How powerful is a PRAYER?

[Fitswimmer]

Honest question(s). How good does one have to be to earn eternal life? Does a murderer have any chance? How about an adulterer?

I was taught that anyone who came before God with true contrition for sin and a firm purpose to amend their life received the grace of eternal life. It's not like I can go out and do whatever I want, ask forgiveness and then go out and do more bad things. I have to be truly sorry and really try to improve my behavior.

 

[jimmiej]

True, but if someone is doing all those things just because they feel it's the right thing to do and not because of the Bible-it doesn't make their effort any less valuable. Whether you serve others because you see God in them or you serve others because you see a need that you can fill doesn't matter.

True. My motivation is just a little different. Maybe this will explain it:

Ephesians 2

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[lucyanna girl]

I just checked this thread for the first time since my last post.

I am very sorry if anyone here felt insulted by my post.

"I cannot imagine anything sadder than to NOT believe."

I truly did not mean to put-down, insult, hurt, or in any way say anything rude, cruel, or derogatory about any of you. I certainly did not mean to call you or your life sad. I did mean exactly what I said. I cannot imagine anything sadder than to NOT believe. Perhaps I should have started my sentence with "Personally" or "as for myself".
There have been times in my life when my faith has helped me through some very difficult times. When my daughter was gravely ill last April, when my Father was dying, when my first husband announced after dinner one night "Dinner was good, I'm leaving you and the children." These and countless other times, large and small, My faith in God and in prayer have been there for me.

Again, if I have insulted or hurt any of you I am very, very sorry.

Penny

 

[rockbottomsound]

when my first husband announced after dinner one night "Dinner was good, I'm leaving you and the children."


Penny

Ouch, that sucks Penny, hope things are going better for you.

 

[jimmiej]

I was taught that anyone who came before God with true contrition for sin and a firm purpose to amend their life received the grace of eternal life. It's not like I can go out and do whatever I want, ask forgiveness and then go out and do more bad things. I have to be truly sorry and really try to improve my behavior.

Same here. However, it's sounds to me like we might disagree on HOW a person gains eternal life. I would say there's NOTHING I can do to save myself. God says my very best is "as filthy rags" to Him. I must accept & believe in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Only then am I righteous before God. This is how I understand the Scriptures.

 

[lucyanna girl]

Ouch, that sucks Penny, hope things are going better for you.

Thanks, actually that happened many years age and I have been re-married for twenty years. At the time, as a very young mother of two very small boys, it really did suck.

Penny

 

[rockbottomsound]

Same here. However, it's sounds to me like we might disagree on HOW a person gains eternal life. I would say there's NOTHING I can do to save myself. God says my very best is "as filthy rags" to Him. I must accept & believe in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Only then am I righteous before God. This is how I understand the Scriptures.

That is probably true, no human is going to be totally worthy or without sin, all we can do is try and lead a good life.

Now there are some sects that take these scriptures to what I consider a perversion and say that you can do as much bad or sin as much as you want and you are automatically saved. The "once saved always saved" line of thinking. I don't buy that at all. I think just as the angels did, a person can fall from grace, turn their back on God or whatever. I think you have to try and lead a Christian life, we all fail, but you have to put out your best effort. The effort is what counts as far as our behaivor goes.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I just checked this thread for the first time since my last post.

I am very sorry if anyone here felt insulted by my post.

"I cannot imagine anything sadder than to NOT believe."

I truly did not mean to put-down, insult, hurt, or in any way say anything rude, cruel, or derogatory about any of you. I certainly did not mean to call you or your life sad. I did mean exactly what I said. I cannot imagine anything sadder than to NOT believe. Perhaps I should have started my sentence with "Personally" or "as for myself".
There have been times in my life when my faith has helped me through some very difficult times. When my daughter was gravely ill last April, when my Father was dying, when my first husband announced after dinner one night "Dinner was good, I'm leaving you and the children." These and countless other times, large and small, My faith in God and in prayer have been there for me.

