but it shall not have dominion; it may vex him, but shall not rule over him.

Also this:

Romans 8

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Fly me with Balloons]

All of this quoting of scripture is as factually based as me quoting my neighbor, Paul, who lives in his parent's basement. Because it is in the bible doesn't make it fact. It was written by men who, in an effort to answer peoples' unanswerable questions, and to control the ignorant, wrote things that were sent to them from "god". Just because Paul is writing to his buddies, the Philosians, doesn't mean that he is getting his information from some ethereal voice in the sky. Maybe he's nuts & conversing with his pet snake, Louie. Maybe he is watching some old Match Game PM's and laughing at Charles Nelson Reilley. Who knows? The next time you want to cite "evience" of god, try using something other than scripture, because it is not fact.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

All of this quoting of scripture is as factually based as me quoting my neighbor, Paul, who lives in his parent's basement. Because it is in the bible doesn't make it fact. It was written by men who, in an effort to answer peoples' unanswerable questions, and to control the ignorant, wrote things that were sent to them from "god". Just because Paul is writing to his buddies, the Philosians, doesn't mean that he is getting his information from some ethereal voice in the sky. Maybe he's nuts & conversing with his pet snake, Louie. Maybe he is watching some old Match Game PM's and laughing at Charles Nelson Reilley. Who knows? The next time you want to cite "evience" of god, try using something other than scripture, because it is not fact.

Why the insults?? Do you want to be told that you're ignorant because you don't believe?? You don't have to consider it fact, but let's try and keep it respectful.

 

[jimmiej]

All of this quoting of scripture is as factually based as me quoting my neighbor, Paul, who lives in his parent's basement.

How do you know this? Isn't that just your opinion?

 

[Fly me with Balloons]

Why the insults?? Do you want to be told that you're ignorant because you don't believe?? You don't have to consider it fact, but let's try and keep it respectful.

no insults, at all.

If I came on here citing L. Ron Hubbard as my factual defense for Scientology, you'd think I was simply citing opinion.

remember, without data, all you have is an opinion.

Again, when the bible was written, it was written to control the ignorant (the uneducated).

 

[Fly me with Balloons]

How do you know this? Isn't that just your opinion?

no it's not an opinion. paul doesn't know if god is real or not, either.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

no insults, at all.

If I came on here citing L. Ron Hubbard as my factual defense for Scientology, you'd think I was simply citing opinion.

remember, without data, all you have is an opinion.

Again, when the bible was written, it was written to control the ignorant (the uneducated).

Alright, I see your point that you were referring to people back in that day, although I'm not sure I agree with you. So then you're not saying that people who believe in the Bible today are ignorant??

 

[Amity 3]

So your saying that, for example, Hitler was a Christian in the early part of his life, he is still saved?

Hitler was raised Catholic, but he distanced himself from the church at an early age. but how does the whole Catholic baptism thing work?

my parents are in their seventies and still believe I'll come around to their way of thinking because I was baptized as a Lutheran. it's like I get a 'get out of hell free card' to them.

 

[jimmiej]

All of this quoting of scripture is as factually based as me quoting my neighbor, Paul, who lives in his parent's basement. Because it is in the bible doesn't make it fact. It was written by men who, in an effort to answer peoples' unanswerable questions, and to control the ignorant, wrote things that were sent to them from "god". Just because Paul is writing to his buddies, the Philosians, doesn't mean that he is getting his information from some ethereal voice in the sky. Maybe he's nuts & conversing with his pet snake, Louie. Maybe he is watching some old Match Game PM's and laughing at Charles Nelson Reilley. Who knows? The next time you want to cite "evience" of god, try using something other than scripture, because it is not fact.

You're right. Who knows? Maybe Paul really did receive a revelation from God. Maybe the words Paul wrote really were directly from God. Maybe the Bible really is the Word of God. Maybe it was given to us to help us understand our creator. Who knows?

Tell you what. I'll keep believing the Bible is 100% the Word of God & you can keep believing I'm ignorant & uneducated. I'll wear that badge with honor.

Btw, I'm not trying to convince you God exists.

 

[Saxsoon]

the conversation started out as prayer and it seems it has turned to something along Christianity. Why would a Christian not use the Bible as a source as to the power of prayer. btw, calling religious people ignorant is no better than Christians who shove the Bible down others` throats

 

[Fitswimmer]

Hitler was raised Catholic, but he distanced himself from the church at an early age. but how does the whole Catholic baptism thing work?

my parents are in their seventies and still believe I'll come around to their way of thinking because I was baptized as a Lutheran. it's like I get a 'get out of hell free card' to them.

Well, there's being baptized as a Catholic and there's being a practicing Catholic. Sure, you're always a baptized Catholic, but if you aren't practicing you aren't obeying the laws of the Church, which would be sinful and turning away from God. I don't know, but my thought is that Hitler didn't do too much practicing and judging by his actions, he had pretty much turned away from the teachings of the Church and from God.

But, as I've said before, I'm not God so I have no idea where Hitler is spending eternity.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Well, there's being baptized as a Catholic and there's being a practicing Catholic. Sure, you're always a baptized Catholic, but if you aren't practicing you aren't obeying the laws of the Church, which would be sinful and turning away from God. .

I was a baptized, Holy Communionized, Altar Girled, Confirmed Catholic.