How do you feel about Sea World, ethically? Is AK better?

[nugov2]

Orca are not endangered, not subject to poaching, and they thrive in their pods in the waters they inhabit. Whatever the reality of SeaWorld's rescue program with other sea life, it doesn't involve orca.

Some here have asserted that trained captive animals can't just be released. Yep, that's true. But why has SeaWorld continued to inbreed their captive population in order to expand and continue their exhibitions? Corporate greed?

Disney had big plans to breed their dolphins and probably still would if not for all the bad PR. They have just as much corporate greed. There original dolphins were captured in Florida for no other purpose but to be on display. They have all since died. One was so aggressive they believe that dolphin contributed to the death of one of the other dolphins. The dolphins life span is more than half in captivity, yet they still continue to keep them, so why are they ok to support?

We're actually not now, lol. Now, to be fair, that decision was made BEFORE we knew about the lawsuits, for other reasons. But, I will also say that once I heard about the Sea World stuff, it did make me wonder about Discovery Cove. They're owned by the same parent company - do they treat their animals better?

I would seriously skip AK and EP as there treatment of animals is just as bad. Not only the dolphins and giraffes, but keeping elephants in captivity is extremely cruel. AK also made the list of top 10 worst zoos. I'd hate to see you supporting an equally cruel establishment.

 

[Kbee]

Orca are not endangered, not subject to poaching, and they thrive in their pods in the waters they inhabit. Whatever the reality of SeaWorld's rescue program with other sea life, it doesn't involve orca.

Some here have asserted that trained captive animals can't just be released. Yep, that's true. But why has SeaWorld continued to inbreed their captive population in order to expand and continue their exhibitions? Corporate greed?

Why does AK breed their captive animals?

 

[luvsJack]

I have never understood the whole being forced to perform for humans being so bad unless they are torturing the animals to force them. For example my cats are often "forced" to do a trick to get their little kitty treats. If they don't come when I shake the bag and don't want to thats fine we don't hurt them or anything but they don't get the treat. 99% of the time they do the trick though.

Dogs are domesticated animals but at one point they weren't. They became that way because we have confined them for years and years and they now don't know any other way. Some of these animals are the same way. They were born in captivity and would die in the wild.

Someone above mentioned taking the whales babies from them. When I was last at seaworld (in january in San Diego) there was a baby whale. The baby came out with mom and sister in the show. It didn't do any tricks (I doubt it knows any yet) but just swam around in the middle while everyone else did tricks and got thrown a fish every once in a while with the others. So it doesn't seem like it was taken away. Actually it seemed like they even let them stay together even during the little show.

Same thing at my last visit in Orlando. The baby came out with the mother.

And I agree, these animals are not being beaten like the elephants or lions in circuses of old, so how is doing these tricks so bad?

 

[ArwenMarie]

I hope Sea World is able to rebound from all of this. There is a lot of good that they do, and the caretakers do care passionately about the animals. I know they're planning a major overhaul to their killer whale habitats.

I also hope this thread manages to beat the odds and sticks around.

The new habitats look much better but it looks like it is going to be a looong time before they are built unfortunately.

I hope they are able to rebound too.

 

[Shmily1]

The babies were with the mamas in Orlando the last time I went several months ago. They were so cute. All the trainers/cast seemed very caring towards the animals. I think they are doing a great job of taking care of what they do.

 

[North of Mouse]

DH just saw this morning that two more major lawsuits have been filed against Sea World. Basically claims about inadequate space for the orcas, drugging them, etc... Among other things. He isn't sure how he feels about giving them money to support such practices. I know there's been a lot of really negative claims. What are your thoughts?

On the flip side, is Animal Kingdom any different- I mean they're still holding animals in captivity. Or are their facilities better?

Some people don't have enough to do, so they stir up trouble wherever they think they can do the most harm. We have always/will always enjoy Sea World.

AK and Sea World are two different type parks, but to compare just the animals being in captivity, they are one and the same to us - see no problems with either.

Not like these animals don't have their share of enemies in the wild - get better care, and most probably live longer in captivity (exceptions to either side).

Most people - including us - would never see some of these beautiful animals if there were no parks like these. 'Every zoo' would be a 'no-no' also, so where do some of you 'draw the line'???

As with most things, everyone has their own opinions, and are welcome to live by them -

 

[North of Mouse]

I wonder how Disney has stayed under the radar regarding the dolphins at Epcot. That tank is horrible.

