How do you feel about Sea World, ethically? Is AK better?

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

I feel like you should look at motive. Sea Workd us being bashed for ratings. LOL.

Of course they get no credit for the large amount of rescue work they do. And that is what is going to be cut when this thing loses money

And I do think if you decide you can't do one of these parks you can't do any of that this picking and. choosing is just a joke

 

[itchin2go]

SeaWorld can maintain that a lot of their animals wouldn't survive in the wild but let's face it - many of them were captured (in the wild) with the express purpose of being sold to be some form of 'entertainment' at SeaWorld or somewhere else.

This is not what bothers me the most. A LONG time ago, people made the poor decision to do this - capture these animals in the wild to perform for humans. The Disney dolphins are also an example of this. Sea World doesn't do this anymore - and they're quick to point that out to you. I've seen SeaWorld ads lately touting this.

The problem that I have is that they DON'T tell you that they continue TO THIS VERY DAY to breed more Orcas in captivity. They DON'T point this out in commercials.

I think the biggest problem I have with SeaWorld is the dishonesty or the selective honesty. I don't really want to support that. If you know (or think) that capturing these animals in the wild is wrong (which SeaWorld seems to, hence why they're pointing it out in commercials), how do you justify breeding the same animals in captivity?

Not all animals fare badly in captivity. Some have a longer life expectancy in captivity, for instance. Orcas, on the other hand, do not do well in captivity, partially because of the obvious: we simply cannot provide them with a living environment that comes close to their natural one.

SeaWorld DOES participate in certain conservation efforts. I don't think that absolves them of the Orca controversy. They need to let the Orca thing go, and strike off in a different direction, instead of doubling down with this bad hand - which is exactly what they're doing now.

 

[kelleybean]

I just read the book out about Sea World by the former trainer (John Hargrove) and it's fascinating. I highly recommend it. Really interesting (and frankly troubling) behind-the-scenes look at what goes into keeping the whales.

 

[Jennytoon]

I don't understand why people think that animals being trained to perform in shows is negative. (Housing / environment / suitability to be kept in captivity is a separate issue).

I have a dog. I have trained my dog to do tricks. Most people I know do not consider this demeaning to the dog. I have also trained my dog to behave in ways that are socially acceptable -- most people would consider this the minimal responsibility of a dog owner. As far as my dog is concerned, lying under the table at dinner (instead of begging) is every bit as much a "trick" as rolling over.

Now, I understand that wild animals are not the same as domestic species, but the principles of training are pretty much identical -- reward for desired behaviors. Even animals that are not trained to perform *are* trained -- they are trained in behaviors which make them able to be managed. For instance, the animals at AK are trained to respond to a certain sound by heading back to their home structures for feeding and bedding down for the night. From the animal's perspective, this trained behavior is not significantly different than any other trained behavior like a trick that they might learn, assuming that the learned behavior is not damaging to their physical well-being (for instance some breeds of dogs are not harmed by "sitting pretty" on hind legs, but for other breeds the behavior is physically stressful and damaging if repeated frequently).

I admire the tremendous amount of work that has gone into structuring AK so the animals can be viewed apparently "in the wild". But I don't think that the fact that they are not in shows makes AK a more meritorious park than one that does have animal performances.

 

[itchin2go]

I don't understand why people think that animals being trained to perform in shows is negative. (Housing / environment / suitability to be kept in captivity is a separate issue).

I have a dog. I have trained my dog to do tricks. Most people I know do not consider this demeaning to the dog. I have also trained my dog to behave in ways that are socially acceptable -- most people would consider this the minimal responsibility of a dog owner. As far as my dog is concerned, lying under the table at dinner (instead of begging) is every bit as much a "trick" as rolling over.

Now, I understand that wild animals are not the same as domestic species, but the principles of training are pretty much identical -- reward for desired behaviors. Even animals that are not trained to perform *are* trained -- they are trained in behaviors which make them able to be managed. For instance, the animals at AK are trained to respond to a certain sound by heading back to their home structures for feeding and bedding down for the night. From the animal's perspective, this trained behavior is not significantly different than any other trained behavior like a trick that they might learn, assuming that the learned behavior is not damaging to their physical well-being (for instance some breeds of dogs are not harmed by "sitting pretty" on hind legs, but for other breeds the behavior is physically stressful and damaging if repeated frequently).

I admire the tremendous amount of work that has gone into structuring AK so the animals can be viewed apparently "in the wild". But I don't think that the fact that they are not in shows makes AK a more meritorious park than one that does have animal performances.