Again, if I have insulted or hurt any of you I am very, very sorry.

Penny

I thought that was what you meant, but I'm glad you confirmed it.

 

[jimmiej]

Now there are some sects that take these scriptures to what I consider a perversion and say that you can do as much bad or sin as much as you want and you are automatically saved. The "once saved always saved" line of thinking. I don't buy that at all. I think just as the angels did, a person can fall from grace, turn their back on God or whatever. I think you have to try and lead a Christian life, we all fail, but you have to put out your best effort. The effort is what counts as far as our behaivor goes.

I'm a "once saved always saved." However, the Apostle Paul makes it clear that doesn't give us a "free pass." If we are truly saved (repentant), we are a "new creation." Our priorities change. I believe if a person says they are repentant & wants to be saved, but their is no visable change in their behavior, they probably weren't saved in the first place. 'Course, that's up to God.

 

[cybrkitn]

In any case, I think my mom is in the best position to know what is best for her (or at least, to figure it out). If my grandfather wants to pray that she returns to the Catholic Church, I have no objection to that. But I do feel strongly that it is wrong to make her feel guilty.

Thanks for the explanation and I agree with you on your last sentence above. No one should ever be made to feel guilty.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thanks for the explanation and I agree with you on your last sentence above. No one should ever be made to feel guilty.

I agree. That's really not a way to convert someone to your point of view.

 

[rockbottomsound]

I'm a "once saved always saved." However, the Apostle Paul makes it clear that doesn't give us a "free pass." If we are truly saved (repentant), we are a "new creation." Our priorities change. I believe if a person says they are repentant & wants to be saved, but their is no visable change in their behavior, they probably weren't saved in the first place. 'Course, that's up to God.

Yes, but God does not eliminate free will from us. Once we are saved we will always be saved if we continue to go down the right path. If we turn our backs on God and travel down the wrong path, I think you can lose it all.

Just as the angels in heaven that followed satan, obviously they were once "saved" and lived with God in heaven, but they turned their backs on hiim and were cast out. They "turned bad" at some point. I think the same is true with people. People can go bad as well, even if at one time they may have tried to lead a Christian life.

 

[SwedishMeatball]

I agree. That's really not a way to convert someone to your point of view.

Uh oh, you used the "c" word.

 

[cybrkitn]

Yes, but God does not eliminate free will from us. Once we are saved we will always be saved if we continue to go down the right path. If we turn our backs on God and travel down the wrong path, I think you can lose it all.

Actually that's not the case. Remember your Ouija Board thread that we have been on. I fell away, became involved with that stuff, then God turned me around and I renounced it all. We sometimes lose our way, but God will take us back with open arms. As long as we repent of our ways, He will take us back.

 

[freckles and boo]

I would say there's NOTHING I can do to save myself. God says my very best is "as filthy rags" to Him. I must accept & believe in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Only then am I righteous before God. This is how I understand the Scriptures.

This is what I meant by grovelling, although I conceed that grovel is certainly not the best word choice. Instead, I will ask why I should try to please a parent who belittles me so? Who says "my very best is as filthy as rags to Him"? Who makes me jump through hoops when I am making the best choices I can with my own free will? The free will that he supposedly gave me? If my free will doesn't matter and nothing I can do is good enough, why give people that free will at all? Again, I don't make the effort to try to be a good person for the purpose of salvation.

 

[rockbottomsound]

Actually that's not the case. Remember your Ouija Board thread that we have been on. I fell away, became involved with that stuff, then God turned me around and I renounced it all. We sometimes lose our way, but God will take us back with open arms. As long as we repent of our ways, He will take us back.

Oh yeah, I don't disagree with that at all. He will always take us back. I'm talking about someone that maybe once was a Christian, then decides to go the other way and begins to curse God and says he hates God or whatever and then dies having that attitude. That is the type of case I was referring. Of course this also begs a much bigger question. I should not presume to know exactly what God will do in these type of cases. I can only hope that we all get saved. Its not up to me to judge or make accusations, for I am a mere mortal and do not know. That was merely my opinion, that someone can fall from grace.