Oh, really? Where is the proof of that? Never heard/saw anything that would show that about Disney's care for their animals - to the contrary everything is clean and the animals healthy looking to me.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Oh, really? Where is the proof of that? Never heard/saw anything that would show that about Disney's care for their animals - to the contrary everything is clean and the animals healthy looking to me.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I think that tank is way worse than anything at Seaworld. No fresh air, no sunlight.

 

[Mickeyluver37]

A marine biologist friend (who worked at Sea World Orlando)of mine puts zero credence in the recent Sea World documentaries. Take that as you will.

Generally, animals that are trained while in captivity would be unable to survive in the wild if they'd been released instead of trained, and most places that keep and train animals are doing plenty of good behind the scenes to ensure species survival.

I feel like you should look at motive. Sea Workd us being bashed for ratings. LOL.

Of course they get no credit for the large amount of rescue work they do. And that is what is going to be cut when this thing loses money

And I do think if you decide you can't do one of these parks you can't do any of that this picking and. choosing is just a joke

Blackfish is a propaganda film. I will say that if you want to target the animal entertainment industry for the treatment of the animals being kept, focus on the entire industry. Blackfish was a hacket job focused on the biggest name in the industry in order to make the biggest "splash". It is not a documentary in that it does not show both sides of the coin. Seaworld does a lot of conservation work all over the world that is not blasted in the headlines every day but is important nonetheless.

I dont really see this ever being addressed by those that care about nothing but taking the whole company down. Sure, Seaworld is a for-profit company, but a lot of money is put into conservation and rescue efforts. Where is this money going to come from if there is no more Seaworld?

 

[nugov2]

Oh, really? Where is the proof of that? Never heard/saw anything that would show that about Disney's care for their animals - to the contrary everything is clean and the animals healthy looking to me.

Like I said the information is a Google search away. Disney's original dolphins were ripped from the wild for no other reason than profit. They weren't sick or in need of rescue. Disney was in need of profits. They allowed a dolphin that was aggressive to be with the other dolphins and was responsible for the death of another dolphin. The one dolphin they currently purchased from the Navy could have been released but disney chooses to place him on display for financial gain not for the animals best interest. They are kept in a very small tank. I'm not sure what other proof you need besides just that fact alone. That environment is not the best place for them. Disney doesn't even offer them true sunlight and fresh air...they get it from lamps and machines. There is no outside access for those dolphins. I don't know about you but that seems very cruel.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I was wondering when we'd have another Seaworld thread down here on the Community Boards...

 

[bcla]

I dont really see this ever being addressed by those that care about nothing but taking the whole company down. Sure, Seaworld is a for-profit company, but a lot of money is put into conservation and rescue efforts. Where is this money going to come from if there is no more Seaworld?

For the longest time it was owned by Anheuser-Busch. I understand the SeaWorld holdings were really just an addition to their portfolio of assets that included Busch Gardens.

Some of these types of attractions were at one time non-profit. We had one sea park here in the San Francisco Bay Area that started as a for-profit attraction and then somehow became a "non-profit educational organization" called the Marine World Foundation. It was originally known as "Marine World Africa USA" and started as a couple of attractions that merged, including a water theme park owned by ABC (which is now part of Disney). I'm not sure how it went down, but by the 80s the whole place was considered non-profit even though there was little that made it seem that way. They didn't have many theme park style rides but they did install a water slide. Then they moved as a non-profit to a new location and stayed a non-profit until Six Flags bought them out. Even with a new name, the road that leads there is "Marine World Parkway". There was actually another "Marine World Parkway" at the previous location, but it's now just "Marine Parkway" and is the HQ of Oracle. The new park had an orca until 2012. It was paired with a dolphin due to a USDA requirement. However, it was determined that they didn't get along and they had to send it elsewhere. It's currently one of the orcas at SeaWorld in San Diego. It's kind of sad since they generally had two at a time.

We've also had controversies. A for-profit company built the Aquarium of the Bay in San Francisco, which was controversial because of what it did to the water and due to claims about how much tax revenue they might bring. They finally built it and revenues were pretty low. Now the company has spun it off as a non-profit.

 

[Ceila]

Because dogs are a domestic animal, they have been for thousands of years. Orcas are not.
And the issue isn't giving a dog a bone to roll over - the issue is - inadequate living conditions, forced breeding in captivity, drugging the whales so they'll perform/be safer etc... Any one that even TRIES to compare a captive orca being confined in an extremely too small tank, being drugged to a pet dog, needs to give their head a shake, or a lesson in logic and reasoning.