Interesting point. It's been awhile since I saw Blackfish, but I don't even think the "training" was one of the critical issues in that - except to the extent that NOT getting the desired treat led the Orcas to become aggressive. If I remember correctly, the knocks on SeaWorld had more to do with continuing to breed and use Tillikum in shows despite knowing of his violent past - and then the greater question of the ethics of having these particular animals - Orcas - in captivity, and the danger to their human trainers - and the gall of SeaWorld to blame one of the human trainers who lost her life to this theme park, even though the facts didn't back up their theory - because blaming her would enable to them to go on with business as usual, and not blaming her would mean major change, and perhaps (probably) loss of profits.

For me, though, watching animals perform tricks is not entertainment. I don't mean a dog learning to "sit" on command. I'm thinking more of circus animals.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Just for the record.....AK Amina ate very well keep, have a.great deal of space/ living room.

The orginial animals of AK were something like 85% animals obtained as excess, from other parks/ zoos and 6% caught in the wild. The balance from bedding programs.

The best way to help am al is to lrea. About them and that is best done with good -zoos, parks lime AK and programs.

Dispite what the media is parroting these days , these.animals love the relationships with there keepers and train ers and actually enjoy the shows they put on.

they are not wild and would have a very hard time surviving in the wild.


AKK

 

[Xennia]

DH just saw this morning that two more major lawsuits have been filed against Sea World. Basically claims about inadequate space for the orcas, drugging them, etc... Among other things. He isn't sure how he feels about giving them money to support such practices. I know there's been a lot of really negative claims. What are your thoughts?

On the flip side, is Animal Kingdom any different- I mean they're still holding animals in captivity. Or are their facilities better?

I hate sea world for this. Animals don't need to perform for humans. I hate them so much.

Anyone who thinks its ok to abuse an animal for money should be locked up. Dogs are not the same as whales or Dolphins or sea lions. They deserve to live free.

 

[larryz]

...many of them were captured (in the wild) with the express purpose of being sold to be some form of 'entertainment' at SeaWorld or somewhere else.

Entertainment, or education? Would you even know what an orca is without SeaWorld?

 

[itchin2go]

Would you even know what an orca is without SeaWorld?

Yeah - there was that movie "Orca".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca_(film)

There's no question that SeaWorld and Orcas are irretrievably intertwined in most people's minds. I don't think that justifies what SeaWorld continues to do to this day. Maybe we/they didn't always know what we do now. When you know better, you do better.

 

[BugsDaddy]

Blackfish is a propaganda film. I will say that if you want to target the animal entertainment industry for the treatment of the animals being kept, focus on the entire industry. Blackfish was a hacket job focused on the biggest name in the industry in order to make the biggest "splash". It is not a documentary in that it does not show both sides of the coin. Seaworld does a lot of conservation work all over the world that is not blasted in the headlines every day but is important nonetheless.

 

[larryz]

Yeah - there was that movie "Orca".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca_(film)

SeaWorld was around long before there was a movie about killer whales -- and the movie was made partly based on their popularity from their exposure at SeaWorld. Besides, a lot of what we know about orcas comes from the research they've done at SeaWorld and other oceanariums...

I've been to two of them (Orlando and San Antonio); they're clean, fun, family-oriented and I never saw an animal mistreated (not even a sea gull) while I was there...

 

[ArwenMarie]

SeaWorld DOES participate in certain conservation efforts. I don't think that absolves them of the Orca controversy. They need to let the Orca thing go, and strike off in a different direction, instead of doubling down with this bad hand - which is exactly what they're doing now.

Or if they are going to keep them, maybe SeaWorld just needs to own it...yeah, we keep orcas in a tank. They're as fine as they can be for orcas kept in a tank. We keep them because people like to see them.

 

[itchin2go]

Blackfish is a propaganda film. I will say that if you want to target the animal entertainment industry for the treatment of the animals being kept, focus on the entire industry. Blackfish was a hacket job focused on the biggest name in the industry in order to make the biggest "splash". It is not a documentary in that it does not show both sides of the coin. Seaworld does a lot of conservation work all over the world that is not blasted in the headlines every day but is important nonetheless.

I agree to an extent, except that:

(1) I believe the makers of Blackfish asked for input from SeaWorld, but the request was declined. Lots of reasons why that might be - both pro-SeaWorld and anti-SeaWorld, but the request was made.