 

[rockbottomsound]

This is what I meant by grovelling, although I conceed that grovel is certainly not the best word choice. Instead, I will ask why I should try to please a parent who belittles me so? Who says "my very best is as filthy as rags to Him"? Who makes me jump through hoops when I am making the best choices I can with my own free will? The free will that he supposedly gave me? If my free will doesn't matter and nothing I can do is good enough, why give people that free will at all? Again, I don't make the effort to try to be a good person for the purpose of salvation.

No I'm not sure you get the point, which is yes, our actions alone cannot save us. It is through the grace of God and Jesus' sacrifice that we are saved.

In other words we are saved despite our un-worthiness and not by our actions. This is not to say that we should not try, because I do believe our effort is extremely important. This posters point was I believe that our good actions alone are not enough. That is why Jesus came to save us. That is why we should be thankful for what Jesus did. He is what made it possible. But our actions are important as well. They are just not the be all and end all in being saved, they are part of the equation.

Good actions + Jesus saving mankind=salvation (more or less)

 

[Aidensmom]

This is what I meant by grovelling, although I conceed that grovel is certainly not the best word choice. Instead, I will ask why I should try to please a parent who belittles me so? Who says "my very best is as filthy as rags to Him"? Who makes me jump through hoops when I am making the best choices I can with my own free will? The free will that he supposedly gave me? If my free will doesn't matter and nothing I can do is good enough, why give people that free will at all? Again, I don't make the effort to try to be a good person for the purpose of salvation.

Freckles and boo, I take it all to mean that none of us our perfect, and none of us have the capacity to be perfect, no matter how hard we try. To me it is actually kind of a humbling thing and makes me see that I should never consider myself to be better than someone else, because we all have our good points and our bad points. It makes me see that I am not as good as, and never can be God, and I have no right to act as if I am.

The parent analogy explains how God loves us and cares for us, etc, but it isn't really a good analogy in explaining the greatness of God as compared to humanity. If God and humans were equal, there would be no point in there being a God, IMO. The "filthy as rags" as compared to God to me is an analogy to show that he is just so much greater than we can imagine, and that it is just impossible for us to be equal with God.

 

[jimmiej]

Yes, but God does not eliminate free will from us. Once we are saved we will always be saved if we continue to go down the right path. If we turn our backs on God and travel down the wrong path, I think you can lose it all.

Just as the angels in heaven that followed satan, obviously they were once "saved" and lived with God in heaven, but they turned their backs on hiim and were cast out. They "turned bad" at some point. I think the same is true with people. People can go bad as well, even if at one time they may have tried to lead a Christian life.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[Buckalew11]

Yes, but God does not eliminate free will from us. Once we are saved we will always be saved if we continue to go down the right path. If we turn our backs on God and travel down the wrong path, I think you can lose it all.

Just as the angels in heaven that followed satan, obviously they were once "saved" and lived with God in heaven, but they turned their backs on hiim and were cast out. They "turned bad" at some point. I think the same is true with people. People can go bad as well, even if at one time they may have tried to lead a Christian life.

I am a "once saved, always saved" believer also. And no, I do not believe you can turn your back on God and stop believing in Christ's sacrifice and still go to Heaven. I think jimmiej put it perfectly from where I come from. One cannot commit sin and lose salvation. one can commit the unpardonable sin and lose salvation (if they were ever true believers in Christ to begine with which only God would know for sure).

I do not think you can equate angels and humans though. We are not the same. Angels did not make a choice of believing in God as we do. Angels are created beings by God for His purposes. (People do not die and become angels either). Sure, Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels fell from God's grace and were cast out of Heaven--I do believe that. But I do not think you can equate the two in the same way.