How do you feel about the Seaworld incident?

[DVC~OKW~96]

Rob, I agree with you one hundred percent with regard to Cirque.

I'm still a little nervous about zoos and as I said, even DAK, but can understand that much better than the trained animal stuff.

I don't like circuses at all, and don't go to them. I went to one as a child, and yes, it upset me badly.

From anything I've heard on the news, there will be no consequences for the whale. How could there be?? Good grief, it's not like the whale is capable of premeditating or understanding the import of what he did. It is natural behavior for them, after all.

Ever see one with a seal? Nature. Predation.

Great thread, by the way. Good points all, from differing perspectives. (Well, maybe not the euthanizing the kid bit)!

 

[f86sabjf]

exactly . maybe Sea world should show the video of Samu sliding up the beach and playing volleyball with a seal in its mouth. That would sell a lot of those plush toys

 

[MonorailMan]

exactly . maybe Sea world should show the video of Samu sliding up the beach and playing volleyball with a seal in its mouth. That would sell a lot of those plush toys

Nothing says "tourist trap" like a gift shop filled with dead seal toys.

 

[enigmaMN]

I'll play devil's advocate on this one...

I've always loved Sea World - particularly the work they've done in conservation efforts, etc. While I agree their shows can be a little over the top, I had the opportunity to meet with a trainer from Sea World (outside the park so it wasn't the company line) she showed me how many of these so called tricks are actually natural behaviors that are exhibited by the animal, albeit in a slightly different form. The respect and admiration she displayed for the animals entrusted to her care was amazing. She's worked in nearly every area of animal care/training.

Sea World has and continues to do amazing things for the good of animals. I think it's very foolish for anyone to suggest that these animals could survive in the wild. Remember Keiko, (the Orca from Free Willy)? He never adapted to the wild and had to be cared for in much the same manner as he was in captivity - he ultimately became listless when he was unable to seek out the human companionship he craved and died.

My thoughts go out to the trainer and her family in this difficult time. I am confident that Sea World will continue to revise the policies to ensure Tilly treated with dignity and compassion while keeping their employees as safe as possible.

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Well, I didn't see too much compassion in the holding tank where that huge whale is now being kept, for g-d knows how long.

I understand what you are saying, and no, I don't believe the once captive animals can be safely or sensibly returned to the wild. Once they have been held captive and 'trained' they are clearly not going to be able to survive as they would need to, in the wild.

Of course Seaworld does much good behind the scenes, that's a given. At least I hope it is. It's the mechanism to do the good that bothers many.

At least at DAK, the animals are given as natural as possible habitat, and allowed to remain animals. Even with that, the changes in the family troupe of the gorillas since opening is significant. The Bachelor troupe has suffered mightily for their captivity, and all because of natural behaviors that might not have gone so wrong in the wild.

There is no simple, clean across the board single answer. It is a complex issue, one that will bring out much passion in most people, which will often result in clouding the issue.

This is a great discussion, by the way. I think one of the many things I like about the folks who post here is the ability to share passionate points of view without getting nasty.

 

[enigmaMN]

Well, I didn't see too much compassion in the holding tank where that huge whale is now being kept, for g-d knows how long.

I understand what you are saying, and no, I don't believe the once captive animals can be safely or sensibly returned to the wild. Once they have been held captive and 'trained' they are clearly not going to be able to survive as they would need to, in the wild.

Of course Seaworld does much good behind the scenes, that's a given. At least I hope it is. It's the mechanism to do the good that bothers many.

At least at DAK, the animals are given as natural as possible habitat, and allowed to remain animals. Even with that, the changes in the family troupe of the gorillas since opening is significant. The Bachelor troupe has suffered mightily for their captivity, and all because of natural behaviors that might not have gone so wrong in the wild.

There is no simple, clean across the board single answer. It is a complex issue, one that will bring out much passion in most people, which will often result in clouding the issue.

This is a great discussion, by the way. I think one of the many things I like about the folks who post here is the ability to share passionate points of view without getting nasty.