(2) Some of the assertions made in Blackfish are easily verifiable. If you look into them, you'll find this. The "ponytail" controversy was the thing that bothered me the most, and if you look into it, you'll find that what was asserted in Blackfish is supported. That trainer didn't deserve to be made the scapegoat with false facts, so that SeaWorld could go on "business as usual".

I will say again (and then leave this thread to the worthwhile opinions of others) that it is also fact that SeaWorld contributes conservation efforts in other avenues. It does not (to me) justify their continued breeding program of orcas. Commercials touting the fact that you don't capture orcas from the wild (anymore) doesn't change the fact that you continue to breed orcas in captivity. If it's wrong to capture them from the wild, how do you justify breeding them to live in captivity forever? If they would stop this breeding program, it would go a long way towards changing my opinion of them. I think SeaWorld has utility. I just can't support the continued breeding program or putting trainers in harm's way.

 

[Planogirl]

I'm still undecided. There are too many zealots spouting off nonsense on both sides of the discussion when the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. It's hard to find that truth but I put more weight on comments made by people that work there rather than outsiders. I believe that plenty of good, caring people work at SeaWorld.

 

[LaurenT]

My personal opinion is that if you are going to boycott Sea World then you are hypocritical if you go to any place that keeps animals or has an animal show. That includes Epcot, since they have dolphins. Someone with the agenda to stop animals in captivity could probably find something at any place that has animals that could be construed as cruel or mistreatment. People have just chosen Sea World's orcas to focus on.

Until I see proof of mistreatment by an unbiased party I'm not going to stop going to places with animals, including Sea World.

I respect your opinion, but I think it's a bit offensive to call me hypocritical for not going to sea world when I go to AK. I have my reasons. I don't think keeping an animal in a natural environment to live as they please and forcing one to perform while withholding food if they don't is the same thing. That's my take on it and you don't have to agree ... I don't have a problem with you feeling the way you do, I just have a problem with you calling me a hypocrite.

 

[Ambear]

I enjoyed going to sea world and I still would like to go back... But I can see where change might be a good thing here. Orcas may not be the best animals to showcase. Maybe it's time to educate on another species of animal that is more suited to being held in a zoo type setting? It's a bit like how it's not as acceptable to the general public that elephants are kept in circuses. For a lot of the same reasons as an animal like an orca.

 

[mummabear]

I will admit that I am a little uncomfortable with SW, b/c of some of the specific issues/lawsuits in recent years. Though I am by no means an expert. We did go in 2008 and enjoyed it, but I am not anxious to go back.

I have no problem with AK though, it is no different than any zoo (and better than most). Yes, animals are in captivity, but the keepers and trainers treat them very well and strive to give them a lifestyle that is as close to "natural" as possible.

I kind of consider animals in zoos (and AK) to be ambassadors. If there aren't some of their species that people can go see and feel a connection to, they aren't going to care about them or be willing to protect them (or their habitats.) So while I do feel a little bad about the ones in captivity, it is for the greater good, to raise awareness and ultimately cause more people to make choices that benefit the ones that are living in the wild.

And this is Seaworlds philosophy as well.

 

[RainforestGuy]

Not a big fan of SeaWorld due to the issues mentioned, however AK is very different as said earlier. It is essentially a zoo on a much larger budget, and that is used very well to give the animals the care they receive in a regular zoo and then some. I noticed that there is a pretty good herd of hippopotamus, for example, most zoos are only able to support one or two while AK has a whole herd. Usually, I'm not a fan of animal attractions, but it looks like AK is zoo-like enough to give the animals what they need yet has the qualities of an amusement park that will attract the GP.

 

[ArwenMarie]

To the comments saying that DAK is different (which I agree with)...what about the dolphins at Epcot?

Disney keeps marine mammals in captivity too and that tank they have them in is horribly depressing, no fresh air, no sunlight. Hopefully once the current ones die they don't get any new ones.

 

[Ambear]

To the comments saying that DAK is different (which I agree with)...what about the dolphins at Epcot?

Disney keeps marine mammals in captivity too and that tank they have them in is horribly depressing, no fresh air, no sunlight. Hopefully once the current ones die they don't get any new ones.

Unfortunately it seems it would take the press level that blackfish achieved to initiate change or awareness. Not sure how that'd happen since most people don't know about those dolphins. I definitely had no idea... And how much could a documentary retrieve from a company as guarded as disney. It seems like it'd be tough.