First, the post of yours that I quoted did not just refer to orcas. Second, it's hypocritical of you to exempt dogs based on your list of problems with Sea World's treatment of orcas, as many of the issues you raise are absolutely true of pets as well. Not all are treated as well as you seem to imagine. Third, I would think that someone with your attitude would believe that the domestication of any animal was wrong, no matter how long ago the process started. Or did you think that animals just chose to become inbred and taken from their packs, etc.?

FTR, while I recognize that there is room for improvement in places such as SW, I also know that they do incredible work in rehabilitation, conservation, and education and will continue to support them. Oh, and I have an adorable dog as a pet, too.

 

[Jaime4004]

Proud seaworld passholder. And can't wait to go back to Discovery Cove in the summer. For me, seaworld, AK and other zoos/aquariums are no different...

 

[spc67carr]

We're actually not now, lol. Now, to be fair, that decision was made BEFORE we knew about the lawsuits, for other reasons. But, I will also say that once I heard about the Sea World stuff, it did make me wonder about Discovery Cove. They're owned by the same parent company - do they treat their animals better?

I just found it odd that 2 days ago you did post in your other threads about SeaWorld and Discovery Cove and said those are must do things for you during your vacation and your kids are looking forward to it. In a very short amount of time you have totally changed your opinion. You went from being excited to go, to absolutely disgusted with SeaWorld (so it seems anyways). The issues with SeaWorld aren't new the accusations and those recent lawsuits just repeat what people have been saying for years. You must have known about that. The way whales and dolphins are being held hasn't changed in those two days since you changed your mind. On another note you will find that lots of people "piggyback" on lawsuits against big companies. If one pops up you can bet on others to follow... for whatever reason.
What I am trying to say is, that if your change of heart is solely based on those lawsuits I would rethink it. I did read some of your threads because we are visiting DC and SW this summer and you asked good questions. You seemed so happy to go and made it sound like your kids are too. I find it sad that 2 recent lawsuits changed your mind sooo drastically. I am not saying that i defend SeaWorld. I don't know enough about it to say those claims are true or false. I can imagine that there is "some" truth behind it but if it really were that horrific I can't imagine that they would still be operating. I assume that most people that work there are animal lovers or care about animals and there would be way more outcry if it really were THAT bad... but that's again just my opinion. Anyways... I hope you have a great vacation no matter where you decide to spend your time.

 

[mummabear]

Rubbish, it's not something they decided to do out of the goodness of their heart. OSHA forced SeaWorld to take the humans out of the water after the last death of a human in the pool caused by an orca. SeaWorld did not take that action on their own, they fought OSHA every step of the way. And lost in every one of their efforts to go back to business as usual.

My statement is not rubbish thank you.
The first poster stated that nothing had changed and I stated that it in fact had changed, the motives behind the change don't change the fact that it has changed.

 

[nugov2]

My statement is not rubbish thank you.
The first poster stated that nothing had changed and I stated that it in fact had changed, the motives behind the change don't change the fact that it has changed.

The thing is Disney would be breeding their dolphins if they had their way, but they were blocked. I find it funny the free pass AK/EP are given while SW is the bad one. They both have the same practices in place. They both place animals in captivity in areas that are not even close to adequate for the animals living in them. They both cause IMO mental and physical harm (not b/c the caregivers abuse them) from the conditions they live in. What is the size of AK. I think it is a couple of miles maybe less in size total. Elephants typically roam 80 miles..so that small couple of acres they live in at AK is ok? Again it is relatively the same as putting an Orca in a small tank it is just the tank appears smaller to our eyes than the couple of acres the elephant has, but I am sure the elephants feel just as cramped as the Orca.

The argument is that elephants are endangered, but if Disney cared about them they would move them to an elephant rescue where they have hundreds of miles that are safe to roam...right? Again, If you have an objection against all animals in captivity I get it, but trying to make SW the devil while rationalizing all the reasons why it is ok for Disney to do the exact same thing is IMO laughable. You can spin the story anyway you want, but by supporting AK and EP you are supporting the same thing as if you went to SW.