With regards to the holding tank that Tilly was placed in; it was an OSHA requirement after any incident. Once the investigation of the main tank area is complete, as Sea World has already announced, Tilly will be returned to the general population. If you want to see what cruelty looks like google Lolita the orca at the Miami Seaquarium. She is the oldest orca in captivity and lives in a tiny tank that is literally crumbling. It's sad... the same can definitely not be said for any of Sea Worlds' animals.

While I can understand many who have issues with animals in captivity, in my opinion it's definitely for the greater good. In the case of the orca, obviously the original intent of their capture was not for research, but we now know more about the species than ever before and are better equipped to manage them in crisis while in the wild.

Can you enlighten me on the gorillas? I'm not familiar with what has occurred with them at all.

Honestly, had this been posted in any other are of the DIS I would not have responded, but I knew here I wouldn't be flamed for having a different opinion.

 

[Mathfailure]

Mike

I told my husband about the Toledo zoo, and we were both excited. The children have a week off at the end of March, and we will be going. I cannot wait for lunch!

If you know of something else that would thrill a 12 year old boy who is quite the character, please let me know. We would like to make a three day trip out of it. Thanks. And I know Cedar Point is not open yet

Kathleen

 

[OrlandoMike]

The art museum in Toledo is one of the best in the nation....ya I know......Toledo, really? But ya it is! And school kids annually have field trips there. Even as a kid, I always enjoyed a trip to the museum and the zoo! There is also something called the Imagination Station, not quite sure what it is, it is new, but I think its some sort of science museum.....

http://www.imaginationstationtoledo.org/content/

And dont you worry, Cedar Point opens in 77 days!

And if you venture over to the East Side of town, you can crab a quick lunch at Tony Packo's, a pretty famous restaurant from the M*A*S*H days...

Let me know how you like your trip to the Toledo Zoo! And please get pics of the cafe.....there is literally NOTHING on line about it!

 

[OrlandoMike]

I'm watching the press conference live.....

I really have to re-think if I will ever visit a Seaworld park again!

The stupidity coming out of the CEO's mouth is beyond ridiculous!

 

[enigmaMN]

I'm watching the press conference live.....

I really have to re-think if I will ever visit a Seaworld park again!

The stupidity coming out of the CEO's mouth is beyond ridiculous!

Hmm.. I haven't heard anything stupid come out of his mouth yet, but I will say that I missed the first portion of the press conference. What I have heard is a lot of reporters trying to bait him into making judgments, etc. about things that just aren't known yet.

 

[OrlandoMike]

I guess what I am having a problem with is the whole "Business as usual" mentality.

I understand the educational aspects of what Seaworld does...and I applaud them for that.

But the whole "the whales are going to continue to do tricks because that's what our audience wants to see" thing is what really bothers me. I really feel that Seaworld and parks like them need to re-evaluate how they showcase these animals for us to see and learn from.....There has to be a better way!

 

[soulmates]

I guess what I am having a problem with is the whole "Business as usual" mentality.

I understand the educational aspects of what Seaworld does...and I applaud them for that.

But the whole "the whales are going to continue to do tricks because that's what our audience wants to see" thing is what really bothers me. I really feel that Seaworld and parks like them need to re-evaluate how they showcase these animals for us to see and learn from.....There has to be a better way!

It's sad, very sad that things are status quo

 

[C&G'sMama]

But the whole "the whales are going to continue to do tricks because that's what our audience wants to see" thing is what really bothers me. I really feel that Seaworld and parks like them need to re-evaluate how they showcase these animals for us to see and learn from.....There has to be a better way!

That to me is telling that they are more interested in the bottom line than the animals. You could argue "But if they didn't have the shows, they couldn't make the money and the conservation efforts would be dead" But I agree with Mike there has to be a better or different way. CEO's are so afraid to take risks. That's what gets companies in trouble. After something like this they'd probably be better of changing things and use this as a time to leverage off of that.

My 2 cents.

 

[wallyb]

I guess what I am having a problem with is the whole "Business as usual" mentality.

dito

 

[mykidsintow]

I am not really sure what I think about all this. I know, I know... rare, right?

I think making wild animals into a show is wrong. However, I think many animals (like dolphins) are very intelligent and would prefer some sort of show and training vs just being held captive to swim in circles all the time, bored. I haven't recently spoken to said animals, but I know dogs at the pound much prefer being taken out and played with over just leaving them in a kennel, based on their reactions.. again we didn't have a personal pow-wow.

That said... I am all for animal research and trying to help endanger species. I prefer the animals being researched to be ones that were hurt or in danger... that may not otherwise be able to live in the wild (an eagle with a broken wing, etc). That seems much more sensible to me. If you want to catch and whale and learn about them... why not get one that has beached itself and would otherwise die anyway? Don't go catch a young healthy wild one and throw it in a toiletbowl to live its life. I most certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in a couple rooms of my house the rest of my life and most certainly not a room the size of a bathroom regardless of how nice you made it.... and how many times you cleaned it. I mean at least take me out to play with me.... but even still. (Shuttup, wally)

I would like to one day take my kids to sea world. I went once at about 4 yrs old, my kids have never been. I wanted to wait long enough for Julia to be of age to swim with the dolphins. We do go to some zoos (tho I have been to a few I would never return to). We go to a lot of wild life refuges...

I don't think lions need to jump through fire. I don't think dolphin or whales should be forced to do huge shows, but I think they do need to be engaged in some form.

What I am not sure about (because I don't know the facts) is this same whale being linked to 2 prior deaths? Hmmmm.... I just don't know

 

[mykidsintow]

This made me go read of the other incidents...

I was not there to witness any of them. I have no idea how they happened. Someone broke into sea world to swim with teh whales. They found the mans body draped over the whales back and at some point the whale had bit him...

Ummm..... the whale could have been trying to help him. Its not like he ate him. If he was draped over his back.

They also reported perhaps he nipped at the ppl that got in so save this trainer... was he being vicious... was he protecting her, was he trying to help them? Who knows.. its a WILD animal... if you choose to work with them you take a risk.

I just question the intentions of the whale... he could be catching flack when he was just trying to help and protect... who knows. He coulda been trying to bite her head off and just missed, I don't know. I just think if he were really trying to hurt someone, he would have done much more harm by now. Its not like he has the brain capacity to harm individuals at only times that would make it seem accidental....

??? Am I making any sense at all?

 

[OrlandoMike]

Most of the reports around town are the whale is not all that bad. A little frustrated perhaps, who knows?

They are thinking he grabbed her pony tail because he thought it was some sort of food. Sad story, the trainer was letting her hair grow to donate it to Locks of Love....

I do know Seaworld has NO intentions of putting the whale down, he did nothing wrong....

 

[f86sabjf]

heres one for you . If he was a viscious man killing dog he would have already exterminated but since he can make them millions he lives. Me thinks a double standard is in place.

 

[Ericadawn]

I think part of the "status quo" decision is because the new company, Merlin, has owned them less than a year and never had to deal with a major incident before.

Killing the whale really isn't an option...they don't want a WAR with PETA on their hands and that's what would happen.

In 2002, a Tiger bit off a trainer's arm at Busch Gardens but they let it live as well. In 1989, an elephant at BG trampled a trainer to death, but I don't know what resulted from that except no more Elephant rides...

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Killing wild animals, held in captivity for being wild animals is never right. Putting down domesticated animals that cannot be controlled and who have attacked, is a different matter.

I'm honestly not in favor of killing 'gators... we've encroached on their territory so they get to die? Something wrong with that philosophy.

Isolating Tilli is fine. Doing so in that tiny pool is not. I don't care what the OSHA regulations are, that's too small for that huge whale. Period. I don't care that there are other places that "do it worse." As my Mother used to say, we aren't talking about others we are talking about YOU. Seaworld should have the resources to do it right, period.

I do not believe that this whale should ever have been in contact with human trainers. The beautiful woman who has lost her life was not unseasoned, not unfamiliar with the whales, and look what happened. If he is going to be retained for his procreation capabilities, then keep him in a setting where he can be observed but not expected to perform. Let's hope no more lives are lost while Seaworld works out which is the most lucrative action.