 

[mshanson3121]

I just found it odd that 2 days ago you did post in your other threads about SeaWorld and Discovery Cove and said those are must do things for you during your vacation and your kids are looking forward to it. In a very short amount of time you have totally changed your opinion. You went from being excited to go, to absolutely disgusted with SeaWorld (so it seems anyways). The issues with SeaWorld aren't new the accusations and those recent lawsuits just repeat what people have been saying for years. You must have known about that. The way whales and dolphins are being held hasn't changed in those two days since you changed your mind. On another note you will find that lots of people "piggyback" on lawsuits against big companies. If one pops up you can bet on others to follow... for whatever reason.
What I am trying to say is, that if your change of heart is solely based on those lawsuits I would rethink it. I did read some of your threads because we are visiting DC and SW this summer and you asked good questions. You seemed so happy to go and made it sound like your kids are too. I find it sad that 2 recent lawsuits changed your mind sooo drastically. I am not saying that i defend SeaWorld. I don't know enough about it to say those claims are true or false. I can imagine that there is "some" truth behind it but if it really were that horrific I can't imagine that they would still be operating. I assume that most people that work there are animal lovers or care about animals and there would be way more outcry if it really were THAT bad... but that's again just my opinion. Anyways... I hope you have a great vacation no matter where you decide to spend your time.

I would love to go to Discovery Cove, and I do think the kids would enjoy it, and they'll probably be disappointed. I am really disappointed about it. I really am. But, almost every single one of you said we had too much planned, and when DH read the thread he agreed.... so. What do you do? Something needed to go, and out of the two, I figured they would rather miss DC than SW. Myself, I would rather drop HS. But, when deciding what to drop, I had to factor in cost, and DC is FAR more expensive than SW. And out of all the parks - DC is the biggest gamble - my son has really big water sensory issues. Now, chances are he'd go and be fine, but it's doubtful either child would last all day. And... I guess when I actually sat down and was realistic about it... $500-600 is a lot of money for a half day.

But no, I didn't know about any of those. I don't pay much attention to news. And certainly not about a place I had no intention of going, and I'm also in Canada, so we don't hear as much American stuff. I'd heard some vague rumors but it was in one ear and out the other. So, I was pretty well floored. The only reason I found out was because DH was trying to get the Sea World website to work (still wont here) and the news articles came up in a search. I'm not comfortable in going, but DH still wants to. So... we'll go. I mean, I hate to saying it - but yes, of course the kids will love it. I just HATE giving my money to a place that has a known reputation for this

 

[mshanson3121]

First, the post of yours that I quoted did not just refer to orcas. Second, it's hypocritical of you to exempt dogs based on your list of problems with Sea World's treatment of orcas, as many of the issues you raise are absolutely true of pets as well. Not all are treated as well as you seem to imagine. Third, I would think that someone with your attitude would believe that the domestication of any animal was wrong, no matter how long ago the process started. Or did you think that animals just chose to become inbred and taken from their packs, etc.?

FTR, while I recognize that there is room for improvement in places such as SW, I also know that they do incredible work in rehabilitation, conservation, and education and will continue to support them. Oh, and I have an adorable dog as a pet, too.

Yeah except apparently you're unaware that the issue at hand is SEA WORLD and their treatment of their orcas. If Sea World was treating their animals as well as many people treat their pets, it'd pretty well be a non-issue, wouldn't it? If Sea World was providing adequate health care, shelter, lodging, treatment and feeding and meeting all laws and regulations,the things most owners provide their small domesticated pets - then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yes, of course some people abuse their pets, and those people are jerks that deserve penalty. But why are you even remotely trying to lump everything all in together? It makes NO sense. I mean, you're not even following a logical/rational train of thought or comparison. Anyways, whatever. Argue if you want, but I'm done.

 

[Ceila]

Yeah except apparently you're unaware that the issue at hand is SEA WORLD and their treatment of their orcas. If Sea World was treating their animals as well as many people treat their pets, it'd pretty well be a non-issue, wouldn't it? If Sea World was providing adequate health care, shelter, lodging, treatment and feeding and meeting all laws and regulations,the things most owners provide their small domesticated pets - then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yes, of course some people abuse their pets, and those people are jerks that deserve penalty. But why are you even remotely trying to lump everything all in together? It makes NO sense. I mean, you're not even following a logical/rational train of thought or comparison. Anyways, whatever. Argue if you want, but I'm done.

Wow, that was rude and unnecessary. My original question was to someone who mentioned several types of animals. You obviously only want to argue and stir the pot, not have a rational discussion, so carry on.